c.kielstra Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 Hello, everybody, My name is Catrinus Kielstra from Holland. I have a Buick from 1923 roadster 6 cylinder black. I would like to place a picture but I can't, I'll try again. My English is bad, because I use a translation computer. My block was broken and I bought another block in California. Now I have new piston springs mounted. But now the Demy Relco can't pull the engine. Because of the new piston rings the engine runs heavy. When I pull the pin out and the brush comes on the anchor it turns quickly. We now want to build in the motor first and then tow it. Somebody might have a suggestion. Kind regards Catrinus Kielstra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 Make sure the battery is fully charged, Make sure the battery has good, clean, solid, ground path all the way back to the starter motor. After it has ran for a short period it should turn over easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 The motor is either rebuilt too tight or something is wrong. Unfortunately now you need to deal with it. Remove the spark plugs and try using the starter to turn the engine. If it doesn’t turn, remove the engine and fix it. If it turns over your only option is to tow it to start it. It’s not a good idea, but it offers a small chance of not removing the engine. The motor should have not been reinstalled without running it on a stand......common problem we see much too often. Good luck......unfortunately your going to need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.kielstra Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Hello everyone, Thank you for your quick response. The engine's still on a buck. It's not in the car yet. When the spark plug's out, it's still turning pretty heavy. Can't the Delco Remy pull much? We're thinking about getting the crankcase out from underneath. And take out the pistons. And mount a used piston ring. If we try 12 volts for a second, would that be a problem? The cables to the Remy Delco are heavy. It has a new Otima battery and connections are good. When we put it on contact it turns beautifully. The anchor is not completely clean. Can I look at something else? Or do you have any suggestions? He's on the buck now. If we push the pedal by hand, nothing happens. The flywheel doesn't even move. We've had the block out once before. Then we had six new piston with piston rings made at Egge's. Starting was no problem then. I hope to hear from you. I think it's a wonderful forum. There's a lot of experience on the forum. With kind regards Catrinus Kielstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) If the starter motor can’t turn the rebuilt engine, you have internal problems. My Delco starter turns over my V-12 Pierce Arrow engine with no problem.....and there is three times the moving parts compared to your six. Your crank, your rods, your cam, or the piston/ring clearance is at fault. The crank should spin freely with no effort without the rods or pistons in it. My suspension is you have multiple clearance issues. What did you use for piston clearance, what did you use for ring gap, are your pistons new? Do you have new rod and Main bearings.......sis you pour Babbitt or make inserts? If you used new pistons, did you use modern ring packages, or did you use they four ring set up? There are too many questions to ask........something does not sound right......... Edited June 28, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArticiferTom Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 How is with hand crank ? With out plugs should move easily . I do not think would force with 12 volts . Could damage something just out of alignment . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vila Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) Are the starter cables the proper gauge wire? Modern battery cables are made for 12 volt systems and will not carry the higher amperage required for the older 6 volt systems. Rhode Island Wiring Service Inc should have the correct starter cables for your car. https://www.riwire.com Edited June 28, 2020 by Vila (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.kielstra Posted June 28, 2020 Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Thank you for your reaction I used my own crankshaft. Those rotate perfectly. The bearings are fine too. I used my own connecting rods with piston pins. I got six pistons on the block. They belonged to that block. Those were nice pistons. They fit nicely in the block, too. The piston rings weren't under a lot of tension,so we put new ones on them.The block was disassembled anyway. And that's why we changed the piston springs. We first fitted the piston rings into the block. There was a millimetre space between them to fit nicely. There are four piston rings around it. I think the tension on the outside is too strong from the piston rings. Without spark plugs,it's pretty hard to turn. I have no idea what the Delco Remy can pull. The cables from the battery to the starter and the chassis are 55 Squared (those are really thick cables that don't get warm during starting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 Ok, so I understand correctly that you used all the original parts that you removed, and just installed new rings and bearings. Clearly something is not correct. With the spark plugs removed the engine should turn over with out too much effort. I have seen rings bind up an engine in the past. Depending on piston diameter you ring end gap one millimeter may or may not be correct. I don’t think I would attempt to start the engine. I recommend you disassemble the engine and start over again. Yes, it’s work, but better now than after you install it or try and run it. I’m guessing that the rings available for your older pistons were not available off the shelf So you individually ordered them? Early cars had large oil rings beneath the wrist pin........is that how your car is set up? Maybe some photos of the pistons before and after? We can’t be much help here without seeing photos. In any event, I would plan on disassembling the engine......I would pull the head and oil pan, and remove the rods and pistons.......then turn the crank by hand to be sure it’s free. I expect from what you have said your rings are dragging to heavily for some reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArticiferTom Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 I found 55mm square to be equal to #1 AWG . Bigger would not hurt , other please chime in . