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fuel (?) starting problem, first gen


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This is probably obvious to a lot of you, but I could use a trouble-shoot.

 

Replaced fuel filter. Drove 4 miles to Costco, filled up, parked, shopped. Leave Costco parking lot, cruise down road about 100ft... stall while moving. Drift to side. Restart; ignition catches, will even run for some seconds if I feather the pedal; but seems starved for fuel. Soon all that happens when cranking is that ignition catches immediately, immediately stalls. I verify fuel's pumping through the accelerator pump nozzles; put on old filter for good measure. No dice. Tow. (1st, I think, in 25 years of ownership.)

 

Figure some flake of something dislodged when changing filter, so tore down carb. Re-install. You guessed it, same issue. When cranked, catches immediately and stalls.

 

Original Carter AFB.

 

Thanks in advance, Nick

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You're going to have to determine if you are losing spark or fuel.....to do this, go to an auto parts store and buy an aerosol can

of Berryman's B12 chemtool. When the car is trying to die, spray chemtool in the throat of the carb with the air cleaner lid off and see if it stays running on the chemtool. If it does you have a fuel problem....if it still won't run with chemtool in the carb, you are losing spark.

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Well, having used all my Berryman's on the tear-down, I went out with my can of starter stuff. Disconnected the battery charger. Waiting for my wife to get home to do the operation, well... it fired up fine. I'm a little mystified, when I tried it 3 hrs before, the symptoms seemed exactly those during the fail. The many mysteries of internal combustion. Thanks for the pointers, I apologize for the bother. 

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Please check the fuel pump pressure going into the carb, after the filter.  Your fuel pump might have failed.

 

Does this car have the fuel filter with the 3rd nipple for the vapor return line?  If so, crimp off the rubber hose to put everything into the carb line when measuring pressure.

 

HTH.

 

😎

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36 minutes ago, Chasander said:

Had similar problem. Found broken wire in distributor. 

Chuck, What made you think to check distributor? In your process of trouble shooting?

Lack of spark? Was the broken wire a spark plug wire? Or was the broken wire under the cap?

Hope all is well. Missed seeing you and Kevin this past June.

Turbinator.

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Wire under cap had come loose, or frayed. I was out in middle of nowhere and had spare set of points with me. Changing points was the easiest to do at the moment. Removed cap and spotted the broken wire. Had a miss immediately before complete failure. 

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21 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

Please check the fuel pump pressure going into the carb, after the filter.  Your fuel pump might have failed.

 

Does this car have the fuel filter with the 3rd nipple for the vapor return line?  If so, crimp off the rubber hose to put everything into the carb line when measuring pressure.

 

HTH.

 

😎

Not to take this thread off track, but is crimping the return line the proper way to check fuel pressure?  I have a fuel pressure gauge mounted between the fuel filter and carb on my '65.  At idle the needle bounces around close to zero (see 1st pic).  When I crimp the return line pressure increases (see 2nd pic).  Is this not the proper place to mount a fuel pressure gauge?  The car does not feel like it's starving for fuel with the return line uncrimped.

 

Thanks

Doug

fuel pressure 1.jpg

fuel pressure 2.jpg

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Doug-

This vapor return nipple and line is constantly bleeding fuel off from the main line. I said crimp it off to confirm fuel pump is good.

 

At higher RPM the volume out of the pump should be enough to make up for what is lost out the vapor vent.

 

You have the fuel pressure gauge in the correct place.

 

 

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I think my only vacuum/pressure gauge is designed for air (?). So far, with light use, all is well.

 

My diagnosis was based on the circumstances and the fact that the engine was catching, and there was plenty of fuel in the bowls and coming through the throttle pump... So I reasoned that the catching eliminated something like a broken wire in the distributor (have had those before, but not in the Riv), and the ample fuel eliminated a pump problem. I may have just gotten lucky. There was nothing visible in the carb, btw.

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Almost guaranteed ignition switch.  Remove the two screws holding the switch in the dash.  LOOK at the back of the switch & the plastic holder holding the wires.  AGAIN, almost bet the wiring is dis-colored from a bad connection over the years.

You can keep playing with it & taking the chance to go out for a drive. When you feel most comfortable & forget about what happened you will get stranded AGAIN.

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3 minutes ago, Wedgewood64 said:

OK, makes sense. Simply replace switch, then? Jon (above) recommends testing. But if the problem comes and goes...?

 

It comes and goes as it gets hot and cools off.  That's what bad switches do.  The ignition switch has a lot of amps going through it (all accessories that go on and off with the key) not just the ignition coil.

 

Replace the switch and also consider installing a heavy duty relay such that all accessory power feed goes through the relay, and the key switch just powers the relay (very low amp draw through switch).

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I think he means an auxiliary relay.  Others have done this and posted it here on the forum.  Should have been something Buick did in the beginning.  Haven't you ever pulled your key from the ignition and the key felt hot in your fingers?  

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No (hot key). For the relay, I'll look it up. I was referring to the bit Tom Telesco published in the Riview in 2001 about a fire safety retrofit. I'm just wondering if this is the same fix under a slightly different name. Thanks all!

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Ah, ok, there are two things then. I found some pages here on the fusible links; but for the auxiliary relay, I haven't come up with the thread. I think it's safe to say I'm not an ace with the electrics so I'd need to be walked through it. What I did find, though, did remind me that I HAVE felt the heat from the ignition switch before, Ed. Maybe not too recently, and not the key, so at first, I didn't really get it.

This lack of a relay is why there's the handy feature of the power windows working whether or not the ignition is on...? I like that feature; but I'm beginning to see the problem with it.

New ignition switch ordered. Haven't inspected wires yet.

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The following added detail is for future readers of this thread:

 

Buick changed the ignition wiring between the 1963 and 1964 model years, as documented in the 1964 Buick Dealer Service Bulletins.

 

This means that 1964 and later ignition switches will not work on the '63.  One of the many little changes in the 1st-gen. Riviera that people may not be aware of that can burn you.  I suspect that the plug that attaches to the back of the switch changed, so that one will not plug on to the other, but I don't know that for sure.

 

😎

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-07-17 at 8.38.06 AM.png

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Some years ago, about 6/7, I was working on a '63 Riv. with the '63 only ignition switch which was bad & difficult & costly to get.  I wired as nec. & used a '64 switch.  No problems since.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I got a new switch in there, everything's functioning well. I wasn't able to find a how-to on wiring the suggested relay, so left that out. If anyone can point me the way to something explanatory (I have no real knowledge of electrics besides positive, and negative), I'd give it a try. The plug was a bit melted back there, though the wires themselves looked fine.

 

BTW, Is it normal that the key can be removed in any position except ACC?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/14/2020 at 7:58 AM, Chasander said:

Wire under cap had come loose, or frayed. I was out in middle of nowhere and had spare set of points with me. Changing points was the easiest to do at the moment. Removed cap and spotted the broken wire. Had a miss immediately before complete failure. 

Chuck, had so much trouble with ethanol gasoline I think of water in the gasoline. Happy a broken wire and ezto fix for you.

Turbinator

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