The upside of down prices

[1912Staver]

Hi Craig, I am not actually on the Island. About 40 minutes East of Vancouver proper in the Fraser valley. So Vancouver island looks cheap to me. My house as it is was paid off a couple of years ago , I couldn't have retired if I was still paying the morgage as well.  But it sucked my wallet dry for 20 years and still continues to do so

due to a rebuild program intending to turn a disaster of a old Farm house { unfortunately built by farmers 80 years ago rather than carpenters } into a livable house. The fun never ends. Leaves scant time and $ for things mechanical.

 The wife has been reasonably tolerant of the car hobby. But she is definitely becoming impatient about the house..

Greg

Edited June 29, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Have too look to the US for the masters of the printing press. Anyone ever hear of Fisk and Gould ?

[Ed Luddy]

9 hours ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

To be worse than us will require a lot of extra effort.

Thats one thing our current government is expert at. Fiscal irresponsibility. It gets worse everyday.

[kfle]

On 6/27/2020 at 7:56 PM, 1912Staver said:

 

Very well said Ed. I would be following in your footsteps except " She who must be obeyed ", does not share our passion or priorities.  As these things go she is probably as good as most , but still a long away from what you are saying . A small galaxy ? It gets very hard to fit both a hobby and a western Canadian sized house expense into a retired , average middle class  guy 's budget. I keep trying , but it is a painfully slow proposition.

 

Greg

My wife is very supportive but does not do any tours, shows, or car activities with me.    How is she so supportive?  I just found the right cars to get her that she can drive and have some fun with herself.  Here is one I got her three weeks ago that she just loves to drive around the lake, even though she doesn’t like clubs, shows, or other typical car activities.  I just have to do some maintenance on it, she is very happy, and then I got two additional cars for myself.  Wish I had a fix for the high housing costs where you are at. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by kfle (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/26/2020 at 11:04 PM, padgett said:

Henry Manney complaining that his Cobra was worth too much to drive.

 

I have a friend with a Hemi Road Runner. Don't think it ever leaves the garage driving, trailer only.

 

David Cammack told us Corvair owners, who were visiting his Tucker collection in Alexandria, that it was nice to see people driving the cars they loved. The Tuckers were too valuable to drive, so they only got driven into the alley to be washed. Hard to keep them running right doing that!😉

[8E45E]

22 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Hi Craig, I am not actually on the Island. About 40 minutes East of Vancouver proper in the Fraser valley. So Vancouver island looks cheap to me. My house as it is was paid off a couple of years ago , I couldn't have retired if I was still paying the morgage as well.  But it sucked my wallet dry for 20 years and still continues to do so

due to a rebuild program intending to turn a disaster of a old Farm house { unfortunately built by farmers 80 years ago rather than carpenters } into a livable house. The fun never ends. Leaves scant time and $ for things mechanical.

Greg

I know were Langley is as my mom currently lives there.  ANYWHERE in the Fraser Valley with a decent sized lot is $850K minimum; even if its an old farmhouse.

 

I like the area for the most part, but agreed, the Island is more affordable, and that is where I've been looking.

 

Craig

[edinmass]

17 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

I have a friend with a Hemi Road Runner. Don't think it ever leaves the garage driving, trailer only.

 

David Cammack told us Corvair owners, who were visiting his Tucker collection in Alexandria, that it was nice to see people driving the cars they loved. The Tuckers were too valuable to drive, so they only got driven into the alley to be washed. Hard to keep them running right doing that!😉

 

 

Too valuable to drive?????????? BS. I understand show car and trailer.......to an extent. Once your done showing it what are you going to do with it....look at it? At Pebble Beach you see 20 million dollar cars driving around like F150's. Last month a very nice lady in her mid 60's was driving an Alfa 2.9 factory racer.....another car in the 25 million dollar range. I watched her unload it from the upper deck of a tractor trailer. She started it, warmed it up, and then expertly drove it into a difficult location............an impressive feat for anyone with such a racer. The Tucker guys don't drive their cars for a reason........they are not well made and have lots of problems.......a few guys have actually made the effort to sort them........but its very few of them. Since you can buy new cars today for three to five million and drive them out of the dealership, there is nothing special about any collector car being "too expensive to drive".

