Two tone painting Question/advise

[Alex D.]

I am in the process of an overall two-tone paint job. In the past when I was doing a two tone there would be a pin stripe separating the two colors and a clear coat. I am using PPG single stage poly-urethane and trying to avoid a clear coat and no pinstripe between the two colors. The question is, what would be the best way to reduce the sharp tape line between the two colors?  How did they do it in the 30’s?

 

Alex D.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Alex D. (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Gently sand down the paint along the line with 600 or 800 wet or dry paper used wet. Then 1000 then polish. This will take down the ridge left by the masking tape. Or don't do anything which is what most people did. Factory 2 tone followed a chrome molding or seam wherever possible.

[RansomEli]

Rusty_OToole beat me to the punch.

 

In the 30's they would paint a pin stripe to hide the masking tape line.

 

If you don't want that, make sure you had plenty of paint on both sides of the tape line. Then, carefully, color sand the interface until you have reduced the masking tape line.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by RansomEli (see edit history)

[Alex D.]

Thanks for the quick replies.

The tape lines will follow the body lines and not separated by molding or striping. There will be 3 coats of paint so that will leave a heavy masking tape line. Tedious sanding is what I was expecting but was just wandering If someone had a different technique. I hope to get it taped this evening and sprayed while can get a chemical bond.

 

[Paul Dobbin]

If you make the color change at the reveal, use a real fine line 1/4" tape.    Then do a little sanding a polishing as Ruty O'Toole

suggested.

[W_Higgins]

20 minutes ago, Alex D. said:

There will be 3 coats of paint so that will leave a heavy masking tape line. 

 

 

Do I understand correctly that you are doing three coats of color for the belts and/or reveals?  Do you intend to color sand and polish the whole job once finished or leave the texture shown in your photo?

Edited July 14, 2020 by W_Higgins (see edit history)

[George Cole]

Alex D.  Please post some in-progress pictures.

[Alex D.]

14 minutes ago, W_Higgins said:

 

Do I understand correctly that you are doing three coats of color for the belts and/or reveals?  Do you intend on color sanding and polishing the whole job once finished or leaving the texture shown in your photo?

Yes; The color change will be at the belt and reveals with three coats to give me enough to color sand and polish the whole job.

 

Alex D.

[W_Higgins]

 

8 minutes ago, Alex D. said:

Yes; The color change will be at the belt and reveals with three coats to give me enough to color sand and polish the whole job.

 

Alex D.

 

I go about it different for a number of reasons.  What I do in a case like this is go ahead and color sand the whole thing to remove texture and buff the areas that will remain the base color.  Then I go back and carefully 800 sand belts and reveals to break the gloss where you want the color change.  From there, mask very carefully in the root with fine line tape, then spray only enough of the contrasting color to achieve coverage.  If the gun you're using now doesn't give you a fine spray, find one that will, like a larger Paasche air brush (I'm not talking little things like model builders use, but an old touch-up gun that truly atomizes the paint).  The mask line is minimal to break the edge and because the undercoat has been blocked free of texture, resprays of color-over-color with single-stage paints tend to lay better so it will only take minimal sanding and buffing to clean up the belts and reveals and hence the need to not lay on so much material and create all those other issues that you'll have to overcome as a result of doing so.  The need for mil thickness isn't there when the job doesn't entail sanding off half of it and buffing hard around sharp edges afterwards.

 

 

 

 

[jrbartlett]

Note that masking tape and fine-line tape are different products. The latter is far better for this purpose.

[Alex D.]

15 hours ago, W_Higgins said:

 

 

I go about it different for a number of reasons.  What I do in a case like this is go ahead and color sand the whole thing to remove texture and buff the areas that will remain the base color.  Then I go back and carefully 800 sand belts and reveals to break the gloss where you want the color change.  From there, mask very carefully in the root with fine line tape, then spray only enough of the contrasting color to achieve coverage.  If the gun you're using now doesn't give you a fine spray, find one that will, like a larger Paasche air brush (I'm not talking little things like model builders use, but an old touch-up gun that truly atomizes the paint).  The mask line is minimal to break the edge and because the undercoat has been blocked free of texture, resprays of color-over-color with single-stage paints tend to lay better so it will only take minimal sanding and buffing to clean up the belts and reveals and hence the need to not lay on so much material and create all those other issues that you'll have to overcome as a result of doing so.  The need for mil thickness isn't there when the job doesn't entail sanding off half of it and buffing hard around sharp edges afterwards.

