Here is an example why the British Motorcycle Industries failed the Quality was so poor from Factory they needed more PDI to make them road worthy

[Mark Gregory]

If you ever wonder why the British Motorcycle Industries failed read this.

 

Back then [surprise, surprise] a policy of heavy discounting was the order of the day on the majority of London forecourts. Given the necessity that new Nortons and Triumphs required a far more thorough PDI than other contemporary machines, NVT was fully aware that, whenever a vigorous “discount dealer” bought a large number of bikes, there was – shall we say – a likelihood they might reach consumers in a potentially troublesome state. Our sales philosophy, therefore, was something of a balancing act.

The illustration – from early October 1974 – depicts a line-up of recently supplied Commandos and Tridents. While Elite and NVT both needed the 100-bike sale for PR purposes, Ron [pictured on right] only had space to display about 35 “up front”; the residue was in the store.  

 

http://www.britishdealernews.co.uk/general-news/tribute-dealer-ron-welling

 

I was greatly saddened to hear of the recent death of Ron Welling, who was for many years the personable sales manager at Elite Motors in Tooting, south London.  

Motorcycle sales, especially in the superbike category, were very buoyant during the mid-1970s, in which era Elite Motors was reputedly the country’s most voluminous seller…though possibly matched by George Lloyd in Scotland. Full credit for this achievement should be awarded to Ron and his team, for Elite had strong competition from several other well-known emporiums, mostly located in London, including Coburn & Hughes, Comerfords, Ryes, and so on.

The selling of Nortons and Triumphs to the trade was never quite as easy as it sounds. Yes, our old-fashioned machines were well regarded and had some unique design features. Unfortunately, they were not manufactured to the same high standard as Honda, Yamaha et al, and lacked the desirability of some of the exciting hardware available from BMW, Ducati, Laverda, Moto Guzzi etc. 

Back then [surprise, surprise] a policy of heavy discounting was the order of the day on the majority of London forecourts. Given the necessity that new Nortons and Triumphs required a far more thorough PDI than other contemporary machines, NVT was fully aware that, whenever a vigorous “discount dealer” bought a large number of bikes, there was – shall we say – a likelihood they might reach consumers in a potentially troublesome state. Our sales philosophy, therefore, was something of a balancing act.

The illustration – from early October 1974 – depicts a line-up of recently supplied Commandos and Tridents. While Elite and NVT both needed the 100-bike sale for PR purposes, Ron [pictured on right] only had space to display about 35 “up front”; the residue was in the store.  

Folk with an enquiring mind will be asking “So where’s the great balancing act?” Here was a volume dealer buying a huge stock of “potentially troublesome” bikes in one go – and what’s more – right at the end of the sales season. It’s a long story. In essence, the deal was concluded close to regular trade price, but enhanced with a very lengthy credit period. It was, in fact, NVT’s largest ever home-market order and would effectively pay the wage bill for a fortnight at the two Midlands factories concerned. 

As good as its word, Elite did not disrupt the market by selling this stock at crazy prices, and its workshop also took special care over the PDIs.

Is it any wonder Ron Welling was such a popular figure both with his fellow traders and with Elite’s retail customers?       

Mike Jackson

Pictured are Wally Young (centre) is about to sign NVT’s delivery note, held by Mike Jackson.  Ron Welling (right) contemplates the courage of the photographer, and how he’s going to sell “this little lot”!

 

 

 

 

•  

Edited July 20, 2020 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

I had a 68 Bonneville. Ride it an hour. Fix it an hour. Leaked like a sieve. ...............Bob

[padgett]

Triumph had a fix for that: a sponge under the case. OTOH I had a '64 BSA 650 Lightning for several years and do not recall it leaking badly (and yes it had oil, 60wt Harley pre-lux.)

[capngrog]

I hate to display the depth of my ignorance, but what are NVT and PDI?  It seems that it's not only the aviation industry that's rife with arcane acronyms.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[padgett]

Pre Delivery Inspection I got. Don't think it is New Venture Transmission. Norton-Vincent-Triumph ?

 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Mark Gregory]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Villiers_Triumph

Norton Villiers Triumph (NVT) was a British motorcycle manufacturer, formed by the British government to continue the UK motorcycling industry, but the company eventually failed.

[padgett]

Just when I think of a British Motorcycle, it is Vincent Black Shadow (unless it is Ariel Square Four - bucket list). Villiers makes me thing of biplanes.

