1968 442 W30

[alsancle]

I've had my eyes on a W30 car for a long time.  This one happens to only be 10 minutes from my house.  I've asked the dealer if they have paperwork as I'm not buying a musclecar that doesn't have its buildsheet or invoice or both.

 

The thing I like about this car is that it feels "honest" but I'm not an Olds expert by any means.   I would like any feedback anyone here might have.

 

https://www.highoctaneclassics.com/used/Oldsmobile/1968-Oldsmobile-442-939f91510a0e08bc6055bda37f068873.htm

 

442 w30

History of this car back to the original owner
come with its original short block 400
the car retains its original w30 heads, intake manifold distributor
comes with its original matching number muncie, has its original factory 433 gear set, but currently running a 391 posi rear end
original 68 rims wheels
interior all original with exception of recovering front seats and carpet replacements
photo history of the car from the 70s and 80s
car retained original red inner fenders wells, red plastic, delivered in Alaska, sold through aurora Oldsmobile was with original owner until 1996
second owner from 96 to 2002, then sold to his friend and ended up in private collection

 

 

[joe_padavano]

A few things jump out.

 

Those are not original wheels, they are 1975-newer SSII wheels with snap-in centers. The optional original SSII wheels in 1968 were 14x6 with bolt-in centers and were painted argent, not body color. Also, the 1968 SSII wheels did not use the stainless bezels around the five holes, the edge of the hole was painted silver.

 

The 442 emblems on the fenders sure look to be angled down in the front (at least on the driver's side). Replacing a rusty fender isn't uncommon, but still.

 

The car has the correct front drum brakes but has an incorrect replacement M/C for a disc brake car

 

The replacement engine has obviously been incorrectly painted gold instead of bronze. That's not an uncommon mistake for people who are not savvy in Oldsmobiles, as the bronze can appear to be gold-ish.

 

Obviously the exhaust system is all non-original and the trumpets are missing. While  most of my cars have aftermarket mufflers, the cheezy Flowmasters are somehow both obnoxiously loud and droning while managing to be among the most restrictive in every test I've ever read.

 

The 442 emblem on the grill is too high. It needs to move down one row in the "eggcrate".

 

The heads, distributor, and carb are the hard-to-find parts that are unique to the W-30 that year. The intake is the same iron one used on every big block Olds built in 1968 except for Toronados.  Check the date codes on those parts to see if they correspond to the third week of Jan build data on the cowl tag.

 

4.33 gears were actually the base equipment with a four speed on the 1968 W-30, though other ratios were optionally available. That should be a close ratio M21 trans.

 

The red inner fenders at least appear to be old. I always worry when I see a "W30" with shiny new repro red inner fenders. Whether or not they are original to the car we'll never know.

 

The cowl tag does show Ebony Black upper and lower body and red bucket seat interior.

 

What's going on with the ignition switch???

 

Bottom line is that there's nothing that screams "fake" in the photos. There are a lot of details that need to be corrected (expect to pay $700-800 just to get the steering wheel fixed correctly). Unfortunately, without a build sheet, invoice, or other documentation, there's no way to prove it's real, either. Use this info to negotiate. Good luck.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

4.33 gears mean that car was used for only one thing...

 

"Comes with its original short block" sort of suggests that it's not in the car and may not be usable given the suspicions about its former life. Be sure to ask whether the engine in the car is actually the original engine and get a photo of the VIN stamp on the driver's side front corner of the block.

 

How does such an otherwise clean car have such a ratty engine bay?

 

Mismatched tires suggests someone on a budget was trying to save a few bucks. I don't believe those are the original wheels, either.

 

New upholstery not really a good match to the original back seat. Can you live with that?

 

Chunk of wood holding it in place is not confidence-inspiring.

 

My gut says that was a car that was raced, hence the straight bodywork. That can be a plus since it probably didn't see much inclement weather. These are typically very durable cars so the racing shouldn't disqualify it. However, the transformation from street car to race car and back again should leave plenty of places for gremlins and hack workmanship to hide, and that condition of that engine bay doesn't inspire confidence. It almost looks like it was stored outside, although I would think the paint should be more weathered. Incongruous.

 

Finally, that really seems like A WHOLE LOT of money for a fairly ragged car. For some hard data points you can use, I sold that gorgeous 1969 Hurst/Olds serial #1 with a high-quality restoration and factory A/C for about $75,000. I sold the documented, matching-numbers blue 1969 442 below for just over $50,000, and it was one of the best in the world (granted, a bench seat/automatic column shift/2-door post car but the quality was exceptional).