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelsBuicks Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 First let me say I am not familiar with this engine. My experience is with 1931 and newer but I’ll offer a suggestion. Are the rod caps fitted with shims on this motor? If so, did you remove any shims to help with any wear in the crank and rod babbitt? You may have slightly flat rod journals and used that flat side to gauge how many shims to remove. If so, they would become very tight upon turning and give the problem you are describing. If you suspect this, consider loosening the rod caps one at a time to see if it frees up. I suppose you can also loosen crank main bearing caps If needed to find the problem. Whatever you do, keep in mind that if you just disassemble and then start over, you will very likely end up at the same place. You need to take every opportunity to diagnose the cause. I doubt your problem is due to tight pistons or rings. good luck to you and please let us know what you find. -Joel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) Piston ring gap for a 3" piston (1925 Buick Standard 6) should be .014" to .016". Maximum is .020" per the shop manual. This should have been checked before the pistons were fit. The oil control ring could likely be a little wider. You can use a 12 volt battery to jump your 6 volt starter generator. It would be for a short duration with plenty of time for cooling. My first effort would be with all the plugs out, turning it by the hand crank. If it feels right, then try it with the electric motor with the plugs out. Has the starter generator been inspected and serviced? Before I rebuilt a rebuilt motor (unless you don't trust the rebuilder), I would have the Starter/Generator rebuilt first. It sounds like it needs to be cleaned up as well. When you do put the spark plugs in it, consider using starting fluid in the carburetor to minimize excess cranking of the engine. This should help with going thru your starter generator. Hugh https://forums.aaca.org/topic/310353-understanding-the-combination-starter-generator/ If you need me to send the starter generator procedure in text so that it can be translated, let me know. Edited June 29, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 5 hours ago, JoelsBuicks said: First let me say I am not familiar with this engine. My experience is with 1931 and newer but I’ll offer a suggestion. Are the rod caps fitted with shims on this motor? If so, did you remove any shims to help with any wear in the crank and rod babbitt? You may have slightly flat rod journals and used that flat side to gauge how many shims to remove. If so, they would become very tight upon turning and give the problem you are describing. If you suspect this, consider loosening the rod caps one at a time to see if it frees up. I suppose you can also loosen crank main bearing caps If needed to find the problem. Whatever you do, keep in mind that if you just disassemble and then start over, you will very likely end up at the same place. You need to take every opportunity to diagnose the cause. I doubt your problem is due to tight pistons or rings. good luck to you and please let us know what you find. -Joel Adding to this, did you place the main crank and conrod caps back to their original positions ie. did you mark where the caps came off from and put them back there? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Gentlemen, with the plugs out it still won't turn with the starter.........He said the crank spun free before he installed the pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kikta Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 I installed new rings in my 1922 original pistons and after assembly ( I checked all bearings and ring gaps to be good) after turning the motor over with the crank to try to prime the oil pump, with the plugs out it seemed to get harder to turn over. So I squirted a lot of oil in each cylinder and after sitting overnight, it cranked much easier. I did that again about 1week later and my engine now starts and runs fine. Just another thought😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Brink Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Looks like he measured the ring gap at 1mm which is equal to 0.03937007874 so is much wider than spec listed by Hugh so I think Joel is probably right in thinking something is amiss with the crankshaft - either rods or mains. Imagine the place to start is with Joel's suggestion to begin checking rod caps & mains to see if they are causing the binding and proceed from there. Good luck, Catrinus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert_25-25 Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Attached is a photo display that I took and put together in power point before disassembling my 1925 Buick Standard engine. I went across the engine block and photographed each bearing so that I know which way the caps were placed. The connecting