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Triumph had a fix for that: a sponge under the case. OTOH I had a '64 BSA 650 Lightning for several years and do not recall it leaking badly (and yes it had oil, 60wt Harley pre-lux.)

When you didn’t see oil you knew it was time to worry. Harley Davidsons under AMF ownership were no quality champs either.  During that time I took a tour of the HD plant in York PA, at the end of the tour the HD owners on the tour had a whole bunch of quality issues they wanted the company to hear about.  

[1912Staver]

Not a big fan of the Squariel's. Unless you are talking a Healey   Healey  1000 / 4. Otherwise they are tank's . Give me a Red Hunter any day.

My 1972 Norton is very trouble free. I have owned it since nearly new. It was an Interstate when new. I switched the tank and seat for a Roadster decades ago. The interstate tank is huge, pushes your legs uncomfortably wide apart.

Being an 1972 750 Interstate  it has a Combat engine. I changed the main bearings to the later style " superblend's " many years ago as a precaution. Only time it has needed anything other than regular maintenance.

Really a great bike !!  I know Norton and BSA both made some dogs , but I have had very good service from both. Most of my BSA's came apart soon after I bought them to correct hap hazard repairs. Most had gone through several owners

before me. But once they are put together by someone who knows one end of a wrench from the other { me } they are as good as 99% of the other machines of their era. You just have to approach them with a brain , not a hammer.

1949 BSA 500 single Competition model { B34 } I cheated and replaced the Iron lump with an alloy top end , 1953 ZB 34 GS engine years ago. Transforms the bike. I still have the 1949 B 34 engine on a shelf so it can be turned back to factory if someone in the future want's to.

1954 BSA Gold Star 500

1955 BSA Road Rocket { my favorite }

1949 TR 5 Trophy  { my token Triumph }

And several others over the last 45 years.

Most with new owners these days The B34, Road Rocket , and 750 Commando are keepers

 

Greg in Canada

Edited July 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[CarlLaFong]

The Honda CB750 was the death of the British motorcycle industry. The wonderful CB450 should have been warning enough for the Brits but they felt there was no reason for concern. Stiff upper lip. Most of the final offerings were pathetic. The final run of big Enfield twins were. in their jargon, "rubbish". I remember one of the magazines tested a 750 TT Interceptor and it immediately blew up. The Japanese bikes had beautiful engines and electrical systems that actually worked and were oil tight. handling was spotty. Hondas did well, while Kawasaki triples were called widow makers for crazy amounts of power with al dente spaghetti frames

[padgett]

Had two BSAs I acquired in Taiwan and had shipped back to Florida, a single cyl 250 that could almost get out of its own way and a dual carb Lightning 650. Bought both about 5 years old never split the cases and never leaked more than a drop or two. Next had a magneto ignition Harley Sportster, followed by a '72 Suzuki GT750 "water buffalo".

 

Remember seeing a kid with a Kawasaki 500 triple in a parking lot stand it straight up in the air, left the ground, and cracked the case when landed on side. The GT750 was the first bike I had that would do a burnout.

Edited July 20, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I probably like Water Buffalo's as much as any two stroke. But they are a bit chunky, like many Japanese machines of the 1960's and 70's. Had a Suzuki 400 twin for a while, not a bad effort. Suzuki's first 4 stroke as I recall.

But I always came back to British machines. O yes, also a diversion into Yamaha for a bit. A air cooled RD 350 or two and a TD 3 swapped to a Honda XR 500 engine . The TD engine broke a long time ago. Parts were non existant so the 4 stoke Honda fit a local 

" any single , open race group " Thing was a bullet, and even handled reasonably well. Yamaha's race shop knew what they were doing by that time. That huge double sided front drum had been swapped to a disk by the time I owned it.

I believe it is back to TD power these days for modern vintage racing.  I also had a TR 350 , but it had been crashed and was apart when I owned it. It went with the TD as a package. I heard they are both back on the track these days.

Those Yamaha 2 stroke race engines are simple but a riders fright. They tend to seize just when you least expect. I am glad mine had been converted to the Honda.

 

Greg

Edited July 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1950panhead]

I had a 68 Bonneville. Ride it an hour. Fix it an hour. Leaked like a sieve. ...............Bob

I have a 41 knucklehead, I carry a rope and some tools, automatic chain oiler too !