     

 

I sold this 1968 442 ragtop with working factory A/C for about $35K (again, a column-shift automatic, but a real-deal matching-numbers 442 convertible with a fresh engine):

     

 

I sold this very attractive matching-numbers 1967 442 with working factory A/C for $45,000 (ignore the cheeseball wheels, it was otherwise a pretty stock car and the original wheels were included):

       

 

This black on red car you're looking at could be a good buy at, say, $25,000. At twice that figure, I'd really expect something remarkable, especially if the matching-numbers status is questionable. You've got AT LEAST $25,000 worth of work ahead of you, knowing what I do of your standards. Does that car justify the investment? Only you can decide.

[alsancle]

Thanks Joe & Matt!

 

Joe,  you explained why I like the stance - the later wheels and I was wondering about the ignition switch.

 

Matt,  I think you nailed the big issue which is probably the block.   Years of reading auction descriptions you would think by now I could pick out the slight of hand on the "come with its original short block 400".   On the pricing,  I think W30/four speed  makes it much tougher to find?

 

Btw,  how long would it take you to respond to an email inquiry?  24 hours or more?   Or do you prefer calls?

 

 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

Bottom line is that there's nothing that screams "fake" in the photos. There are a lot of details that need to be corrected (expect to pay $700-800 just to get the steering wheel fixed correctly). Unfortunately, without a build sheet, invoice, or other documentation, there's no way to prove it's real, either. Use this info to negotiate. Good luck.

 

I wanted to emphasis my agreement on your point about paperwork.   I would rather pay a premium for a documented car then get a "deal" on one that isn't.   We shall see what the seller has,  but if the block is in the trunk it is all moot.

 

[Matt Harwood]

52 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Thanks Joe & Matt!

 

Joe,  you explained why I like the stance - the later wheels and I was wondering about the ignition switch.

 

Matt,  I think you nailed the big issue which is probably the block.   Years of reading auction descriptions you would think by now I could pick out the slight of hand on the "come with its original short block 400".   On the pricing,  I think W30/four speed  makes it much tougher to find?

 

Btw,  how long would it take you to respond to an email inquiry?  24 hours or more?   Or do you prefer calls?

 

 

 

Agree that a real W30 4-speed car will bring a premium. How much does that premium offset all the issues, though? How much is a restored W-30 4-speed car worth? $80? Much as I like the earlier 442s, this isn't a '70 so there's a hard ceiling on its value. Joe can probably answer this best, but is there a way to identify a real W-30 car beyond the red inner fenders? Is there a code on the car that shows it's a real W-30 or do you need a build sheet? Without research, I don't know off the top of my head.

 

I typically answer E-mails pretty quickly if I'm in the office and even after hours. I don't jump on them right away on the weekend because most questions involve verbose answers and it's a pain on my phone if I'm out at an event. But it also depends on the nature of the message and who is sending it. People who send a one-line E-mail that says, "What's the least you'll take?" without indicating what car, well, I don't rush to answer those. But people with specific questions get them answered pretty quickly.

 

We do our best to answer all the calls during business hours, but it isn't unusual for me to be on the phone with one or two calls waiting--we're small with 7 of us here so there's not a huge bank of people waiting for calls to come in. If you call and I don't get on the line, please leave a message and I will call back, usually during business hours. I'm not really comfortable calling people after hours, just a leftover from my mother, I guess. But anyway, I'll always call back if you leave a message.

 

E-mail is usually the best way to get a definite, extensive answer. I like typing a lot more than I like talking on the phone, which makes me kind of weird, I guess.

[joe_padavano]

The long-stroke small-bore G-block 400 used in the 68-69 cars was not one of Oldsmobile's better motors. They frequently got replaced by 455s when the original blew up.

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Agree that a real W30 4-speed car will bring a premium. How much does that premium offset all the issues, though? How much is a restored W-30 4-speed car worth? $80? Much as I like the earlier 442s, this isn't a '70 so there's a hard ceiling on its value. Joe can probably answer this best, but is there a way to identify a real W-30 car beyond the red inner fenders? Is there a code on the car that shows it's a real W-30 or do you need a build sheet? Without research, I don't know off the top of my head.

 

I typically answer E-mails pretty quickly if I'm in the office and even after hours. I don't jump on them right away on the weekend because most questions involve verbose answers and it's a pain on my phone if I'm out at an event. But it also depends on the nature of the message and who is sending it. People who send a one-line E-mail that says, "What's the least you'll take?" without indicating what car, well, I don't rush to answer those. But people with specific questions get them answered pretty quickly.

