Jump to content

Rust protection for our old cooling systems


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, alsancle said:

On one hand I'm chuckling cause somebody is actually questioning Ed,  but on the other hand he a savant with this stuff and is almost always right.   This is one of those "right" times:

 

Pretty much everything he said is wrong. In addition to the other mistakes me made, he said Evans has a propensity to leak , but it has the opposite. My packing nut used to drip a little water, now it never does, because Evans is much more viscous than water. Who says it leaks? That makes no sense anyway, it's the reason 600W oil doesn't leak as much as 30W. Just common sense 

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Morgan Wright said:

 

Pretty much everything he said is wrong. In addition to the other mistakes me made, he said Evans has a propensity to leak , but it has the opposite. My packing nut used to drip a little water, now it never does, because Evans is much more viscous than water. Who says it leaks? That makes no sense anyway, it's the reason 600W oil doesn't leak as much as 30W. Just common sense 

 

Not to derail the discussion, but the packing nut is SUPPOSED to leak. That's how it cools the shaft and the packing. If it isn't leaking--like a drop every 30-60 seconds or so--it's too tight and the packing is going to overheat from friction. Your owner's manual should reference it and give you an idea of what is normal. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I drained my system and heated the 3 gallons of Evans so it's 1% water now. Used the electric stove because the propane stove might ignite it, this stuff is slightly flammable but more so when it cooks.

.

pot.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I got this in private email, so I'm not including the name.

 

Morgan,

 

I am using Evans waterless coolant in my 1925 Buick.  I like the idea of a lifetime coolant, and that it will not boil over.   So far I am pleased with how it performs.   My 2002 Porsche 911 also had lifetime antifreeze from the factory so it is a good technology.     It seems to be doing a good job with managing the temperature.

Normal operating temperature is 185F. If I shut off the engine, it will creep above 205F. Once the car is started, it brings the temperature back down. Below are notes about long term use - written after 600 miles on the car.

 

I bought this on Amazon so it was delivered to the house.  You need at least 3 gallons, but the deal is buy 4 gal for $168 & free shipping.  You will need a little extra for occasional topping up.  I keep the empty jugs in case I need to drain the radiator to service something.   Filter it thru a coffee filter or paper towel and pour it back in.   Same thing I did on the Porsche when the water pump went out at 45,000 miles.     

Now is really the time to use waterless since the system is dry.  Just pour it in.  If you wanted to make the switch later, you still can, so there is no wrong answer for when to start using it.  If you lost it all on the road and had to use water, you can boil it off later and reuse what is still good.  

One advantage that I see is that one day I drove my car 100 miles.   For an extended time, I was running just over 45 mph.  This is basically tops for the car.  I have an electronic temperature pick up on the head (which I also suggest as they are only $50 and you can flip it under the dash).  Normally on short trips I am reading 200F.  For a long stretch at speed, my reading on the head was steady at 218 degrees F.  It will rise briefly when you come to a stop.  Would I be boiling over with 50/50 mix - possibly or darn close.  I would at some point notice corrosion near the motometer over time, or down where the overflow tube outlet is.  My radiator shell did have rust on the metal under the radiator and at the base of the shell.  I don't worry about any rust forming on my nickel plated shell or the metal between the radiator and the shell anymore.  Ideally a thermostat would open at 165F or 190F and my car would run around 200F, but this is a non pressurized system and no thermostat.  My temperature alarm is set for 250F.   No alarm on the motometer.  At less than 250F I may get a little more heightened awareness, but I am not concerned.  

 

Fact: A coolant mixture of 50% water and 50% ethylene glycol has a boiling point of 223 degrees. A system with a 15 psi cap will add 45 degrees for a final boiling point of 268 degrees. The real purpose of pressurizing is to give drivers a higher operating zone in case of extreme conditions.

 

I don't know how normal this 218F operating temperature is.  I can still retard my spark and hand crank the car.  Advancing the timing further will make the engine run cooler by some amount.  If my honeycomb radiator (which looks clean in and out) is marginal, I have a fix that allows me to keep using it.  Not interested in spending $3,000 to recore it with another honeycomb.  This operating temperature may all be completely normal in Texas. 

