1902 FORD RUNABOUT ENGINE

[Kevan]

I have a 1902 Ford Runabout.  The Engine is missing.  Does anyone know where I can buy a replacement engine?

Edited July 11, 2020 by Kevan
Left out a word. (see edit history)

[cahartley]

I think you're in trouble no matter what year it is, but especially so, with it being so early.

The one in the attached photo is an '03 Model A.

MANY years ago (pre internet) the owner had it restored and even then Model A cylinders could not be found but a pair of Model B cylinders were acquired so they were used.

If you had even some engine parts........well........you know....... 

I know some engine parts have been cast and patterns for whatever was reproduced likely still exist.

It's not unheard of to have complete engines built but it puts a pretty good dent in estate planning....... 

I have a friend who is working on a Model C (?)........I know he has made parts for theirs and he is extremely talented at doing the impossible which takes a bit longer.......  

[Pete O]

You might want to try these guys:   http://earlyfordregistry.com/

 

This is for Pre-Model T fords 1903- 1909 (it actually includes really early Model Ts too)

 

Did you mean to say 1902 Ford?  The first model from the Ford Motor Company was the 1903 Model A.   

 

There's a user forum that you can sign up for, and post a want ad.

 

 

FYI, a few years ago, I did see a complete Ford Model C engine for sale at the Hershey swap meet.  I don't remember exactly how much the guy was asking for it, but  do remember it wasn't cheap!  The Model C engine is a slight improvement on the Model A (10hp vs. 8hp), and the engines are essentially interchangeable from what I know.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Pete O (see edit history)

[Kevan]

Dear Pete:

 

Thank you for your response.  I am following-up with: http://earlyfordregistry.com/

I do not know a lot about this old car.  I did see on:  https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/198442 , that there is a 1902 Ford, but it might not have been sold until 1903.

I also saw at:  https://www.conceptcarz.com/s5250/ford-model-a.aspx.aspx that Ford made Model A cars from 1902 to 1905, before making the Model T and then the more well known Model A.  The 1902 to 1905 Model A looks  to my untrained eyes to be identical to the Runabout.

I also read that Ford provided Cadillac with engines during the first few years of the 20th century, and that the engine was identical to that used in the Fords.  So I am also looking for Cadillac engines of that time.  So far, no luck.

 

with kind regards,

 

Kevan

[edinmass]

Unless I am mistaken, 1903 Ford cars sued Dodge Brothers engines. Cadillac made their own, but both the Cadillac and Dodge Brothers looked very similar.

[Oregon Desert model 45]

There was a "Henry Ford Company" which existed for a few months, ending in 1902 when Ford departed after a dispute with the company backers.

Were there any cars produced during this time  ?

After Ford had departed, this factory began building Cadillac cars under the leadership of Henry Leland.

 

[Pete O]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Unless I am mistaken, 1903 Ford cars sued Dodge Brothers engines. Cadillac made their own, but both the Cadillac and Dodge Brothers looked very similar.

 Dodge Brothers  manufactured the Ford designed engines (and frames) under contract for Ford.  Ford didn't actually make their own engines until the 1907 Models N, R and S.

[Pete O]

10 hours ago, Oregon Desert model 45 said:

There was a "Henry Ford Company" which existed for a few months, ending in 1902 when Ford departed after a dispute with the company backers.

Were there any cars produced during this time  ?

After Ford had departed, this factory began building Cadillac cars under the leadership of Henry Leland.

 

I do not believe based on what I have read that Ford built any cars that were sold to the public during his first two attempts to form a company from 1899-1902:  The Detroit Automobile Company and the Henry Ford Company.  Prototypes were built, and Ford essentially used these companies as a means to develop and refine the car that eventually went into production in 1903 in his third and final attempt to form a company, The Ford Motor Company.   If any of the prototypes still exist, they are in museums.

[Pete O]

16 hours ago, Kevan said:

Dear Pete:

 

Thank you for your response.  I am following-up with: http://earlyfordregistry.com/

I do not know a lot about this old car.  I did see on:  https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/198442 , that there is a 1902 Ford, but it might not have been sold until 1903.

I also saw at:  https://www.conceptcarz.com/s5250/ford-model-a.aspx.aspx that Ford made Model A cars from 1902 to 1905, before making the Model T and then the more well known Model A.  The 1902 to 1905 Model A looks  to my untrained eyes to be identical to the Runabout.

I also read that Ford provided Cadillac with engines during the first few years of the 20th century, and that the engine was identical to that used in the Fords.  So I am also looking for Cadillac engines of that time.  So far, no luck.