 

We do our best to answer all the calls during business hours, but it isn't unusual for me to be on the phone with one or two calls waiting--we're small with 7 of us here so there's not a huge bank of people waiting for calls to come in. If you call and I don't get on the line, please leave a message and I will call back, usually during business hours. I'm not really comfortable calling people after hours, just a leftover from my mother, I guess. But anyway, I'll always call back if you leave a message.

 

E-mail is usually the best way to get a definite, extensive answer. I like typing a lot more than I like talking on the phone, which makes me kind of weird, I guess.

 

I won't buy a car without paperwork so your point on the W-30 option is well taken.   I also didn't realize the price differences on the 68/69  vs the 70/71.   I assume that is because of the 455.    I recognized the Hurst car you had was a great car,  but I have to get over the automatic hump before I could pull the trigger on one.

 

The reason I asked about how you respond is that I asked the dealership that has the subject car more than 24 hours ago if they had paperwork and have not gotten any kind of response yet.   Maybe calls work better for them.   I would never send an email that asks for what the bottom dollar is because it is wasting everyone's time.   Just like I would never ask about a car I had no intention of every buying.

 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

I won't buy a car without paperwork so your point on the W-30 option is well taken.   I also didn't realize the price differences on the 68/69  vs the 70/71.   I assume that is because of the 455.    I recognized the Hurst car you had was a great car,  but I have to get over the automatic hump before I could pull the trigger on one.

 

The reason I asked about how you respond is that I asked the dealership that has the subject car more than 24 hours ago if they had paperwork and have not gotten any kind of response yet.   Maybe calls work better for them.   I would never send an email that asks for what the bottom dollar is because it is wasting everyone's time.   Just like I would never ask about a car I had no intention of every buying. 

 

 

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove that the car is a W30 without paperwork, unless the car was originally sold in Canada (where those records do still exist).  The best you can do is base a decision on the preponderance of evidence. As I noted above, the fact that the red inner fenders look to be old is a good sign. If the original short block still retains the correct 328/328 deg cam, that would be a good sign. The original 4.33 gears are a good sign, since as I mentioned that was the standard gear ratio for a 1968 4spd W30 car. Also, as I noted above, if the original carb and distributor are the correct numbers for a W30 and have date codes that are consistent with the 01C build date, that would be a good sign. Typically, you would expect the parts to carry date codes within 30-90 days of the car's assembly date, and certainly not ever after the assembly date.

 

The distributor number should be 1111468 if it has points or 1111470 if it has the Ultra High Voltage ignition system. These numbers were only used on W30 motors.

 

The carb should be 7028251 for engine unit numbers up to and including 8342491 and carb 7028254 for engine unit numbers above that.  The engine unit number is stamped on the oil fill tube (which unfortunately can also be swapped). This is a little problematic, as the '251 carb was also used on all other 400 and 455 motors for 1968. The change to the W30-unique '254 carb was made part way through the model year and is documented in Dealer Technical Bulletin 68-T-18 dated 6-3-68.

 

Unfortunately, all of these parts can be bolted to any 442, so again, it isn't hard proof, but only circumstantial evidence. As for the dealership's response (or lack thereof), that's a message. Don't expect the dealer to know the details about a W30. Good luck.

Edited July 13, 2020 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The long-stroke small-bore G-block 400 used in the 68-69 cars was not one of Oldsmobile's better motors. They frequently got replaced by 455s when the original blew up.

 

Thank you.   That is the sort of info that is gold to someone like me that knows crap about Olds but likes them.   

 

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Unfortunately, there is no way to prove that the car is a W30 without paperwork, unless the car was originally sold in Canada (where those records do still exist).  The best you can do is base a decision on the preponderance of evidence. As I noted above, the fact that the red inner fenders look to be old is a good sign. If the original short block still retains the correct 328/328 deg cam, that would be a good sign. The original 4.33 gears are a good sign, since as I mentioned that was the standard gear ratio for a 1968 4spd W30 car. Also, as I noted above, if the original carb and distributor are the correct numbers for a W30 and have date codes that are consistent with the 01C build date, that would be a good sign. Typically, you would expect the parts to carry date codes within 30-90 days of the car's assembly date, and certainly not ever after the assembly date.

 

The distributor number should be 1111468 if it has points or 1111470 if it has the Ultra High Voltage ignition system. These numbers were only used on W30 motors.