I am not sure how well the thermometer that sits on the top of the radiator really works.  I can't see it at night.   The Evans won't boil so I do not know how well it would pick up a real hot engine.  The thermometer seems to be working with the Evans, but the bulb is up in the vapor space and not in contact with the liquid.  Maybe I should solder a little wire on it so it actually touches the fluid?  At 218F the motometer showed an elevated temperature from normal, but not up in the danger circle.  Not a lot of data on this as few have a temperature indicator.      

I do fill my radiator maybe 1/4" above the tubes.  If I ever see dry tubes I add fluid.  I leave space for thermal expansion as I don't want to push any out the overflow. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been following this discussion somewhat on and off because I have been working on an upgrade on my shop building.  I think everyone in the Buick world knows that I am going through the engine in my '16 D-45.  When my Dad had the car he always run distilled water and a can of Rust-Master coolant additive.  He would always drain the cooling system before the first freeze of the year.  Knowing what I know now, this was not the best thing to do with this engine.  Before the rebuild I had the cylinder block thermal cleaned.  The bottom of the water jacket was chock full of crud.  The cleaning brought the block back to the condition it was in when it left the foundry.  The engine has been completely rebuilt.  This brings me to what I want to relate about the cooling system.  Gary Wheeler educated me about the benefits of adding No-Rosion to the anti-freeze solution.  I went on their website and wow, did I ever get informed about this product.  The radiator in this car is as nice as anything coming off an assembly line today.  I am able to start with an impeccably clean cooling system and I am going to do any and everything to keep it this way.  Ben mentioned that he had foaming in his 4-Cylinder system.  I am no expert by any means, but it just seems to me that if this condition exists, then there is air getting into the water jacket somehow, and it more than likely is being pulled in by the water pump via a leak somewhere.  I have a new stainless water pump shaft along with a new cast brass pump impellor, and new packing nuts.  I am using the graphite-impregnated packing material and so far things are looking pretty good after adding just 2 gallons of Zerex Original Formula 50/50 Pre-Mix Anti-Freeze.  Keep in mind that the engine has not been started yet and I have had probably a couple of teaspoonfuls of the solution exit the front pump packing nut.  I snugged it up a bit and that fixed that.

 

I am not going to bag on Mr. Wright for his choice of coolant - that's his choice.  However, it does bother me a lot that he has taken a disrespectful attitude toward folks on here who are simply trying to help him out with good solid advice.  Gary Wheeler, Matt Harwood, and Ed are guys that when they speak you shut up and listen.  In my case, I listened to Gary and Matt and I believe that this engine is going to do just fine with the No-Rosion coolant additive.  I have made no secret of the fact that when this Buick is finished up, we are going to tour with it - tour with it a LOT!!  I'm not looking for a pat on the back, but, I am taking my time and doing this restoration as well as I know how to do it.  I had the best teacher in the world for things like this.

 

In ending this posting, I have just one thing to say to Mr. Wright - SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO THESE GUYS - THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.  

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

P9300885.JPG

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry, thanks for the nice words........I could have responded to his attitude.........I decided not too. I have nothing to prove. I know where I stand on this forum, and in the national car collector community. No one is perfect, and we all make mistakes. I work very hard to make pre war cars the best they can be. In our building where we work on our cars we pursue perfection in the hope of achieving excellence. I think we have done well so far. And we are just getting started, we never slow down, we never take time off, we are always pushing forward.  I hope to tour with you and your car someday......your Buick and my White are only a few months apart........my first early car was a 1919 Buick back when I was 15. Great car that I only had for five months.....couldn’t drive it so I sold it for a nice little profit. It was the beginning of my trade up to get better condition cars. If you come down south to my area, give me a shout and you can take the White for a drive. Maybe we will take one of the big boy toys out also. Best, Ed.