 

 

When you didn’t see oil you knew it was time to worry. Harley Davidsons under AMF ownership were no quality champs either.  During that time I took a tour of the HD plant in York PA, at the end of the tour the HD owners on the tour had a whole bunch of quality issues they wanted the company to hear about.  

AMF stomped accelrator to floor on production resulting in .... yep

 

 

The Honda CB750 was the death of the British motorcycle industry.

The CB750 was a smooth, reliable motorcycle, making everything else look like dinosaurs, I have a few of these too.

 

 

Hondas did well, while Kawasaki triples were called widow makers for crazy amounts of power with al dente spaghetti frames

I bought my first H1 last fall, parked in 82, resting for 38 years, need a lot of work, running now, waiting for Michigan dmv to come back to life.

 

[JamesR]

I had a few of the British bikes. When I was into old motorcycles, I read a great book by a man named Hughie Hancocks (as I recall.) It was called, Tales of Triumph Motorcycles and the Meriden Factory, and was about his employment at the Triumph factory during the great Edward Turner era. Hughie wasn't a company executive or owner, but essentially one of the assembly line workers, and his story gave some real insight into the way the company operated.

 

One of his remembrances was about when he first started at Triumph. The guy training him informed him of one of the company's slogans/philosophies. It was something like, "There are three ways to do things: The wrong way...The right way...and the TRIUMPH way." Hughie said he asked himself the obvious question: Why wouldn't the Triumph way also be the right way?  😄

 

Maybe a screwed up company philosophy that eventually doomed them? I can't say. I can say that many British bikes had a style and cool factor that the Japanese bikes never had, but you can only allow yourself to be stalled in the middle of an intersection so many times before you say, "enough of this!"

[JamesR]

As to reliability, though, I should also mention that my BSA Royal Star was reliable... more reliable than my '73 Honda CB 450, which I owned at the same time. I loved that A 50. My favorite motorcycle of all time, and the only one I really miss. The Triumphs and Nortons I owned were the British bikes that were unreliable.

Edited July 22, 2020 by JamesR (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Me in 1985, just switched from riding Husqvarnas in East cost enduros to a new Honda XR350R single.  Excellent reliability from the Honda but a tad heavy in some situations.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by TerryB (see edit history)

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, TerryB said:

When you didn’t see oil you knew it was time to worry. Harley Davidsons under AMF ownership were no quality champs either.  During that time I took a tour of the HD plant in York PA, at the end of the tour the HD owners on the tour had a whole bunch of quality issues they wanted the company to hear about.  

A Harley from those years and a St. Bernard had a lot in common.  They liked to piss on the driveway, and their favorite place to ride was in the back of a truck!

 

Craig

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, Mark Gregory said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Villiers_Triumph

Norton Villiers Triumph (NVT) was a British motorcycle manufacturer, formed by the British government to continue the UK motorcycling industry, but the company eventually failed.

The British (owned) car industry didn't do much better. 

 

British-Leyland was formed in 1968 with the blessing of the British Government at the time, but we all know what happed to them.  BMC (the 'British' half of British-Leyland) alone held 40% of the UK domestic market in 1964, with a huge export market, especially in North America.  By 2005 when MG-Rover claimed 'Insolvency', their sales were at .02% of the UK market with spotty export sales, thus ending an era of a fully indigenous British owned, designed and manufactured car.

 

Craig

[JV Puleo]

I've had two BSA's, two Velocettes and a Norton. All of them were fine. My first was a 441 BSA Shooting Star and if I could find another, I'd be sorely tempted now.

[padgett]

441 Thumper. Had a comperrsion relief on the handlebars and needed it.

[1912Staver]

58 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Me in 1985, just switched from riding Husqvarnas in East cost enduros to a new Honda XR350R single.  Excellent reliability from the Honda but a tad heavy in some situations.

 

 

 

I had a couple of CR 250 M's around the same time. In fact I still have them but they are on their way to a new owner once I gather up all the parts of the one that is apart. A great engine in a so so chassis. Light{ for a Honda } and well engineered.

I think my 10 years older Greeves had a better chassis than the CR. And once I put a Starmaker in it almost as fast.

 

Greg

[TerryB]

4 minutes ago, padgett said:

441 Thumper. Had a comperrsion relief on the handlebars and needed it.

Honda incorporated an automatic compression release into the kicker on the XR350 along with a handlebar release.  If you dropped the XR  when it was hot the handlebar compression release was your savior to get it restarted quickly.