Edited June 30, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[8E45E]

7 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Since you can buy new cars today for three to five million and drive them out of the dealership, there is nothing special about any collector car being "too expensive to drive".

Or LIVE in!! https://www.marathoncoach.com/

 

Craig

[1912Staver]

The person who owns the 2.9 Alfa knows that regardless of what disaster strikes the car , insurance will pay for a rebuild back to the same condition it was in before the unfortunate event. Someone who owns one of these cars could almost certainly

pay any insurance shortfall out of pocket. 

Cars like hemi Road Runners can get written off and the owner left with cash but the car is gone. And depending on how close they were cutting things to afford the car in the first place might well be underinsured.

It's all relative to how deep the pockets of the respective owners are. If you are a multi millionaire almost any car is cheap enough to drive. The rest of us generally are a bit more timid about using special cars in general use situations.

Insurance company's can at times be very difficult to deal with regarding repairs on non mainstream cars. The wealthy can afford gold plated coverage, the rest of us are somewhat at the mercy of the insurance industry.

 

Greg in Canada

[1912Staver]

11 hours ago, kfle said:

My wife is very supportive but does not do any tours, shows, or car activities with me.    How is she so supportive?  I just found the right cars to get her that she can drive and have some fun with herself.  Here is one I got her three weeks ago that she just loves to drive around the lake, even though she doesn’t like clubs, shows, or other typical car activities.  I just have to do some maintenance on it, she is very happy, and then I got two additional cars for myself.  Wish I had a fix for the high housing costs where you are at. 

 

 

Unfortunately it's not just housing that is expensive around here, although that particular sector is world class expensive . Second most unaffordable  city in the world, average wages vs average prices. It's the overall cost of living in general.

Many households do most of their shopping right next door in Washington State in order to make ends meet. Covid has stopped that.

 The problem is the flood { really a Tsunsami } of offshore money that has come into the region since the year 2000. It has distorted our entire economy and left people who earn a living locally at a real disadvantage.

Elderly parents locally so my wife has no interest in moving. Also few western Canadian locations offer a price low enough to make a move worthwhile without being in the middle of nowhere or stuck in a snow drift for 1/2 the year.

Our geography is very limiting.

As Craig suggests , Vancouver Island is a partial solution to the high property pricing of the mainland. But you are trading one set of problems for another. The ferry is expensive and likely to become more so over time, and the schedule 

leaves a lot to be desired for anyone except tourists with lots of time available.  Old car events are quite a bit more limited than on the mainland. Access to the U.S. involves a lot of extra time and expense. U.S. { Pacific N.W.} swap meets

are much better than any of the Western Canadian events.  Picking up parts orders in the U.S. is essentially impossible. I couldn't afford to be in the hobby if I had to pay Canadian shipping costs on everything  I bought.

 

Greg

Edited June 30, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

I looked up some houses for sale in Langley, British Columbia,

and I can see what you mean about unaffordable housing.

The house below, with an asking price of $3,500,000 Canadian,

would be about $300,000 in my Pennsylvania hometown.  Maybe less:

 

 

And this tiny house pictured below--perhaps a starter house for a

very budget-minded 22-year-old married couple but priced at 

$925,000 Canadian, would be about $30,000.  I know that

I myself could never move to that area and thrive, despite 

British Columbia's beauty!

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Family ties and no one else interested in moving but I could get into rural PA, especially the Lancaster area for sure.  As an aside, when you spend any time there it is apparent that it has a big antique car culture and general interest in the past and rural lifestyle.  Nice country!

[padgett]

Be hard to touch anything in Orange county under $100k but if you go next door to Lake county (Clermont) can find some nice places on a bit of land. Saw the same thing happen in California and Houston but Florida is pretty low cost of living (mainly because is uninhabitable to Northerners in the summer).

[1912Staver]

45 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I looked up some houses for sale in Langley, British Columbia,

and I can see what you mean about unaffordable housing.

