DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 So I pulled the oil pan on my 1927 Kissel which has a Lycoming 8 cyl block and Kissel designed AL drain pan. After cleaning it, I was strongly urged to use "The Right Stuff" by Permatex to use as a gasket maker. Followed the instructions to the letter and was done. A new problem developed and I had no oil pressure so I went to take off the pan. Impossible. The bond was so strong that I had to make a jig and use a 12 ton bottle jack to pop it free. [I tried a 2 ton and it would not budge]. I estimate the force required to be about 4-6 tons. Very happy the oil level bolt holes did not give way on the casting. The sealant left an almost microscopic thin film which besides the unbelievable shear strength, left no room for any sharpened chisel etc to get in. The pan is about 39 inches long x 12 inched wide with a 1 inch gasket surface. Don't use this on any wide & long gasket surface. I tried to reach Permatex for suggestions- nothing- COVID-19 everyone is at home... Hope this helps someone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 Consider yourself lucky you didn't deform the pan. Twer it me I would cut a gasket from cork and if necessary use Permatex aviation sealer...............Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 I purchaceda 350 crate engine and removed the valve covers to instal alum. ones. I had to pry them off from several locations and when I was done they were trash. I don't know what sealent they used but I bet that they would have never leaked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Bhigdog said: Consider yourself lucky you didn't deform the pan. Twer it me I would cut a gasket from cork and if necessary use Permatex aviation sealer...............Bob Totally agree, only I would have bought the gasket from Olsen's. Gasket design was always meant to allow eventual disassembly, not permanently glue things together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) Yikes, you fell victim to BAD advice - you should make a paper or a cork gasket - nothing too thick is probably fine, but probably 1/16 inch thick is most ever needed. You make "little arrow things" to join the pan gaskets pieces as they are generally large than auto parts stock. Use gasket sealer on one side to hold into place for easier installation. Olsen's has plenty of gaskets for most anything - always worth asking. Not to offend, though I question engineering too regarding getting pan off - maybe I am missing something but ... (putting a jack on old cast iron and/or aluminum ... - you stand a good chance of breaking something near unobtainium - usually when I stumble into these "calked" things it is an Exacto-knife and putty knife/hammer kind of project matched to time and patience. Also, cars drip oil - let them drip oil. Ex. If your bolts go all the way through to inside of block then they POSSIBLY would have copper/asbestos crush washers under the heads verses calking all the bolts. Edited June 28, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 McMaster-Carr has just about any type of gasket material you would need. As others have stated, you're lucky you didn't damage something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Thx John, I have used RTV formulations for gasket making in the past and never ran into this. I too was extremely concerned about breaking the AL casting [since they are not easily replaced. ] I would never consider this product again. There was no room for anything like a putty knife, sharpened chisel, etc. Plus the entire seam had to release at one time, not just a corner and then work along it. This seal only has to keep oil from dripping out the edge so SUPER "The Right Stuff' just isn't called for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearsFan315 Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 OUCH.... doing all my gaskets i use either Cork (brown), FibreRubber (black), or Cellulose (blue for water areas) (buy it in sheets from Fel-Pro and cut my own) I do use a little Permatex No 2 (non hardening, stays soft) on my oil pan cork corners & the side push rod cover on the 1929 Chevrolet. nice thing is the No 2 stays pliable and you can remove it with Rubbing alcohol and a little elbow grease. i soak a paper towel in alcohol and let it sit then the permatex No cleans off nicely. can easily remove my oil pan and reuse the gaskets no problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, 46 woodie said: McMaster-Carr has just about any type of gasket material you would need. As others have stated, you're lucky you didn't damage something. Quick delivery too ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Just an fyi, I thought I was going to have to pull the engine and have the pan surgically cut off and machined /resurfaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 I caught in first post - you have run this car before ? If so, perhaps your oil is too thin of a weight. I see the pre-priming issue all the time, but a pump like that I doubt has anything in it to prevent back-flow, so that would mean a pre-prime every time you run it and it certainly was not designed to have that issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Yes the car has been running. I think within 10-15 sec one would see oil pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 I actually prefer Permatex Ultra. It does seal extremely well, and it's tough to get off. Your problem with pan removal was the fact that you didn't use the correct tool. OTC has offered a pan seal cutter tool for years, as OEMs have been using RTV in this application for a couple of decades now. This is basically a thin blade with hammer surfaces that let you force it into the seal and then tap sideways to cut the RTV. As always, the right tool for the job makes life much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 My Overland engine and oil pump were full of blue silicone pieces from over-use of silicone gasket material. I like The Right Stuff, however, though I try to use it judiciously. I recently removed a Citroen oil pan (on which I'd used Right Stuff) with a thin putty knife, and it came off without problems. A thin coat of oil on one surface makes separation easier. