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Restorer32

1934 Packard 12 question

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3 hours ago, Dave Henderson said:

Why not just tow it to try starting it, then go from there.   I recall starting a long sitting '37 LaSalle that way in the '50's.  (the ratty old rope we used is not recommended however).  One by one the cylinders started catching as the lifters got pumped up.  After being towed a few miles it was hitting on all 8 and could be started by the battery. 
I understand the '32 Packard 12 has some type of hydraulic device actuating the valves, so it might be worth a try.

 

 

DAVE.....too much down side towing a car in that category. Bend a rod or bust valves and you in for 60K to say hello........

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4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

DAVE.....too much down side towing a car in that category. Bend a rod or bust valves and you in for 60K to say hello........

Ed,  Admittedly the LaSalle was somewhat of a beater.  Still, it was important to us and we didn't want to blow it.  We started off cautiously with it in high gear with the clutch being held in, and towed it slowly.   It didn't take much clutch work to determine it would turn without breaking something.  Oil pressure came up and nothing knocking was enough to convince us it was going to be a go situation.  (reminds me of the George Foreman radio liniment ad, "It works for me and it WILL work for you!") 
Naw, you're right, too much at risk.

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20 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

DAVE.....too much down side towing a car in that category. Bend a rod or bust valves and you in for 60K to say hello........

Yep, best deal with it parked - when you get comfortable that it is turning over fast enough, then time to see if you have quality spark, and then if getting gasoline.  

 

As a sidenote:  When cold and recently run I doubt it needs to turn over one revolution to start.  They can be a little cantankerous when hot and they can be cantankerous too when drawing gasoline from tank to fill a fuel bowl. 

 

Add'l sidenote:  Automatic Choke's on 34's can be a bear if not set up properly - you probably need to be manually choking it for short term until you get it going.

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The aggravation continues but there is progress  to report.  On a whim we pulled the starter from a '34 8 I have. Much smaller starter but the same Bendix and same size snout. Guess what...that '34 Standard 8 starter spins that 12 engine over very smartly.  This tells us the problem is still with the 12 starter even though it was rebuilt,  armature rewound and align bored.  Rebuild shop is embarrassed.  Just dropped it off.  We will see what we will see.

 

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Just now, Restorer32 said:

The aggravation continues but there is progress  to report.  On a whim we pulled the starter from a '34 8 I have. Much smaller starter but the same Bendix and same size snout. Guess what...that '34 Standard 8 starter spins that 12 engine over very smartly.  This tells us the problem is still with the 12 starter even though it was rebuilt,  armature rewound and align bored.  Rebuild shop is embarrassed.  Just dropped it off.  We will see what we will see.

 

Here is my guess:

 

Too much paint - a starter needs metal to metal contact all the way through it (aka - they painted everything and then put it together.

 

A brush is hanging up - often caused by too strong a wire (I have seen such with PVC coated wire or wrong gauge)

 

Someone did not understand the winding and has probably put something in it that works size wise, though is the wrong gauge wire or ...

 

Tightening the cable broke the contact on the terminal

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By the way - been there done that on all I have listed above - I usually keep an extra so easier ro keep car on road and just as you did I have a comparison to make it somewhat easy to figure out when someone messes something up.

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Years ago, I recall a friend with a RR Silver Ghost and his griping about magnetos - after a trip home on the tow truck again I asked to see it and he stuck it in my hands - the re-builder had stripped out nearly every screw (or someone working on it) and I asked if the wire was supposed to be that small a gauge - turns out the re-builder had thought it was a 12 volt magneto (which technically I believe it should have been) and it was actually a 6 volt car. 

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32 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

The aggravation continues but there is progress  to report.  On a whim we pulled the starter from a '34 8 I have. Much smaller starter but the same Bendix and same size snout. Guess what...that '34 Standard 8 starter spins that 12 engine over very smartly.  This tells us the problem is still with the 12 starter even though it was rebuilt,  armature rewound and align bored.  Rebuild shop is embarrassed.  Just dropped it off.  We will see what we will see.