The house below, with an asking price of $3,500,000 Canadian,

would be about $300,000 in my Pennsylvania hometown.  Maybe less:

 

 

And this tiny house pictured below--perhaps a starter house for a

very budget-minded 22-year-old married couple but priced at 

$925,000 Canadian, would be about $30,000.  I know that

I myself could never move to that area and thrive, despite 

British Columbia's beauty!

 

 

I suspect the 3.5 Mill . place has some acreage  attached,  I would suspect 5 Ac., land is gold around here.  Unfortunately the lower house is all to typical of starter home prices.  Young family's are being crushed by  housing prices, rent's aren't much better.

Our Province was in financial trouble in the 1980's and 1990's, the Gvt. streamlined immigration, especially for wealthy " investor "  immigrants. They got Canadian status due to their investment, and brought their extended family's. But most of the 

working people returned to Asia where incomes are large and taxes are almost non existent. They have their Canadian status in their back pocket in case things fall apart in Asia. Hong Kong for example, but also many Mainland Chinese.

  Things were not too bad at first but Asian money became the driver of local pricing. Local earners generally made a lot less and paid far higher taxes on those earnings. Today it is a disaster for many of the locals. Every part of town now has homeless camps,

 people living in cars and vans etc. Something you never saw 25 years ago.

 

Greg

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Greg, I realize you're not in a position to move, but

to any of our other friends in expensive areas:

Consider moving to another place!  Sell that $900,000

starter home and buy a big house for far less.

Invest the difference and buy a few antique cars!

 

To show that affordability is in many places:

Here's a house in West Lafayette, Indiana, a well-kept

college town.  Figuring the exchange rate, this 7000 sq. ft.

house with an asking price of $650,000 is actually LESS

than the tiny British Columbia starter home:

 

 

 

[60FlatTop]

There is something to be said for spending a little extra to live in a college town. I grew up and still live in a college town of about 15,000. Just going the family restaurants within a 15 mile radius shows the advantage a diverse gene pool can make.

 

My wife came to the college from afar and added to that diversity for us. We are all symmetrical in the Christmas pictures.

 

Bernie

[padgett]

I have always preferred warm resorts with no income tax. Used to also need a world class airport but not since retired. Is inexpensive land away from cities (e.g. lake County) and hills even.

[Frank DuVal]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Too valuable to drive?????????? BS.

 

I agree with you!  If I can't drive it, I don't want it.👍

 

 

[alsancle]

14 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

I have a friend with a Hemi Road Runner. Don't think it ever leaves the garage driving, trailer only.

 

David Cammack told us Corvair owners, who were visiting his Tucker collection in Alexandria, that it was nice to see people driving the cars they loved. The Tuckers were too valuable to drive, so they only got driven into the alley to be washed. Hard to keep them running right doing that!😉

 

The reason Tuckers don't get driven is not because they are too valuable.  It is because they by and large don't work.    The Duesenberg tour regularly features 40 or so million dollars worth of cars being driven like they were brand new.

[8E45E]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Every part of town now has homeless camps,  people living in cars and vans etc. Something you never saw 25 years ago.

The same is also true in Seattle, Portland, etc.

 

Craig

[alsancle]

7 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

The person who owns the 2.9 Alfa knows that regardless of what disaster strikes the car , insurance will pay for a rebuild back to the same condition it was in before the unfortunate event. Someone who owns one of these cars could almost certainly

pay any insurance shortfall out of pocket. 

Cars like hemi Road Runners can get written off and the owner left with cash but the car is gone. And depending on how close they were cutting things to afford the car in the first place might well be underinsured.

It's all relative to how deep the pockets of the respective owners are. If you are a multi millionaire almost any car is cheap enough to drive. The rest of us generally are a bit more timid about using special cars in general use situations.

Insurance company's can at times be very difficult to deal with regarding repairs on non mainstream cars. The wealthy can afford gold plated coverage, the rest of us are somewhat at the mercy of the insurance industry.