 

The carb should be 7028251 for engine unit numbers up to and including 8342491 and carb 7028254 for engine unit numbers above that.  The engine unit number is stamped on the oil fill tube (which unfortunately can also be swapped). This is a little problematic, as the '251 carb was also used on all other 400 and 455 motors for 1968. The change to the W30-unique '254 carb was made part way through the model year and is documented in Dealer Technical Bulletin 68-T-18 dated 6-3-68.

 

Unfortunately, all of these parts can be bolted to any 442, so again, it isn't hard proof, but only circumstantial evidence. As for the dealership's response (or lack thereof), that's a message. Don't expect the dealer to know the details about a W30. Good luck.

 

I haven't heard back from the dealership on the paperwork,  but thank you for the part numbers.   My initial enthusiasm has been severely damped by the idea that the block might be in the trunk.  If I hear anything else I'll report back.

 

My gold standard car that I lusted after was this one but the idea of coming up with 170k or so was daunting.   Also, why the idea of a coupe in the 40-50 range seemed appealing.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-396963/1969-oldsmobile-442-w-30-convertible/

 

 

[joe_padavano]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

My gold standard car that I lusted after was this one but the idea of coming up with 170k or so was daunting.   Also, why the idea of a coupe in the 40-50 range seemed appealing.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-396963/1969-oldsmobile-442-w-30-convertible/

 

 

 

I know the person who owned and restored that 69. That car is legit and correct.

[alsancle]

Here is the response to my question on paperwork and running.   Have asked again about buildsheet and if original block is in car.

 

The car runs and drives like new it’s one of the best running cars we have. I spoke the the prior 2owners it was delivered to Aurora olds In Fairbanks Alaska. The first owner in the military he bought it off the showroom floor. The third owner was 13 when he saw it in the showroom. Do you original owner passed in 1986 the car was held on to buy the family until 1996 when it was sold to the second owner who kept it until 2002. Third ower Sold it to a collector in Massachusetts that was a friend of my attorney and offered it to me. No doubt the stars will I have pictures back in the 80s that show that in a fender wells in the car pretty much as it is today a very cool piece. Has the correct carburetor on it distributor alternator I have the 433 gears that it was ordered with. 

[Matt Harwood]

20 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Here is the response to my question on paperwork and running.   Have asked again about buildsheet and if original block is in car.

 

The car runs and drives like new it’s one of the best running cars we have. I spoke the the prior 2owners it was delivered to Aurora olds In Fairbanks Alaska. The first owner in the military he bought it off the showroom floor. The third owner was 13 when he saw it in the showroom. Do you original owner passed in 1986 the car was held on to buy the family until 1996 when it was sold to the second owner who kept it until 2002. Third ower Sold it to a collector in Massachusetts that was a friend of my attorney and offered it to me. No doubt the stars will I have pictures back in the 80s that show that in a fender wells in the car pretty much as it is today a very cool piece. Has the correct carburetor on it distributor alternator I have the 433 gears that it was ordered with. 

 

Is English his second language or something?

[edinmass]

I forbid you to buy any car without.............

 

Documentation from day one...........

 

Buy a car with that many issues..........

 

Buy a car without complete provenance...........

 

Buy a post war car...........what in the hell are you thinking?

 

Don't make me tell your wife!

 

Sincerely, Your under paid collection manager and head mechanic. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

Here is the response to my question on paperwork and running.   Have asked again about buildsheet and if original block is in car.

 

The car runs and drives like new it’s one of the best running cars we have. I spoke the the prior 2owners it was delivered to Aurora olds In Fairbanks Alaska. The first owner in the military he bought it off the showroom floor. The third owner was 13 when he saw it in the showroom. Do you original owner passed in 1986 the car was held on to buy the family until 1996 when it was sold to the second owner who kept it until 2002. Third ower Sold it to a collector in Massachusetts that was a friend of my attorney and offered it to me. No doubt the stars will I have pictures back in the 80s that show that in a fender wells in the car pretty much as it is today a very cool piece. Has the correct carburetor on it distributor alternator I have the 433 gears that it was ordered with. 

 

A very longwinded way to say "no, there is no documentation".  🙄

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

I forbid you to buy any car without.............

 

Documentation from day one...........

 

Buy a car with that many issues..........

 

Buy a car without complete provenance...........

 

Buy a post war car...........what in the hell are you thinking?

 

Don't make me tell your wife!

 

Sincerely, Your under paid collection manager and head mechanic. 

 

How did you get lost and land in the Olds forum?    There was no W30 option on Pierce Arrow so I'm sort of forced to go post war on this one.

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

A very longwinded way to say "no, there is no documentation".  🙄

 

I think you a probably right.  That would put a nail in it.     I found it interesting that it had no ignition switch and probably no e-brake given the rock in the picture,  yet it runs "like new".  