Edited July 20, 2020 by TerryB (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

17 minutes ago, padgett said:

441 Thumper. Had a comperrsion relief on the handlebars and needed it.

B 50's even more so. I didn't like mine that much and sold it on. I had the CR 250's by then and they lasted out my dirt days. By my mid 30's the ground had rushed up and smacked me one to many times.  Had a liquid cooled CR 125 for a while but my 210 lbs was too much for it in loose ground.

Out of all my dirt bikes the Greeves is the only keeper. The various YZ's went quite a while ago. Had a second model YZ 250 { first monoshock } but I sold it when it was still reasonably new and had a fair bit of value. It was too much of a pure Moto bike for my 

recreational riding. Parts were expensive and needed too often for my liking. Also a MX 175, not a bad bike. A slightly watered down YZ 125  chassis with a less stressed 175 in place of the full race 125. I liked it a lot better than

Honda XL's / XR's. Once again the Honda  weight problem.

Greg

Edited July 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I went to dual sport/adventure bikes after leaving the competition riding behind.  Had a Honda XL600v TransAlp, Suzuki DR650 with lots of enduro inspired parts like bakbusters, skid plate, progressive suspension springs and the like.  The TransAlp was replaced with a  Suzuki DL1000 VStrom and in 2012 the redesigned Suzuki DL650 VStrom joined the stable. The 650 VStrom only lasted three months. A fellow in an SUV decided he wanted to drive in the lane I was occupying.  Bike and rider did not fare well after that encounter.

[JV Puleo]

2 hours ago, padgett said:

441 Thumper. Had a comperrsion relief on the handlebars and needed it.

 

It sure did. It took me some time to learn to use it correctly but when I did learn it was extremely easy to start.

Keep in mind that I never owned a bicycle and could barely ride one. I actually started on two wheels with my BSA.

Edited July 20, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Had lots of bicycles , but almost no little street bike { 90's,125's etc} time before the Norton bug bit. A good friend splurged on a 2 year old 850 Commando, so I did the natural thing and found a slightly neglected 750 for a very reasonable price. Friend was working on drill rigs

so he could afford to splurge. I had just graduated High School and was a auto mechanic apprentice so not much extra cash. The Greeves was bought around the same time, came with 2 Villers 34 A's one with a Greeves head and barrel and the second one out of a Cotton Cobra so their

head and barrel.. Villers only built them with small fin iron barrels at the time so the dirt bike factory's had to make their own  for serious use. But the Starmaker was the best thing I ever did to it.

 Looking back being a learner rider on a 750 Combat might not have been a smart idea. I survived OK but my friend on the 850 was struck by a hit and run car driver. He walks with a limp to this day. His Norton had a fair bit of damage but insurance fixed it. It still lives in one of my sheds but looks 

a bit rough these days. I keep suggesting to my friend a spruce up is in order.  He says  his riding days ; like mine, are about over. My Norton is still a nice bike all these years later. Dunstall clip on's and rear sets, didn't they all have them ?

 

 

 

Greg

[TerryB]

My shed collection, 1970 Yamaha Enduro 90 with 600 miles, 1964 Vespa VNB125 trash day rescue and my son’s 1977 Minerelli moped he found at college.  
 

[padgett]

"A fellow in an SUV decided he wanted to drive in the lane I was occupying." why I had air horns on all my bikes.

[TerryB]

32 minutes ago, padgett said:

"A fellow in an SUV decided he wanted to drive in the lane I was occupying." why I had air horns on all my bikes.

He made a turn from a side road into my lane at the very last minute of my approach.  All the air horns in the world would not have changed the outcome.  You think, hey it’s good he sees me and then everything goes black.  At least the safety gear worked for the top half of my body.  The tow hooks on the Jeeps bumper did a number on the lower extremities.

[padgett]

Did help with lane changers.

[nickelroadster]

Everything British leaked oil.  The British engineers (who had it in for mechanics) made everything leak oil because it worked for corrosion control.  Oil leaks saved many a British vehicle from rusting.

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I probably like Water Buffalo's as much as any two stroke. But they are a bit chunky, like many Japanese machines of the 1960's and 70's. Had a Suzuki 400 twin for a while, not a bad effort. Suzuki's first 4 stroke as I recall.