 

Greg in Canada

 

The insurance coverage is mostly true,  but if it is the car I'm thinking of,  which is an exceedingly rare unmolested and original car,   the value will be hugely impacted by any major crash.   Again,  if it is the car I'm thinking of,  it is more of a 50 million dollar car than 25.   But if it rolled over a few times,  it would be 25.

 

[alsancle]

7 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

The person who owns the 2.9 Alfa knows that regardless of what disaster strikes the car , insurance will pay for a rebuild back to the same condition it was in before the unfortunate event. Someone who owns one of these cars could almost certainly

pay any insurance shortfall out of pocket. 

Cars like hemi Road Runners can get written off and the owner left with cash but the car is gone. And depending on how close they were cutting things to afford the car in the first place might well be underinsured.

It's all relative to how deep the pockets of the respective owners are. If you are a multi millionaire almost any car is cheap enough to drive. The rest of us generally are a bit more timid about using special cars in general use situations.

Insurance company's can at times be very difficult to deal with regarding repairs on non mainstream cars. The wealthy can afford gold plated coverage, the rest of us are somewhat at the mercy of the insurance industry.

 

Greg in Canada

 

The insurance coverage is mostly true,  but if it is the car I'm thinking of,  which is an exceedingly rare unmolested and original car,   the value will be hugely impacted by any major crash.   Again,  if it is the car I'm thinking of,  it is more of a 50 million dollar car than 25.   But if it rolled over a few times,  it would be 25.

 

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

The same is also true in Seattle, Portland, etc.

 

Craig

 

Seattle and Portland also have a serious housing affordability problem. But no where as extreme as that in the Vancouver, Victoria , or Toronto Ontario situation. Also there are lots of alternative 

locations that are substantially  more affordable than Seattle or Portland  that are still reasonably close by and would not be considered isolated at all. Once you leave Vancouver you are soon in very 

rugged , Mountain terrain. A long way to the interior towns and even then very expensive by most standards. No gradual thinning out of density and thus improved affordability like our two Southern neighbors.

Semi rural Washington State property is astonishingly inexpensive by Canadian standards, Oregon is if anything even more so.

A 5 ac. lot just down the street from me caught my attention Summer before last. About 300 ft. into Washington State and about 3 miles due South of my driveway. $75,000.00 ask.  325 Ft. North it would

have been a minimum of $1.5 Million.

 

Greg

[padgett]

Location, location, location. Know a nice newer 5 bdrm 3 car house on 5 acres to the east that will probably go for about $400k. Of course access is a dirt road and borders an area considered "wetlands".

[keithb7]

This housing talk is fun....I currently reside a little north of Greg in British Columbia. Kamloops. I grew up in Greg's area where real estate prices are now out of control. My wife and I wanted to get away from the big city. Raise our kids in a smaller town.  That was 25 years ago when we left Greg's area. Land was somewhat still reasonable then. We made the decision to move away for reasons other than real estate prices at the time. Now today, we would not be willing to buy back into that market in the greater Vancouver area. Our house sale proceeds up here in Kamloops might net us a shack in Greg's area. We love it here in Kamloops. It's still affordable. There are less job options of course in this smaller town, however we were fortunate in that we made out well here. My current home would be considered higher end in Vancouver. Worth probably more than 3X the value here that it is in Kamloops.  No way we could live like this in the BC lower mainland. So here we stay, living out our dream. We feel so very fortunate. 

 

I do have room to build a larger shop, however I have refrained so far. Glad I did as the economy is trending down again here in Canada. I will likely spend the rest of my days, as long as I can in this home. I hope so. We do love it here.

 

Here's us...About a half acre.  Lots of driveway. We get enough snow here that I definitely would not want more driveway to clear.  I have 2 old cars that I get to both keep in the garage. So I am pretty happy to be in the old car hobby. More cars? If I had more garage, yes likely. The current situation keeps me satisfied and, only owning 2 cars. Left to my own devices I might have built that dream shop and own a few more cars...

