1922 Cadillac Suburban

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 6/10/2020 at 3:20 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

...I would say that, if you get a single offer, it will be in the

4 digits, and you should happily pass it on to another collector!

 

On 6/10/2020 at 3:56 PM, edinmass said:

John is 100 percent correct..........and the number probably won't be on the high end of four digits. 

 

Mr. GR8, you can count your blessings when someone

has already offered you a decent amount for the value

of your disassembled car.

 

Now that you say you want to have the garage cleared 

in 6 or 8 weeks, a present offer may be even more fortuitous.

An antique car from a less-than-popular era, even when

assembled, good looking, drivable, and realistically priced,

can take a year to sell.

 

No one was being facetious when valuing your car.

You have a bird in your hand now.  I don't recommend

that you wait for one to come out of the bush!

Edited June 16, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[GR8WHITE]

5 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

 

Mr. GR8, you can count your blessings when someone

has already offered you a decent amount for the value

of your disassembled car.

 

Now that you say you want to have the garage cleared 

in 6 or 8 weeks, a present offer may be even more fortuitous.

An antique car from a less-than-popular era, even when

assembled, good looking, drivable, and realistically priced,

can take a year to sell.

 

No one was being facetious when valuing your car.

You have a bird in your hand now.  I don't recommend

that you wait for one to come out of the bush!

At no point have I said I want x amount for the car or denied anyone’s offer. I have no personal attachment and whatever price it takes to get it out before the house sells, is what it is.  I am only trying to help my mother get rid of it. She will have to come to terms with that as well.

[GR8WHITE]

Finally received better pictures.

[GR8WHITE]

Finally received better pictures.

[GR8WHITE]

[edinmass]

Photos indicate a very nice car before disassembly.........today that car would have never been taken down for a restoration. It's possible the car has suffered from rust on machine surfaces like the rear carrier you can see in the photos.......all part of the gamble of a disassembled car. It's a shame that it doesn't get saved. Maybe a donation to the car restoration college on Colorado? They would take it and assemble it as a class project........maybe the best in memory of the last owner? And a better outcome for all involved?

[John_Mereness]

42 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Photos indicate a very nice car before disassembly.........today that car would have never been taken down for a restoration. It's possible the car has suffered from rust on machine surfaces like the rear carrier you can see in the photos.......all part of the gamble of a disassembled car. It's a shame that it doesn't get saved. Maybe a donation to the car restoration college on Colorado? They would take it and assemble it as a class project........maybe the best in memory of the last owner? And a better outcome for all involved?

There is a lot of misunderstanding about restoration and how "easy" it is - it literally took 1000's of people to build a car when new and someone wants to go recreate the wheel.  In the 70's though, this car was thought to be part of where the collector car market was going - a worthy project.  Unfortunately, today it takes some serious love for someone to restore a 20's sedan as it is just so labor intensive matched to EXPENSIVE.  The good news is it really does look like this car is in a much better place to handle than most (looks like a super solid project).  I will say I have run around with my head chopped off (and for hours/days) to find a few specialized Auburn bolts/pieces that the fellow who rebuilt the engine lost and makes me want to get Model A Ford's, Mustang's, and 1957 Chevrolet's for my next restoration project (aka certain jigsaw puzzles have their challenges).

[JACK M]

A good bunch of pics, Someone will buy this.

I agree that you wont be able to retire off of it but a good project for the right buyer.

[JO BO]

I like that show Garage Squad......submit the story to them about your grandpa and how you would like to see it back together in his memory etc..Maybe they will come and do it for the show.......

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, JO BO said:

I like that show Garage Squad......submit the story to them about your grandpa and how you would like to see it back together in his memory etc..Maybe they will come and do it for the show.......

 

Hmmmm?

Stranger things have happened.

[m-mman]

On 6/16/2020 at 3:58 PM, GR8WHITE said:

 I am only trying to help my mother get rid of it. She will have to come to terms with that as well.

 

Something for us to remember.