rod arrows are supposed to point to the rear. The marks on the main bearings pointed to the front. There are also 1 thru 6 punch marks on one side of each half of the connecting rod big end so that you can not mix these up. The pistons are labeled front. If you go back in, document the positions, plastigauge the bearings, rotate the engine during assembly to ensure nothing was installed incorrectly. Hugh 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critterpainter Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Thinking outside the box here. By any chance did the water pump decide to try to seize? If it is dragging or if the packing is binding it could cause an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 Excellent point to be made! This is what happens when a water pump seizes in operation. Cause... Effect. I just went through my 1925 Master lower end and plastigaged the rod bearings. Most already had the shims removed. I adjusted shims on #1 and # 2 since they were the only ones that still had shims. The others I dressed the caps a bit to get all at the .002 tolerance. With the spark plugs out turning over the engine by the hand crank the engine still spins over very easy. I also loosened the packing nuts on the water pump shaft. So all was free. I still have to make a new shaft and bushings for that pump as it is very worn and sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.kielstra Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 Hello, everybody. Thank you for all your comments. We towed the car for a few miles without turning on the ignition, then filled the vacuum jar with petrol. After dragging the car for a few kilometres we turned on the ignition. It wouldn't run at first,spark plug out.They were dry. Cylinders filled with gas.Then trying to start the starter engine,it didn't go great.Then towed it again,and there it was.It doesn't get gas.It didn't run very well.I want new spark plugs in it.What about spark plugs? We let it run.Then stopped.And tried the starter.The starter got it pretty good.The engine was smoother. Then we got the following problem. We had an external oil gauge fitted. To make sure the oil pressure gauge was okay, but it didn't have any oil pressure. The engine stopped. Before we mounted the oil pump we tried the oil pump with a battery drill and an oil pressure gauge, and it was good. You can buy another oil pump in the USA or have it repaired. A few pictures of building it in. With kind regards from Holland Catrinus Kielstra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 MY FIRST THOUGHT IS THAT THE ROD OR MAIN BEARINGS ARE SET TOO TIGHT. THE ROD BEARING CLEARANCE SHOULD BE 0.002. In the 1927 shop manual it says to remove shims from the main berarings until you have metal to metal contact. Then add a .0.015 to 0.025 shim to each side of the bearing cap. I could not find any specificatins in any of the earlier books that I have. My opinion is 0.002 plasigauge clearance would be good. I too have heard of the pin holding the water pump impeler coming out and freezing the engine. These are things that can be checked before pulling pistons. Fred 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Rawling Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 It looks like I am late with the above message. I started it at 7 this morning and got called away. Check the oil lines to be sure that they are not full of crud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 I like the drip oiler setup on the water pump shaft bearing. Not quite original, but, it'll certainly do the job. Terry Wiegand Out in HOT Doo Dah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.kielstra Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 Hello, everybody, Maybe we found the error of the heavy twisting. The spelling between the piston rings in the cylinder was correct. Only the piston rings don't go deep enough in the piston. Next week we're going to turn the pistons out a little bit. And then we will try again. In the oil pump there is a gear with play. We'll see if we can flatten the oil pump a little. And there are also very small grooves in the lid. We will try to remove them on a glass plate with very fine sandpaper grain 3000. We have a drawing of the pump. Only he is a bit unclear. I made a line on the drawing with a question mark. Is that a ring? Or does anyone have a clear drawing? Kind regards Catrinus Kielstra (Continues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Having a ring problem would make perfect sense. Glad you took it down. It’s always hard to pull a new motor apart, but it’s the best thing in the long run,I doubt any issue in thr oil pump would cause binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oregon Desert model 45 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 ?? is pointing to oil pressure relief valve plunger. Part circled in red below is from a 1924 oil pump and should be similar to 1923. The spring that pushes on this plunger should be in good condition or else oil will leak past the plunger and oil pressure to the engine bearings may be low. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Glad you found it. Grinding the oil pump plate on glass works well you can use 400 wet or dry. and some patience, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Also the long driving shaft gear on all 3 of my 1925 cars pumps were badly worn. I did lap the bottom plate to remove the scars. I had the driven gear turned true and had a new bushing made. Total error for wear was almost .025 The drive collar also had a pin that was almost ready to shear off. I made a new one from a 5/16" drill rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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