 

 

 

 

W Higgins

I understand what your saying and it makes perfect since and maybe the rout I take, however it is not just the belt line that is a different color, it is the whole roof with the exception of the window reveals. This is an image of the paint scheme that I am going for.

Good advice, thank you

 

Alex D.

 

.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Alex D. (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

That will be very attractive.  Whatever the case, wherever you have contrasting colors the same applies.  Also, if you wait until after both colors are sprayed to do all the blocking and buffing you will wind up with a wonky line at the color change because the lower layer isn't flat and when you block it the high spots will come through, not to mention high risk of cutting through the top color while you're simultaneously trying to work down the lower one if you wait and save it all for the end.  Don't get hung up on the paint cross-linking.  That's immaterial with what you're trying to accomplish.  Take your time and get this first color completely sorted out and then move on to the second one.  It will save a lot of that tedious sanding that you're trying to avoid, not to mention that the odds of having to respray sections will be much higher.

 

   

[John_Mereness]

Just a sidenote:  I do not want to rain on anyone's parade, but after you sell a few Tan and Brown cars, especially Tan and Brown cars with Orange wheels, you get a little paranoid (and a lot of Green's too, plus White, and stay around Brown, old man Gold, and ....).   And, everyone seems to on AACA forum scream right back that they love the colors - yet try to get a check of of their hands.   My best advice is to be real careful with your color choice so people do not scream 70's Tan and Brown at you.  I have now been repainting the Orange wheels to Maroon, but not cost effective to repaint whole cars, so ...

 

As to tape - use fine line tape and then use painter's masking covering 50% of that tape.

Edited July 17, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Guest]

I hope Alex D pays attention to the ADVICE and suggestions that people have ADVISED him to think about.

[Alex D.]

3 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Just a sidenote:  I do not want to rain on anyone parade, but after you sell a few Tan and Brown cars, especially Tan and Brown cars with Orange wheels, you get a little paranoid (and a lot of Green's too, plus White, and stay around Brown, old man Gold, and ....).   And, everyone seems to on AACA forum scream right back that they love the colors - yet try to get a check of of their hands.   My best advice is to be real careful with your color choice so people do not scream 70's Tan and Brown at you.  I have now been repainting the Orange wheels to Maroon, but not cost effective to repaint whole cars, so ...

 

As to tape - use fine line tape and then use painter's masking covering 50% of that tape.

No parade rained on here. The above image was just to show the paint Scheme and not the actual color to be painted. The original color of the car (1932 Cadillac) was black. I am tired of black cars and want something different. When I sent the engine number to the Cadillac Heritage Society it came back as a 1933 painted Dustproof Gray and Dustproof Gray Deep. The IM paint chips for that description look more olive than gray. With the two colors together with red Wheels and pin stripping I think the Cad will look stunning.

[Alex D.]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

I hope Alex D pays attention to the ADVICE and suggestions that people have ADVISED him to think about.

Alex D. is very appreciative of the ADVICE from Higgins and others, and is following it to the letter.  I Am now in the process of color sanding before applying the second Color.

[Paul Dobbin]

 

 

3 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Just a sidenote:  I do not want to rain on anyone parade, but after you sell a few Tan and Brown cars, especially Tan and Brown cars with Orange wheels, you get a little paranoid (and a lot of Green's too, plus White, and stay around Brown, old man Gold, and ....).   And, everyone seems to on AACA forum scream right back that they love the colors - yet try to get a check of of their hands.   My best advice is to be real careful with your color choice so people do not scream 70's Tan and Brown at you.  I have now been repainting the Orange wheels to Maroon, but not cost effective to repaint whole cars, so ...

 

As to tape - use fine line tape and then use painter's masking covering 50% of that tape.

    John,

    I was one of those who chose Tan & Coppertone with orange wheels.  I liked it then and still do.  It had a Ford 289  with a C6 and Jaguar suspention front and rear

    on 35 Ford wire wheels cut down to 15".   Looked like a Model A, accelerated like a Cobra and cornered like a Jaguar.  Traded it for a 57 Corvette.

[viv w]

Using masking tape to split your colors is fine, but rub the tape with your finger nails to ensure it sticks firmly, to avoid the second color running under the tape.

 I have also found, that if you quickly and carefully remove the masking tape, as soon as you have finished painting your second color and before the paint has time to dry, this will leave a cleaner edge.

If you let the second color dry and then try taking the masking tape off, it may flake or lift the edge of your second color.