While we might want this project to move at the speed of a typical car for sale deal, "mom" is likely dealing with the vagaries of an estate and perhaps that includes probate(?)  

We understand the value of a solid offer, but perhaps a court somewhere requires an appraisal? maybe multiple offers?  

 

Mom might also be dealing with lots of other business details and not realize that from many perspectives, this is nothing more than a collection of (scrap) metal that you would have to pay someone to haul away as part of finalizing escrow in a real estate transaction.  

We have experience and know that moving this project is more specialized and will take longer than the job of moving the furniture out of the house. The person dealing with finalizing the estate does not have this experience. Old cars are specialized and are difficult for outsiders to understand. 

We all hope for a happy ending. 

[Jim Skelly]

11 hours ago, edinmass said:

Photos indicate a very nice car before disassembly.........today that car would have never been taken down for a restoration. It's possible the car has suffered from rust on machine surfaces like the rear carrier you can see in the photos.......all part of the gamble of a disassembled car. It's a shame that it doesn't get saved. Maybe a donation to the car restoration college on Colorado? They would take it and assemble it as a class project........maybe the best in memory of the last owner? And a better outcome for all involved?

As Ed suggested, contact McPherson College in Kansas.  If you donate it to them, your Mom could get a tax deduction and the car will get saved. 

[hidden_hunter]

On 6/14/2020 at 5:50 AM, C Carl said:

As Mark accurately predicted, there was no interest at all at $8500 in todays soft and tanking market. At zero bids, the ceiling on this car was not established, much less the '22. The engine on the '22 has been sitting for 40+ years. It may be frozen also. In any case, if not already dismantled, it will need to be at least partially dismantled. Serious expensive damage to valve train components will result from turning the engine for more than a fraction of a degree. Ask Stuart, (Hidden Hunter), about this vulnerability.

 

Yep, that top cover is very fragile with the cam shaft running through it - though thankfully it is an interchange part. Parts for these are hard to find and expensive (e.g $600 for an unusable gas tank because it has a heavily worn gauge in it) If you do end up going down the parting out route let me know and I might be interested in some pieces (can't take a whole car back here to Australia!). They are also huge cars which would make them impractical for a lot of folks I suspect (my 5 passenger coupe below is bigger than a current generation BMW X5) 

 

It's also a bit hard to tell from the photos if this is a type-61 or v63 (v63 has a balanced crankshaft) but I spy in the background of one of the photos the conduit for the spark plugs and in my car these are brass so I'm wondering if they went painted black for the v63. 

 

 

 

[ksparks]

much better shape that a 24 suburban i sold years back. i do like it also. 

[Guest]

I really hope this car sells to a member here so they can keep us apprised of it's progress going back together.

[C Carl]

Definitely not a V63, as it has 2 wheel brakes. And here for authenticity, is an original unrestored '24 V63 engine compartment. 

 

As to subject at hand : The project you see here is the late '27 sedan I mentioned earlier. Offered to me for $3000 in a stronger market 4-5 years ago. Most likely an easier project than the '22, in that the chassis was still intact, the complex mechanical brakes unmolested and all there in place. Engine ? Sure, the blocks have been pulled, (and we still don't know anything about the '22 engine), but the entire drive train has not been dismantled and scattered. Other advantages, some apparent, others not so much. This rock solid, rotless, rustless specimen lurked amongst quite a stash of project cars, 'teens,'20s, a bit of early'30s, that mostly flathead Ford with speed equipment galore. Early '20s Rolls- Royce far more together than most of its "cell mates", perhaps ready to go through a standard revival sequence. Late '20s RHD flathead Marmon phaeton. Marmon speedster project. Aerocar.  '13 Buick, etc. If I had been offered the car BEFORE I started work on my '27 which I had bought a couple or three years earlier, (in a stronger market yet - albeit already in decline as witness my purchase for $12k),  I would not have let it go. And yes, for me, it would have been a parts car. I do hope the new owner has saved it. It is a much more valuable, (if in fact value is still there at all), sedan than the '22. I hold restorers of 4 door sedans in the highest level of esteem. So few old car nuts give them the respect they deserve. Of course I love them very much, have for almost all of my 76 years, and I hope someone has the love, $$$$, talent and time to come collect these parts and make a car out of them.