 

with kind regards,

 

Kevan

That picture in the concetpcarz website is one of the early race cars that made a name for Henry Ford.  That car is know as the Sweepstakes car, and is the one that he raced in and beat Alexander Winton  in 1901.   That 1902 ford in the henryford website is a prototype that never went on sale.  Cadillac was formed from the remains of the second Ford car company, The Henry Ford Company.  The Cadillac Model A of 1903 was based on the body and chassis design Ford was working on when he abandoned that company.  Henry Leland went on to design and build the one cylinder engine that was used in the  Cadillac Model A.   If you look at the 1903 Cadillac Model A and the 1903 Ford Model A, it is very hard to tell them apart but the Ford Model A had a 2 cylinder engine vs. the Cadillac one lunger.  From what I've read, Ford never built engines for the Cadillac company.  In fact, Ford didn't build his own engines until 1907.  Until then,  they were built by Dodge Brothers under contract to Ford.  The Dodge brothers were big stockholders in the Ford Motor Company, and they used their profits from the stock dividends to develop their own car.  Henry did not like that, and in a move that would land him in jail nowadays, he manipulated the stock price way downward and bought out the Dodge brothers shares for pennies on the dollar.

[Pete O]

Kevan,  Would it be possible for you to post a picture of your car?  I'd love to see it!

[Kevan]

It is in storage.  I will take a photo the next time I am there, and will then post it here.

[Kevan]

Dear Pete O:

 

My brother has taken the car apart to start a ground-up restoration, so I am attaching photos of the various pieces of the car.

 

Thank you for your time, consideration, and input.

 

Kevan

 

[Lozierman]

That looks like a non-original cat to me.  I suspect it was something made in the 50s much like the "curved dash Olds" made with modern engines.  I notice the use of plywood, when this probably wasn't used in an original automobile.

Others' thoughts?

[Joneebgood]

Kevan, that chassis has some really interesting features!  It even has brakes on the rear axle. Thank you for posting all the photos.  It really is very unique.  I hope someone can provide more information.  Good luck with your project.

[Pete O]

Wow!  The body style sure does look like that photo from the Henry Ford museum of the 1902 runabout!    The front and  rear suspensions look different-  your photos show the axles being supported by semi elliptic springs that run longitudinally front to back.  The  HF Museum photo shows full elliptic springs at each of the 4 wheels.   But remember, these pre 1903 cars were ALL prototypes, so differences from one to the next are to be expected.  Are there any remnants (bolt holes, brackets, etc.) of how the original engine might have been mounted?   Any markings on the chassis?

Edited July 24, 2020 by Pete O (see edit history)

[Kevan]

Dear Lozierman:

 

You have a sharp eye.

 

I asked my brother if the body is made of plywood.  He told me that, when he got the car, one piece was missing and he fabricated that out of plywood.

 

With kind regards,

 

Kevan

[Kevan]

Dear Pete:

 

My brother told me that there are no original engine mounts.  He forwarded some photos which depict the original holes used to mount the engine.  I am attaching those photos.

 

In one of the photos that I previously posted, the number 16927 is carved into the wood.  Would you know what that number means?  I am attaching another copy of that photo.

 

Thank you very much.

 

With kind regards,

 

Kevan

[Kevan]

My brother and I are now convinced that this is a 1901 Ford, and not the 1902 that I originally posted.

 

After a thorough search online, it appears that there are many replica cars from 1901, but I could not find any other original Fords from 1901, other than some  1901 prototypes that are in museums.

 

Can anyone suggest how I can determine if the car that I have is a genuine Ford, and not a replica?  Or if it is a prototype?

 

In an earlier post, I pointed out that the car has a number stamped into the wood, (see photos).  Does anyone know what that number is?

 

Thank you,

 

Kevan

[mikewest]

Your car is not period. Its a 1960s replica. The motor in it is most likely correct. I was at WalT Disney world a few years ago and they have one that is a dead ringer for yours. Its not 120 +/- years old.

[E_Johnson]

It appears you have a "1901 Ford Runabout" manufactured by Vintage Reproductions, Inc.,  Ft. Lauderdale, FL.  It's a go kart/toy from the 1960s/70s.

 

Do some Googling and/or post photos and ask questions in the factory built replicas forum on the AACA.org website.

 

Here is some info on Vintage Reproductions, Inc. including scans that you can enlarge by clicking on them.

 

https://www.svvs.org/1977_Surrey_Gadabout_Series_1900.shtml

 

Video:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K19Z21Rb3i4

 

One for sale with multiple pictures:

 

http://topclassiccarsforsale.com/ford/286961-1901-ford-horseless-carriage-replica-by-vintage-reproductions.html