[Rusty_OToole]

If it was me I would paint the lesser color (brown) first, wet sand and polish, mask off and paint the larger color (cream). Less masking that way.

[Alex D.]

6 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If it was me I would paint the lesser color (brown) first, wet sand and polish, mask off and paint the larger color (cream). Less masking that way.

After painting the lighter color, I realized I made that mistake after finding a photo of a similar example where the door jams were of the darker color of the roof and belt line. The cowl section underneath the hood was also the darker color indicating that the darker was sprayed first.

 Creating more work and learning from mistakes.

[John_Mereness]

18 hours ago, Alex D. said:

No parade rained on here.  ...1933 painted Dustproof Gray and Dustproof Gray Deep. The IM paint chips for that description look more olive than gray. With the two colors together with red Wheels and pin stripping I think the Cad will look stunning.

That is great - I have seen the colors and they will be very nice.

 

 

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

 

 

    John,

    I was one of those who chose Tan & Coppertone with orange wheels.  I liked it then and still do.  It had a Ford 289  with a C6 and Jaguar suspention front and rear

    on 35 Ford wire wheels cut down to 15".   Looked like a Model A, accelerated like a Cobra and cornered like a Jaguar.  Traded it for a 57 Corvette.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with Tan/Brown/Orange (my parents owned a 1931 Cadillac in the combination and at age 7 in 1972, I chose its colors), I am just saying that when time to sell it screams 1970's (along with avocado green, harvest gold, and rust/brown and yellow colored kitchen appliances of the era) and offers come in at not 100% (many come in at 60%, 70% and ... of what they should be and nothing wrong with that if you are accepting of it, but if not accepting of it then do not do it).  And even those who love the color combination of Tan/Brown/Orange are savvy enough to use other's dislike to their negotiation advantage. 

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, viv w said:

Using masking tape to split your colors is fine, but rub the tape with your finger nails to ensure it sticks firmly, to avoid the second color running under the tape.

 I have also found, that if you quickly and carefully remove the masking tape, as soon as you have finished painting your second color and before the paint has time to dry, this will leave a cleaner edge.

If you let the second color dry and then try taking the masking tape off, it may flake or lift the edge of your second color.

Seems to be the case from my experience too

[Walt G]

1) when you remove the masking tape pull it back on itself and keep it close , do not just pull out 90 degrees from the surface and pull slowly! . All of this I learned 40+ years ago when I painted my 31 Franklin Derham victoria in the  nitrocellulose lacquer I bought from England ( Bellco was the brand) and had 3 colors to tape and mask off.  Best thing at that time was I found the two blue colors were an exact match with Mercedes Benz current colors and one ( gray) was RR/Bentley.

2) Re tan and brown and orange being a popular 1970s color to paint every car - I agree and so was silver and maroon. How many 1927-33 era limousines and 7 passenger sedans were painted silver and maroon to make them look "sporty" - in some peoples opinions .

My Packard 7 passenger touring I bought in 2016 was restored in the late 1960s - early 1970s and has the tan, brown, orange colors with polished stainless steel spokes on the wheels. I don't  dislike the color , but have other colors that I would like to see the car in if I were restoring it. I will not repaint the car as it saw little use except going on and off trailers by the two owners that had it before me when it wasn't parked in their heated garages. To go to the time and expense to buy the materials( paint, thinner, sandpaper, etc etc) and repaint it I just do not have the energy for. I can live with the color that is there.  The one thing I did change since this picture appeared in the auction catalog was to remove the tan cover on the trunk and you now see a black trunk and that makes a world of difference to make it look less  "1970s restoration" .

Last word -  polishing the stainless steel spokes is not fun and I have only done it once!   The car awaits metal tire covers that I will paint either fender color or body color to lessen the sphere shape of the spare tire.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Walt G
mispelled word (see edit history)

[PFitz]

There is much better tape than masking tape.

 

Autobody supply houses sell special plastic masking tapes in various widths. Unlike paper type masking tapes, the adhesive on the plastic tape is more uniform and smother so you don't get those "whiskers" of paint bleeding under the edge because of the grainy thickness of paper masking tape adhesive,...even if you run your finger over the edge.  That's ok with some paints like latex, but the solvents in many auto paints will loosen the adhesives in paper tapes and cause some bleed-under "whiskers".

 

Plus, the plastic tapes are purpose made for auto paint work and won't leave adhesive behind like the paper tapes often do.