 

The pic here is at Tad's, out East of Portland, during an early shakedown cruise with chicken dumplin's the reward for good behavior. You see it exactly precisely as acquired, save for my addition of the turn signals under the visor. 

 

If seeing this project put back on the road has any importance to the owners, and if they want to move it out before it depreciates further in this tanking market, and with respect to the brave new world we must recognize, my recommendation is to sell to someone SOON, (I seem to recall that there is some time imperative operating here), bearing in mind Matt Harwood's evaluation. I believe there are 20 some type 61s in CLC. I don't have my current directory with me, but earlier ones will serve. There is some forward and back compatibility of some few components, and this may find a buyer through Hemmings as exactly what it is. Already dismantled parts to sustain another 61, or perhaps several. Looks like kind granddad had a propensity for dismantling, and walking away. Luckily he merely beheaded the Hupp.    

 

Hey now ! If this stuff has to be moved "out long before" 6-8 weeks from several days ago, I highly recommend taking the next money someone offers. As Matt also reminded us, the longer things like this sit on the market, the less they bring. I don't think it is my binnitch to make specific recommendations, but if you have rejected any offers, or driven someone to come to his/her senses, perhaps a LOWER counter offer could flush the now bird in the bush back to hand. GR8WHITE : You done flat ran out of time ! Glad you don't have to flog the Hupp !

 

Am I off-base in any of my perceptions here.? I believe in objective reality. Any reality check needed ? Thanks,   -   Carl 

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

14 minutes ago, C Carl said:

I believe there are 20 some type 61s in CLC. I don't have my current directory with me, but earlier ones will serve. There is some forward and back compatibility of some few components, and this may find a buyer through Hemmings as exactly what it is. Already dismantled parts to sustain another 61, or perhaps several.

 

There’s not that much activity on the type 61 front, I would hazard a guess that there wouldn’t be much more than 5 running at the moment 

[OnSafari]

So where are the current values / demand sitting for veteran V8 Cadillacs. 1915 - 1918?

[hidden_hunter]

1 hour ago, OnSafari said:

So where are the current values / demand sitting for veteran V8 Cadillacs. 1915 - 1918?

 
Pretty soft but early cars seem to do a bit better, though condition is critical

 

 I had to move mine about 30 mins ago and they really are a fantastic car once they’ve been through. Pump up fuel pressure to 1lbs, step on the starter and almost instant start even after it hasn’t been run for weeks - shifts nicely and easy clutch. What is different from a lot of early cars is they actually have pretty decent visibility, compared to our 26 Buick it’s much easier to tell where all four of the corners are

[mikewest]

I don't think the owner needs anymore advise on how to sell this old car . He has said that he is just throwing all the info out there and to make a offer. He has said its his mothers car and there are  other family members involved.  Petty simply ha?? If you want the car , put your big boy pants on  and make a cash offer. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some young person that has a place to work could end up with this car?? I was young (12 and up) my father encouraged me to twist wrenches and try and repair old cars . He had a building in town that never had fewer than a dozen prewar cars in it. If I said I wasn't sure on a repair , He would say "Go for it, Its no good like it is!"  Thanks for letting me get my 2 cents worth in there.

[1912Staver]

11 hours ago, OnSafari said:

So where are the current values / demand sitting for veteran V8 Cadillacs. 1915 - 1918?

 

I would expect that all of the 2 wheel brake era cars sell more easily and for somewhat better prices if they are open cars.  Coupe's would be next and closed sedans  a definite third place. Large , heavy and complicated, sedans particularly.  I would expect a closed Cadillac to cost little more than and possibly less than a Buick touring of about the same year, condition being equal. The Cadillac suffers from high potential repair / restoration costs without 

any substantial value as a running car.  The same situation that a bunch of the higher original price class / upmarket , closed cars find themselves in these days. Very nicely made cars that are big and heavy  and have somewhat limited usability. For these reasons a quite limited market and generally low realistic selling prices.