 


 

The insane world we live in........

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20 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

turns out the re-builder had thought it was a 12 volt magneto

 

 

??

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2 minutes ago, JACK M said:

 

 

??

Some 20's cars and earlier are actually 12 volt - the gauge of the wire in windings is different than a 6 volt car (which uses a beefier wire).   The same thing can happen with this 34 Packard - someone measures up the field coil size to find something that fits or rewinds the armature with whatever they usually rewind with and it just will not work properly.   Another example is - I cannot tell you the number of 30's cars I see with like 16" gauge wire on the coil to distributor wire or from battery to ignition switch/switch to coil = weak spark.

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I am no magneto expert, but all of the magnetos I have messed with  wouldn't care what the voltage of the car was as it makes its own electricity via magnets.

My limited experience is in boat motors, similar to a lawn mower mag. No battery voltage needed.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I am no magneto expert, but all of the magnetos I have messed with  wouldn't care what the voltage of the car was as it makes its own electricity via magnets.

My limited experience is in boat motors, similar to a lawn mower mag. No battery voltage needed.

That is my general understanding too - the problems I am guessing have to do with combo/dual systems.

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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My current ( no pun intended) theory is that when the shop sent the armature out for rewinding it was rewound as if it were 12 volt.  I am still amazed that an 8 starter would spin the 12 like it did.  We ran the engine for a time and it sounds great. The owner has owned the car now for maybe 3-4 months but hasn't seen it.  Hopefully the starter problem will be resolved and we can deliver the car.  Only other thing we were to do to the car was replace the deteriorated runningboard rubber.

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Since the starter was sent out by you for rewinding the issue must have existed prior to it having been rewound locally, right?  If the root cause is that it's rewound incorrectly, my guess would be that they were merely copying the work done by the rebuilder before them.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

My current ( no pun intended) theory is that when the shop sent the armature out for rewinding it was rewound as if it were 12 volt.  I am still amazed that an 8 starter would spin the 12 like it did.  We ran the engine for a time and it sounds great. The owner has owned the car now for maybe 3-4 months but hasn't seen it.  Hopefully the starter problem will be resolved and we can deliver the car.  Only other thing we were to do to the car was replace the deteriorated runningboard rubber.

 

 

I just did the rubber on our 1934 1108.......must have been from the same batch............show car with no miles but the rubber was falling apart and turning brown and white. Rand's new mats came out nice and look great......but they don't exactly "jump on" to the car......

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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You are right, installing those covers is a "process".  We just glued one up this morning.  I counted 25 clamps.  Covers cost $1400 so you don't want to screw it up.  The ones on the car were new in the '90s but they were cracked up and missing chunks. 

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Posted (edited)

I made my own special clamps along with about 18 from harbor junk..........worked out well...........

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)

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On 6/29/2020 at 12:54 PM, Restorer32 said:

My current ( no pun intended) theory is that when the shop sent the armature out for rewinding it was rewound as if it were 12 volt. 

A very common issue and you would think someone would have matched it at some point and this would never have happened, but .... (albeit the number one problem I would still say is grounding - I saw a 1929 Packard yesterday and they expect it to ground through a polished stainless bolt via their meticulously painted frame (and I opened my mouth to be quickly told they knew what they were doing). 

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Definitely not a grounding problem.  Even with short 20" cables going directly from a 1000 amp hr battery to the starter it cranks the same.  Starter is back at the rebuilder's for another look.  I am still surprised that a Standard 8 '34 starter spun it over just fine.

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I'm sure you've checked, but you don't have too much oil in the crankcase do you?  Like you drained the old oil and added fresh and another mechanic, unaware oil had been added, puts another gallon or more in it?  

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No. Like I said the car cranks and starts just fine with a '34 Standard 8 starter so the problem is with the 12 starter not the engine.

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