 

Another benefit of the plastic type tapes is they are stretchy so that they can be easily and smoothly formed to follow curves that the paper tapes never can.  The narrower tapes are perfect for masking the tight radius corners of pre-war window reveals ( I use the 1/4 inch wide for those).

 

Then use the regular paper masking tape over the plastic tape just to hold masking paper or plastic drop clothes.

 

Paul

[Alex D.]

Two tone update;  Finished spraying the darker shade after color sanding the lighter as advised.  The tape lines turned out smooth and straight. The lighter shade has to be reshot due to sanding of excessive orange peel and sand through. After color sanding the dark, I will respray the lighter shade of the lower panels and window reveals. The darker shade of the belt line will follow. Advise and feedback is appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Alex D.

[pmhowe]

That is going to be a very handsome car when you are finished.  I like the color scheme very much. Thanks for posting the pictures (please post more!). Also, thanks for starting this thread. I'm learning a lot from your posts and those of others.

Phil

[Restorer32]

Had you gone with base/clear you would not have these issues. Spray both base colors,  sand as much as necessary to get rid of any tape line then shoot 3 coats of clear over everything.  Done that way you cannot even feel the tape line. Correctly wet sanded and buffed almost no one can tell if it is base/clear or single stage.  Some folks say they can tell but they really can't.  Most professionally  restored cars you see at shows will be base/clear.

[John_Mereness]

It looks good.  

[Alex D.]

3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Had you gone with base/clear you would not have these issues. Spray both base colors,  sand as much as necessary to get rid of any tape line then shoot 3 coats of clear over everything.  Done that way you cannot even feel the tape line. Correctly wet sanded and buffed almost no one can tell if it is base/clear or single stage.  Some folks say they can tell but they really can't.  Most professionally  restored cars you see at shows will be base/clear.

Restorer32

I understand the advantages of base/clear but wanted to stay as close to authenticity as possible, which is the reason I started this thread. I have never been a fan of base/clear since the manufactures started this in the late 80’s. I have seen too many clear coats separating looking like bad sunburns. I have used lacquer with clear and even used lacquer with clear Imron with good results in the past but very little experience with base/clear system. I am a  hobbyist and far from an experienced painter and welcome any advice.  

 

Alex D.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Alex D. said:

I understand the advantages of base/clear but wanted to stay as close to authenticity as possible, which is the reason I started this thread. I have never been a fan of base/clear since the manufactures started this in the late 80’s. I have seen too many clear coats separating looking like bad sunburns. I have used lacquer with clear and even used lacquer with clear Imron with good results in the past but very little experience with base/clear system. I am a  hobbyist and far from an experienced painter

I'm not a pro painter either, but any person like us should use what works best for us.  If you have some sort of subconscious confidence in spraying a certain paint type, it just always seems to go extremely well.  (IMO)

 

I struggled a long time when Acrylic Enamels replaced straight Enamel and Lacquer...I never had a proper booth or climate controls, so I fought the line between too dry (orange peel) vs too wet in spots, to get a sag.

 

Then I tried Single Stage Urethanes, and it's like I actually can paint!  I never get dry spots or wet spots, and never color sand.

[Restorer32]

Like they say "different strokes for different folks". Best to use whatever works best for you.  Happily all the issues with early clears have been solved.  I was reluctant to go to base/clear from single stage for many years but now we're glad we did though we will spray whatever the client wants.

[Alex D.]

I have finished the two tone on the body and moved it out into the sunlight today. There is some very minor orange peal in a couple spots that will be easily polished out. The tape lines are smooth and crisp with a very minor ridge. Very pleased with the results.

Thanks for all of the advice  

Alex D.

 

[Doozer]

Your car looks GREAT!  I am very fond of the colors. I’m really looking forward to seeing more, so keep up the fine work.  Rick

Edited August 13, 2020 by Doozer
Correct punctuation (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Love the colors. Very authentic looking.

[John_Mereness]

19 hours ago, Alex D. said:

I have finished the two tone on the body and moved it out into the sunlight today. There is some very minor orange peal in a couple spots that will be easily polished out. The tape lines are smooth and crisp with a very minor ridge. Very pleased with the results.

Thanks for all of the advice  

Alex D.

 

Great look - Congratulations 

[W_Higgins]

Very nice.  Please continue to update this thread as things progress.

[deaddds]

I had to blow up the last photos. With the side brace wrapped up from the distance I thought it looks like a hotrod with a side pipe!