 

Greg in Canada

[edinmass]

12 hours ago, OnSafari said:

So where are the current values / demand sitting for veteran V8 Cadillacs. 1915 - 1918?

 

Zero.....in answer to your question, Sad, but true. All the off brand year/series stuff only sells on price......and it better be nice, and running. Cool factor no longer matters, it’s all about dollar value for you ride......too much cool stuff on the market for bargain prices that is killing the early hard to deal with cars. 
 

I see rare and unusual cars that are good drivers for sale at asking prices that are shockingly cheap.........and not selling. The “good stuff“  is doing fine.............the odd duck nickel cars..........are a disaster right now. Hopefully a new generation steps in and runs them with enthusiasm.

Edited June 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Michael J. Barnes]

They are valuable to their owners; they are valuable as artefacts; just, for the moment, they are not valuable on the car-selling markets. If you want to belong to the group that appreciates the Cadillacs from 1915 till the end of the nickel-era, join here: https://groups.io/g/EarlyV8Cadillac. All are welcome, whether you own one of these cars or not. I have a 1924 V-63 touring which started life as a company car for West Kootenay Power and Light in the south-east of my province of British Columbia. Important mining country a century ago. The region made a lot of money for the American mine owners in Spokane.

[hidden_hunter]

I'm not sure if it will help with your sale or not, but I can send you a scan of the brochure which gives a bit of detail on what the car would have been like 

 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

14 hours ago, Michael J. Barnes said:

They are valuable to their owners; they are valuable as artefacts; just, for the moment, they are not valuable on the car-selling markets. If you want to belong to the group that appreciates the Cadillacs from 1915 till the end of the nickel-era, join here: https://groups.io/g/EarlyV8Cadillac. All are welcome, whether you own one of these cars or not. I have a 1924 V-63 touring which started life as a company car for West Kootenay Power and Light in the south-east of my province of British Columbia. Important mining country a century ago. The region made a lot of money for the American mine owners in Spokane.

 

Mike.....I agree they are valuable as artifacts and living history......just as much or even more than the popular stuff. Looking at machines that are few and far between are much more interesting to me than say a 1934 Packard twelve, or a 31 Ford. The group of cars we are left to collect are based on decisions of the people who were hiding them during the war.........so much great stuff was melted down.....and so much history was lost. 

[C Carl]

Very interesting to see the different tread, front, (typical steer), and a more traction tread rear. One of each carried in the dual rear spares. Very interesting, indeed, as I can't remember seeing this depicted anywhere before ! Thanks for posting,    -    Carl 

[ksparks]

i think a great project.  Difficult and a pain i am sure for the spouse to take these photos.  Key would be a engine block photo since i see engine parts hanging on the wall.  confirm the jump seats, glass for windows, curtain shades are there etc.  a very very solid project.  also would be nice to know for a potential buyer if nuts and bolts are labeled in cans and fit what part of the car.   if all loose reference bolts then more of a challenge.

Edited June 22, 2020 by kmstrade (see edit history)

[GR8WHITE]

2 hours ago, kmstrade said:

i think a great project.  Difficult and a pain i am sure for the spouse to take these photos.  Key would be a engine block photo since i see engine parts hanging on the wall.  confirm the jump seats, glass for windows, curtain shades are there etc.  a very very solid project.  also would be nice to know for a potential buyer if nuts and bolts are labeled in cans and fit what part of the car.   if all loose reference bolts then more of a challenge.

 

Mom is going to be getting engine pictures this week.

[GR8WHITE]

5 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

I'm not sure if it will help with your sale or not, but I can send you a scan of the brochure which gives a bit of detail on what the car would have been like 

 

 

 

 

 

This is awesome!  Thank you for sharing!  

