DBKissel

Oil Pump prime needed- 1927 Kissel 8-75 ?

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I have  a 1927 Kissel Brougham with a Lycoming engine block [8-75].  Recently I pulled the oil pan to clean it [just bought the car].  There was 1/2 inch of sludge / oil crap that I got out and had cleaned.  After putting the pan back on and filling with oil I noticed after 20-30 seconds I wasn't getting any oil pressure.  I ran the engine another 20-30 seconds and nothing.  Now being concerned, I removed the exterior oil pressure regulator to inspect.  The gasket was deteriorated and could have allowed a relief of pressure, but it worked before I pulled the pan so that did not seem to be the root problem.   Have since pulled the pan [with extreme difficulty- see Permatex post]  Inspected and verified the gears look OK etc.  Saw no gear or foreign broken parts.  The main oil gear locks in and turns with the cam turning.  This also drives the distributor on top of the head.  Since it starts and runs, gearing should be OK.   Noticed yellow/ gold color on drive gear coming off the cam shaft.

I'm wondering if I need to prime the pump.  I never had to do this on any other oil pan drop.  If this is necessary I could try to pump oil to the pump by removing the pressure regulator.  How long can I safely let the engine run without oil pressure?  I see dripping oil from the cam so there seems to be some present.  Suggestions please.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Posted (edited)

You might be able to pump some oil into the gauge fitting hole. If you can get enough in there it will wet down the gears to help them draw enough suction to pick up oil. It's often a good idea to pack the gears with light grease when assembling a dry oil pump.

Edited by misterc9 (see edit history)

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If you have never seen the gauge on the dash work, perhaps you should use a modern alternative during process of figuring this out.

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Hi John,  Using 15w40.  Same as was in there before pulling the pan.   Now put 30 wt non detergent in, but the viscosity isn't really that much different as when pouring it.

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I also bought a cheap add on gauge, even though the dash one was working.  This is temporary for use in trouble shooting.  It's near the oil pressure reg so  I can monitor.

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55 minutes ago, misterc9 said:

You might be able to pump some oil into the gauge fitting hole. If you can get enough in there it will wet down the gears to help them draw enough suction to pick up oil. It's often a good idea to pack the gears with light grease when assembling a dry oil pump.

 Pan is back on.  I like your idea of the grease packing , but will try to back fill with oil so I don't have to pull pan again.  THX

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3 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Ask around a while more, but try straight 40 weight.

I may have to...

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You could rig up a container of oil that can be pressurized with air. 10 pounds would be plenty. Connect to the oil gauge fitting and feed oil in for a few minutes to be sure all the bearings are getting oil then start the motor. With luck, you will have filled the pump as well as the oil passages and it will begin working. I am thinking a small weed sprayer would make a good pressure vessel.

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Sounds like a great idea- will advise how it goes.

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I don't know much about the particular oil pump you are dealing with but I was thinking:

 

 Is the oil relief valve set correctly? Is the spring OK?  (I am assuming its spring loaded and adjustable) Is it seating properly?

Any or all of these things could cause it to dump oil through the relief valve and build little to no pressure.

 

I can't imagine you should ever have to prime the oil pump. It should pickup within seconds.

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5 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

You could rig up a container of oil that can be pressurized with air. 10 pounds would be plenty. Connect to the oil gauge fitting and feed oil in for a few minutes to be sure all the bearings are getting oil then start the motor. With luck, you will have filled the pump as well as the oil passages and it will begin working. I am thinking a small weed sprayer would make a good pressure vessel.

Thanks to everyone for suggestions.  Happy to say pressurizing the system from the exterior seems to have solve the problem.  I used a suction gun [similar in construction to a grease gun, but for suction for anyone who has not see one].  I put 1/2 qt of oil in it and with fittings forced the oil into the system as Rusty and others have suggested.  Started it up and 20 seconds later had pressure.  I haven't reconnected the original dash pressure gauge yet and can't definitively say where the problem was, but really happy to move on.  Thx again!!

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I had an antique automobile years ago that had the oil pump a solid six inches above the full crankcase level. If it sat too long (four months or more), about half the time, the oil would have flowed down enough it wouldn't pick up immediately. If the gauge ( an original in very nice condition) did not register pressure within ten or so seconds from starting, I would shut it down and remove an accessible fitting to prime it. Switching from 30 wt (what the previous owner used) to 40 wt did help.

This is a common problem with early low pressure systems, with mounted high oil pumps (common on many era cars), and modern multi-viscosity oils.

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Here is my oil priming device made from some steel pipe, some fittings, a Schrader valve, and plastic tubing.  I did later add a shut-off valve on the plastic tube.  I've used it before trying to start the engine to be sure there is oil where it should be.  

 

Unscrew the cap, fill the pipe with oil, reassemble, attach the tube to fitting on the oil gallery, and pressurize with 30-40 psi air.  Open the valve and in the oil goes.  

 

As you discovered, some grease on the gears helps to get the pump going.

 

oiler.thumb.jpg.15ca4586a25150248b5389f80135a1ee.jpg

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Thx again for help and suggestions.  I had not used any multiviscosity  oils until another owner convinced me of the value in making starting easier.  I was using ND 30wt and changing at the end of a summer season [which most times was <100 miles.]  I'm now better equipped to deal with an issue I never had before. 

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DBKissel, I like it when someone adds a topic asking for help and then actually comes back to tell everyone what solved there issue. Thanks

 

Many times this is not the case and we are left hanging as to whether their issue was resolved.

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