But I always came back to British machines. O yes, also a diversion into Yamaha for a bit. A air cooled RD 350 or two and a TD 3 swapped to a Honda XR 500 engine . The TD engine broke a long time ago. Parts were non existant so the 4 stoke Honda fit a local 

" any single , open race group " Thing was a bullet, and even handled reasonably well. Yamaha's race shop knew what they were doing by that time. That huge double sided front drum had been swapped to a disk by the time I owned it.

I believe it is back to TD power these days for modern vintage racing.  I also had a TR 350 , but it had been crashed and was apart when I owned it. It went with the TD as a package. I heard they are both back on the track these days.

Those Yamaha 2 stroke race engines are simple but a riders fright. They tend to seize just when you least expect. I am glad mine had been converted to the Honda.

 

Greg

 

The real men rode H-1 & H-2 Kawasaki’s.........the Z-1 was for the people who couldn’t handle the explosive  power and the front end coming up on the hand grenade(triple). Naturally, I grew up in a Kawasaki dealership, and rode and developed some of the factory racers back in the early 80’s. I still have a H-1 new in the crate.

 

We also sold Hodaka, Ossa, Rupp, and a few other odds and ends. It was a great era to play with two stroke toys.........Honda Odysseys, Kawasaki Tecate’s, Kawasaki Jet Skis..........and my favorite oddball, the Rokon.

 

Below is my latest restoration.......when I started it for the first time, it was 41 years since I had ridden an Ossa.

 

Last week I was riding a factory Norton special......a John Player Norton, I didn’t take a photo.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

41 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Everything British leaked oil.  The British engineers (who had it in for mechanics) made everything leak oil because it worked for corrosion control.  Oil leaks saved many a British vehicle from rusting.

It’s a well known fact the British don’t make computers because they couldn’t figure out how to make them leak oil.

[1912Staver]

A good friend almost bit the dust on a Z1. Went around a long line of stopped traffic at a rapid clip. Big mistake, the traffic let a taxi work it's way from a side street to make a L.H. turn. My friend hit it broadside going at least 50 - 60 MPH. Totally his fault, but at least he 

recovered from his injury's . Came very close to loosing a leg but the surgeon decided to take a chance and attempt to save it. Six weeks in hospital and months of rehab.  I visited him as soon as non family was allowed , what a mess .He went back to racing cars, swore off M.C.'s.

 

 

A co- worker raced a H2 powered sidecar rig. A crazy  French Canadian, his name wasn't  Yvon Duhamel but it might as well have been. It was hard to keep the race spec H2 making power in longer events. They rebuilt it with a GS 1100 engine, just nut's. 

bags of power and reliability as well.

 

Greg

Edited July 21, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Greg, this is the last modern build out of our shop(Where we do restorations)...........a top fuel Harley. AHDRA six seconds and 232mph in the quarter mile. It was a very expensive toy..........virtually all hand made, including the cylinders.......makes restoring old cars look cheap. It became too dangerous to even stand by the bike when it was running..........a hydro lock on a cylinder would scatter chunks of metal for hundreds of feet. Even with bullet proof vests and special clothing for protection, bystanders ended up in the emergency room with shrapnel wounds. We used a starter of a B-29 to start it. It’s a ten year old build, but still racing today.

[edinmass]

[1912Staver]

You would have to have a death wish. A couple of the local fuel guys have been killed from blowups  over the years. Like riding a bomb !

Locally money never seems to be a problem for this segment of motorsport. Most of the guys around here at least seem to have some  " alternate " income connections.

 

Greg

[edinmass]

Found a low res photo of the John Player Norton 850.........this is the actual bike..

[1912Staver]

I liked them a lot when they were new. Several around my area in those days. Always too expensive for me. These days I am not even sure they appeal too much to me anymore. The 750 factory production racer seems a better bet these days. Not nearly a bulky in the seat area., and I prefer the single headlight.

I have a factory long range tank, it's like these yellow ones but it drops down much further at the sides. Almost hides the non finned part of the head. And a reproduction seat. The person I bought the tank off of also had a standard P.R. tank and seat , actually a whole P.R. He lent me the seat so I could pull a mold from it.

Looking back I should have just bought his bike. It was out of date for racing and he would have sold it to me  at a price I could have almost afforded. But I already had my 750 Combat and passed on the P.R. It's only worth about 10 standard bikes these days.

 

Greg

Edited July 21, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TerryB]

I had a 1989 Honda TransAlp, a tribute bike to the Paris Dakar rally.  It was a sales disaster in the US when it was released but became quite popular when the idea of adventure touring caught on.