[John_Mereness]

23 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Zero.....in answer to your question, Sad, but true. All the off brand year/series stuff only sells on price......and it better be nice, and running. Cool factor no longer matters, it’s all about dollar value for you ride......too much cool stuff on the market for bargain prices that is killing the early hard to deal with cars. 
 

I see rare and unusual cars that are good drivers for sale at asking prices that are shockingly cheap.........and not selling. The “good stuff“  is doing fine.............the odd duck nickel cars..........are a disaster right now. Hopefully a new generation steps in and runs them with enthusiasm.

Hate to say it, though I agree here.  1916-1925 stuff (and not the really big HP exotic stuff brought into CCCA - like Locomobiles or say 22-24 Model A Duesenbergs) have a very limited audience (they are great for just something different to use, but I do not see many people breaking the banks to get one) - they are really fun when you have a neighbor or friend in local club that makes you a deal on one and they are interesting at shows too.  All said though, 20's stuff is popping up right and left on the internet (at levels I have not seen since the late 1970's and early 1980's) and reason is because they are near the most impractical things people have bought.   I am not saying the cars are free or anyone should be taken advantage of - I am just saying there is little to no room for anything other than REASONABLE. 

 

Sidnote:  This 22 Cadillac has HUGE potential (neat car and looks solid as a rock too)

Edited June 22, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[ksparks]

My 1924 suburban had a Fisher aluminium body

[Guest]

10 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

This is a nice document h_h, thanks for sharing it. 

Can anyone here tell me the difference between the limousine and the imperial limousine shown?

Thanks, Greg

 

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, GregLaR said:

Can anyone here tell me the difference between the limousine and the imperial limousine shown?

 

Dont know about 1922, but in later years the difference was whether the raised divider glass pressed against the headliner or there was a channel in the top. 

 

Think Thorstein Veblen's theory of conspicuous consumption:

Having a channel was a "more formal" design. The car was essentially divided whether the glass was up or down. it screamed 'employee driven'. 

If there was no channel (less formal) then when the glass was down it might look like an owner driven car. 

The presence of leather or cloth front seat also denoted a level of formality and may have played into the 1922 nomenclature 

[GR8WHITE]

Finally got pics of the engine.

[edinmass]

Engine photos are also encouraging...........at least things are getting better, usually they go down hill like a submarine with a huge hole in the hull. 👍👍👍

[hidden_hunter]

The belly pan is quite a rare piece,  are the pistons not currently in the engine? (there is an end cap sitting on the top of the motor) 

 

3 hours ago, GregLaR said:

 

 

Here is the entire brochure which tells you the difference between all of the models and has pictures of the differences

 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AhZpPcMu-n3Mibciqz5PunJ8PbLkxw?e=7n4CU2

[GR8WHITE]

14 hours ago, hidden_hunter said:

The belly pan is quite a rare piece,  are the pistons not currently in the engine? (there is an end cap sitting on the top of the motor) 

 

 

Here is the entire brochure which tells you the difference between all of the models and has pictures of the differences

 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AhZpPcMu-n3Mibciqz5PunJ8PbLkxw?e=7n4CU2

 

My brother said the that the long block is intact and has not been pulled apart.  Probably from something else Gramps pulled apart 40 years ago lol.

[Guest]

Does anyone know if this Cadillac found a new home yet?

[edinmass]

I have refrained from posting the following information while the thread was active, as I didn't want to interfear with a potential sale. I have a good friend who knows this car and early Cadillac's well, and has inspected this car in the recent past. He has an opinion, which I will not share publicly. His opinion is very close to mine.........with additional details one could only have by a personal inspection. I hope the car sells and is reassembled........it's too good to be a parts car......but that is probably going to be it's fate. 

[mikewest]

ED , Unless Ive missed the posting of the price the family will sell it for , telling us HOW MUCH they will accept will help sell this car. They have tested the waters long enough  for offers.  Id be interested in it myself , but want to know how much money it is. Its a very simply concept....... but a lot of sellers cant figure it out.