[alsancle]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

I forbid you to buy any car without.............

 

Documentation from day one...........

 

Buy a car with that many issues..........

 

Buy a car without complete provenance...........

 

Buy a post war car...........what in the hell are you thinking?

 

Don't make me tell your wife!

 

Sincerely, Your under paid collection manager and head mechanic. 

 

I forgot,  but you want me to buy that Nash Convertible Sedan RM is selling but you think this is a bad idea????

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

I forgot,  but you want me to buy that Nash Convertible Sedan RM is selling but you think this is a bad idea????

 

 

Don't be so cheap...........pry your wallet open with a crow bar and spend a few bucks! ANY post war car is a bad idea, just as any pre war car is a good idea. It shows sophisticated taste..........so the last two post war collector cars you had;  you owned for a total of 50 years.....and you drove them how many times, and how many miles?🤔

Edited July 14, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Don't be so cheap...........pry your wallet open with a crow bar and spend a few bucks! ANY post war car is a bad idea, just as any pre war car is a good idea. It shows sophisticated taste..........so the last two post war collector cars you had;  you owned for a total of 50 years.....and you drove them how many times, and how many miles?🤔

 

I can counter argue I drove them more than the prewar cars.   😋

 

You are safe on the W30.  Have not heard back on the paperwork and I'm sure Joe's translation of his response is correct ->  i.e. what paperwork?

[alsancle]

Here is a video of me driving my Graham.  Most it has been driven in 60 years.

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

Do you still have the Graham or has it been sold and restored? I could have sworn I saw it in a client's collection all restored and I'm pretty sure he said it was the only one. But I may be mistaken, which I often am. Too many cars to keep them all in my head anymore.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Do you still have the Graham or has it been sold and restored? I could have sworn I saw it in a client's collection all restored and I'm pretty sure he said it was the only one. But I may be mistaken, which I often am. Too many cars to keep them all in my head anymore.

 

Is Walt a client of yours?  He owns the phaeton.  There is also a Hupmobile Phaeton.  I still have the convertible coupe and it periodically takes money out of my wallet.  It is Ed's favorite car of mine.

 

[Matt Harwood]

Nice! Yes, Walt and I do a lot of business together. One of my favorite guys. He has somehow amassed a massive collection of Grahams, although by his own admission he never set out to do it. Walking through one of his facilities, we kept finding cars he forgot he owned. LOL

[edinmass]

Matt......I can make you a good deal on that Graham that AJ owns, I don’t like it, and it’s on my “off load” list. Since I am AJ’s retained collection manager, he does listen to me, and we have cleared out a bunch of post war junk........excuse me, I mean Shelby’s.😝

[alsancle]

26 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Nice! Yes, Walt and I do a lot of business together. One of my favorite guys. He has somehow amassed a massive collection of Grahams, although by his own admission he never set out to do it. Walking through one of his facilities, we kept finding cars he forgot he owned. LOL

 

He and his wife are two of the nicest people I have met in the hobby.  We have the same excellent taste in cars.  Only issue is he can afford the whole car and I can buy the hood ornaments.

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Matt......I can make you a good deal on that Graham that AJ owns, I don’t like it, and it’s on my “off load” list. Since I am AJ’s retained collection manager, he does listen to me, and we have cleared out a bunch of post war junk........excuse me, I mean Shelby’s.😝

 

Following Ed's excellent advice I've gotten rid of all the cars I can drive and kept the ones that have to be pushed.

[edinmass]

Just now, alsancle said:

 

Following Ed's excellent advice I've gotten rid of all the cars I can drive and kept the ones that have to be pushed.

 

Give me one of your “pushers” and a blank check, it will be a driver before you can say......”my wife divorced me for spending all my money on cars”............see, it’s easy!

[deaddds]

Is the car at a legit business? Really? That has to be a hacked in account fishing for a knucklehead. jUst Mi toO sents based on Tha kleer and consyse antser tOo yer inqueery. Holy s#%t.

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, deaddds said:

Is the car at a legit business? Really? That has to be a hacked in account fishing for a knucklehead. jUst Mi toO sents based on Tha kleer and consyse antser tOo yer inqueery. Holy s#%t.

 

I had never heard of them even though they are only 10 miles away from me.    I believe they are the offshoot of a big Honda dealer next door where I happened to buy a used Tacoma for one of my kids a few years ago.

[deaddds]

Wow, how places like that ever sell a car is mind boggling.  Is the effort needed to sell a car that involved?