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomEli Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 That OTC pan seal cutter tool is $83. Yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Not sure if it would fit- I'm not exaggerating when I said the film was less that a sheet of printer paper thin. I got this stuff apart, but wanted everyone to be ware of the danger of using it on the wrong surfaces. Thx for coment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broker-len Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 I am against using any thing when putting on a gasket had the same problem motor rebuild shop urged me to put some thing with a new gasket for the pan they put something on the wrong way so I had to drop the pan very hard getting it off then found the cam gear was bad had to take the front of motor off made sure both surfaces were clean and straight just a good quality gasket and only gasket on pan no leaks and as with these hobby cars that you are never done with I can get it apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 2 hours ago, MochetVelo said: My Overland engine and oil pump were full of blue silicone pieces from over-use of silicone gasket material. I like The Right Stuff, however, though I try to use it judiciously. I recently removed a Citroen oil pan (on which I'd used Right Stuff) with a thin putty knife, and it came off without problems. A thin coat of oil on one surface makes separation easier. Phil A very thin coat might be OK. Following directions of 1/8 to 1/4 inch bead against 2 very well machine surfaces and then tightening to "req'd torque" in 5 minutes or less results in full surface coating and glue effect. Thx Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, broker-len said: I am against using any thing when putting on a gasket had the same problem motor rebuild shop urged me to put some thing with a new gasket for the pan they put something on the wrong way so I had to drop the pan very hard getting it off then found the cam gear was bad had to take the front of motor off made sure both surfaces were clean and straight just a good quality gasket and only gasket on pan no leaks and as with these hobby cars that you are never done with I can get it apart I think this makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 3 hours ago, DBKissel said: Yes the car has been running. I think within 10-15 sec one would see oil pressure. No, not what I mean - the car has run in your eyesight with oil pressure prior to all of the work you did this week and had oil pressure regarding pan, pump, and regulator ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) Non pressurized with a correct and well fitted gasket no "sealant" is required. Using one just makes your life more complicated than need be...............Bob Edited June 29, 2020 by Bhigdog (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 With the ignition off 30 seconds of the starter spinning the engine should bring the oil pressure up. Back in the sixties when I had my oil pan off I could not find a gasket and was too lazy to punch all those holes in cork. I started all the capscrews and then wound cotton kitchen string around the outer perimeter of the capscrews twice. Tightened everything up and never had a leak in 100,000+ miles. If I have a proper gasket I just put enough grease or oil on one side so it stays in place, never use any kind of goo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) I once bought a new car (used to have to order what I wanted, now is more "take it or leave it", was really fortunate in my Jeep GC tow car, dealer had exactly what I wanted: 2WD/tow package/bluetooth in the color I like. Got a great deal because in early '12 everyone still wanted a minivan or "trail rated") MWBATR was a new GM car and was so full of "engine sealer" the radiator (HD option) was completely clogged. Didn't make it off the dealer lot before it overheated and spewed coolant everywhere. Personally if I need a gasket, I make one (what the ball on a ball peen hammer is for), and lube it with axle grease - for me it helps both seal and to stay in place. Only use this new fangled stuff under duress. ps anti-seize on the threads usually blocks seepage. Edited June 29, 2020 by padgett (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheezestaak2000 Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 in 12 years as a dealership mechanic, i always used the same thing : 3m yellow weatherstrip adhesive. dried fast, and held the gasket in place. in the event of an ooops, scraped off easily too. i was told to use it back in the 60's by an old timer. i'm not sure why he said to use the yellow, never the black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 29, 2020 Author Share Posted June 29, 2020 Thx CS2K, I'll never use this again and learned from you and others the benefits of a gasket! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akstraw Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Thanks DBKissel. Informative discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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