 

PS- two photos- 1916 Buick stand at the auto show, and a nice touring car.👍

1DE9795B-9C77-4B51-A015-1A1F32B54FAB.png

D76A5683-A6B7-40AD-98B8-4F51808F6CAD.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

  Before the rebuild I had the cylinder block thermal cleaned.  The bottom of the water jacket was chock full of crud.  The cleaning brought the block back to the condition it was in when it left the foundry.  The engine has been completely rebuilt. 

 

When I got my car, I removed all the hoses and the upper coolant pipe, and blocked the lower hole of the block with a rubber stopper. I added water and a quart of muriatic acid and let it sit 15 minutes. When I opened the stopper it was like the parting of the "red sea". I did it again about 3 or 4 more times until no more rust came out. I don't know what thermal cleaning is, but nothing can remove more rust than all of it, and muriatic acid does just that. I filled the block in vinegar after that and soaked it 24 hours, just to get the last traces of rust out, and there were none. The radiator was done professionally and he said the flow was fine. 

 

10 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

 

 

 

In ending this posting, I have just one thing to say to Mr. Wright - SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO THESE GUYS - THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.  

 

 

Not going to happen. When somebody gives wrong information it needs to be corrected for the benefit of people who read the thread later. Evans is glycol, and he said it leaks more than antifreeze, which is glycol. I don't see how glycol can leak more than glycol. Glycol is also known as diol, which just means double alcohol. When a hydrocarbon has an -OH group it's an alcohol, when it was two -OH groups it's a diol. So ethyl alcohol becomes ethylene glycol, isopropyl alcohol becomes propylene glycol, and you can have butylene diol as well. I don't think you can have methylene glycol, unless there is room for two -OH on one carbon. Leave that up to the chemists. Shut up and listen? That's pretty insulting, and people who read this thread don't give a rats who says what, it just has to be factually correct, which it wasn't. You people on this forum have some sort of military rank system of who knows more than who, but I totally reject that ranking system and call people out when they are wrong no matter who they are.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point the whole issue is just as crystal clear as the gas tank cleaning issue turned out.

There’s no room for any future reader concerned about the proper method for protecting his car to find any confusion at all.

Let us know how it works out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ben P. said:

At this point the whole issue is just as crystal clear as the gas tank cleaning issue turned out.

There’s no room for any future reader concerned about the proper method for protecting his car to find any confusion at all.

Let us know how it works out.

 

So far so good. Runs great, no foam, no leaks, and I'm leaving it like this all winter. 

 

Speaking of which, one more thing about Evans. If the temperature goes down to -40 and the coolant freezes, it doesn't matter because it doesn't expand when it freezes like water does. Ask me how I know about cracked blocks (years ago gave my car to my brother who let it sit all winter with plain water. He didn't know. Started up the slant 6 in the spring, and boom! Looked down and saw a piston rod sticking out, and the engine was still running! What an engine.)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

....When my Dad had the car he always run distilled water and a can of Rust-Master coolant additive.  He would always drain the cooling system before the first freeze of the year.  Knowing what I know now, this was not the best thing to do with this engine.  Before the rebuild I had the cylinder block thermal cleaned.  The bottom of the water jacket was chock full of crud.

 

Yep, the previous 50 year owner of my little 4-cyl ran distilled water (with no additive at all) and drained it out after every single use.

I’m quite sure that wasn’t the way to go either - perhaps even worse. The amount of rust in there was unbelievable. It was hard to judge by Morgan’s video, but it might have had more than Morgan’s car when he 1st flushed it out — and this was a highly pampered restored car kept in a heated garage and it hadn’t sat for 80 years....

It does drop to -20 degrees F. up here in my neck of the woods, so I probably wouldn’t try cutting oil and distilled water just because I don’t know that the block can be drained *completely* on this car. Not willing to find out either.

Yes, the FOAM. The water-pump shaft was pitted and eating up the packing wick. A new one is being made by the rebuilder who refused to let any aspect of this be farmed out. We’ll find out if it wasn’t 100% the source, though I have a feeling it wasn’t. (You should’ve seen that foam - if it were something out of a movie it wouldn’t’ve been believable.)

This has actually been a productive conversation on this thread.

Lot of good

Edited by Ben P.
Typo (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...