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

21 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

The insurance coverage is mostly true,  but if it is the car I'm thinking of,  which is an exceedingly rare unmolested and original car,   the value will be hugely impacted by any major crash.   Again,  if it is the car I'm thinking of,  it is more of a 50 million dollar car than 25.   But if it rolled over a few times,  it would be 25.

 

 

 

My number was probably low.......but then again, I am only interested in American cars...........I have driven one of the good 2.9's.................they are nice cars......but for the money, there are twenty five other cars I would rather have.......all for the cost of the one 2.9

[FLYER15015]

20 hours ago, padgett said:

Location, location, location. Know a nice newer 5 bdrm 3 car house on 5 acres to the east that will probably go for about $400k. Of course access is a dirt road and borders an area considered "wetlands".

You talking about all the houses they built on top of the sand mine on HWY 50 between Claremont and Groveland, where the water table is 8 inches higher than their garage floors ?

About 6 miles east of my sister in law's Blueberry farm in Claremont.

 

Mike in Colorado

[Frank DuVal]

On 6/30/2020 at 1:26 PM, alsancle said:

The reason Tuckers don't get driven is not because they are too valuable.  It is because they by and large don't work. 

 

I'm not disputing they have issues, but, the real issue is there were only 50 of them, so no one mechanic has ever had two to work on and learn from one what is wrong with the other. You have a flat head Ford problem, which they do too, and there are a million fixes handed down from prior owners and mechanics!

 

Case in point, Dave had three Tuckers in his garage, no two were alike, as there were factory changes within that first 50. Then some helpful person working on them does their best, but has no idea what they are doing, One of his was positive ground! He had the factory documentation upstairs, I looked, and they were all built negative ground.  Pre-selector gearshift? Need a Cord specialist.

 

How many makes had the first 50 of any vehicle design get it right? The old wive's tale of don''t buy the first year of production.....😉

[Matt Harwood]

The price of housing is one of the main reasons my Canadian (Toronto) wife came to live with me here rather than me moving up there, which was an option before we opened the business. Today we have a good-sized Victorian house on 3/4 acre with a 3-car carriage house that includes an upstairs apartment, all for the cost of a 2-bedroom condo on the outskirts of Toronto. Kids are happy, we have plenty of space for us and cars, and I actually walk to work most days, a distance of about 3 miles each way. In Toronto, Melanie's commute was only about 20 miles, but it took nearly 2 hours with traffic and even if she took the train, she had to get up at 5AM to get to the train station just to get a parking spot. She says the busiest rush hour here in Cleveland is like 10PM on a Sunday night in Toronto.

 

My sister lives in the San Francisco Bay area and is a part of Stanford University. She lives in a 1300 square foot bungalo with 2 bedrooms with her professor husband and two kids. She and her husband probably make several orders of magnitude more money than I do, but they nevertheless have a university-subsidized 50-year mortgage on their $1.6 million home. It wasn't the house they wanted, either--the one they really wanted, they offered $400,000 OVER asking price, and were only the third-highest offer. They own a 5 or 6 year old Toyota Corolla and a 10-year-old Chevy Impala. Almost all of their extra money goes into paying for that house. She saw my house and said it would easily be a $6-7 million dollar house in her neighborhood, but such things don't even exist there anymore (such big lots). On the other hand it's beautiful where she lives, the weather is always perfect, and she's able to work in the cutting edge of her field (pathology and she's been VERY busy during the Coronavirus situation). She says it's worth it to live there so I'm not going to argue the merits of what "value" means to different people. Where you live can have a big impact on your physical and mental health so there are always trade-offs to make that satisfy each individual.

[John_S_in_Penna]

The topic is titled "The Upside of Down Prices."

I see we're discussing the related subject, "The Downside of Up Prices!"

[zepher]

On the subject of housing, when I retire, which will be soon, I will not continue to live in Calif.

I can buy 100 times the house and property out of state and I will be a much happier person away from the Calif nonsense.

[8E45E]

23 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

The topic is titled "The Upside of Down Prices."

I see we're discussing the related subject, "The Downside of Up Prices!"

That's because despite Covid and loss of employment for some, but not all, house prices have NOT declined in price any for the most part.

 

Craig