Can anyone identify this early wood and metal car chassis

[wheelwright]

Picked up this older looking wood and metal chassis with wood frame, and wooden wheels. It looks heavy like a truck but has fender brackets and nice brass hub caps.I looks like an additional flat iron was added to the back spring support. Has anyone seen anything like this and a later vehicle with this type of hubcap. No names of stamps.

[1912Staver]

My guess is that the basic frame and the axles did not start life together.  I think the wood has been added to make up for a difference in width .  Even the rear crossmember looks to be roughly black smithed into place.

The frame looks like is beyond saving but the axles probably have value if you can figure out what they are from. We need better photo's !  What is the chassis sitting just in view to the front of this one ?

 

Greg in Canada

[wheelwright]

Here is the right and left sides of the chassis front axel. Right hand drive the rear axle is the same as those in 1906 and 1907 Deere Automobile. So it appears if it was pieced together it was done with pre 1907 parts. 

[wheelwright]

Here is an early 1907 Deere-Clark company diagram but yes the frames are different. 

 

The front chassis is a 1912 EMF.

Edited June 1, 2020 by wheelwright (see edit history)

[lump]

The differential is different too. The rusty one is a clamshell housing. 

[1912Staver]

The front spring hangers are reasonably early as is the rear forged frame extension style rear hangers. Possibly as early as 1907, but also possibly as new as about 1912 - 13 on some makes. I don't see anything that an exact match for the Deere - Clark in your factory illustration.

And the rear springs are completely different. They look to be full - elliptic like we were just discussing on another current thread. If you look on that thread I have posted a couple of pictures of Staver Chicago race cars that are almost exactly the same rear spring set up as what I am seeing on the Deere- Clark.

The front axle and springs may well have come from a small truck. Those rear spring hangers on the front axle assy. are a type more commonly found on trucks than cars. The center casting of the Deere - Clark rear end looks like it aluminum rather than the ferrous casting on you mystery chassis.

Still more questions than answers.

 

Greg

Edited June 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[wheelwright]

The rear chassis is a 1912 EMF, 1912staver, I thought I would post a picture.

 

[1912Staver]

Your EMF chassis rear spring arrangement is of the same style that your Deere - Clark  manual picture shows as well.  The mystery chassis seems to be a combination of parts perhaps assembled out of junkyard parts decades ago for use under something like a farm wagon.

[Craig Gillingham]

Can you tell what the track would have been? it may help narrow it down. I have a differing opinion, as I believe the chassis is original to the axles, a timber frame with an inner steel reinforcing. The way the spring hangers are positioned, as well as the two cross-shaft mounts (brakes?) are a very neat fit.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Craig Gillingham
Grammar (see edit history)

[wheelwright]

It has a 56 inch track front axle and rear axle and 95 inch wheel base. Hope that helps, you are right, very neatly put together.

[Craig Gillingham]

If it could be 56" track, 100" wheelbase, then this would match up to a 1906 Type VII Autocar, and I'm confident that's what the chassis is from. The wooden chassis and chassis fittings match near perfectly with this car. From what I can tell, they went to a steel chassis in 1907.

 

https://www.mainememory.net/artifact/24021/zoom

 

And you can zoom in on the detail to compare. The axles are off something else. If you can find an Autocar expert, they may be able to tell you something more.

[wheelwright]

Here is even a 1906 Autocar Type X and the hubs, hubcaps, and even the rear axle seem more similar than other makes I have viewed, I think you are onto something the spring mounting are similar too very heavy solid attacked to wood. What is the wheel base of a 1906 Type X or 10, but they look short coupled. Type VII is probably it.  The collection I bought the frame out of has four other Autocar engines. One of them might even be the one out of this type of chassis. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by wheelwright (see edit history)

[wheelwright]

Yes even the spring connectors are the same as an Autocar. Craig you win the prize that was very good work.

[1912Staver]

That's quite amazing. The mixed wood / steel construction had me convinced it was a later adaption.  I guess I lost sight of a basic guideline that the earlier the vehicle, the more likely occurrence of non - conventional construction.

I wonder if it is a 2 Cyl. opposed twin engine or a 4 Cyl. ?

 

Greg in Canada

[lump]

Nice work, Craig! Now perhaps this "mystery chassis" can eventually be combined with other parts, to become a restored very-early car! 

 

[wheelwright]

Yes it would be nice to put it back together. Large Autocar models are somewhat rare. It appears since this Chassis has two running board brackets it was a 5 passenger Type XII having a four cylinder up right engine as there were only Type X and XII made in 1906. I was a little throw by the article on the Autocar Type VII till I read lower in the article were they corrected themselves as a Type XII. It appears Autocar in 1905 made a Type X, Type VIII, and the XI. I am just getting to know the Ford letters A, B, C, F, N, R, S, and T, and now a new world of Roman Numbers with Autocar.

Edited June 4, 2020 by wheelwright (see edit history)

[wheelwright]

I thought I like lump’s suggestion to put the car back together the collection I bought the chassis from had an early steering column (picture enclosed) by when I looked at the ads it seemed odd that Autocar had a steering wheel in the corner. I thought that they probably went from tiller to steering wheel and they somewhat did. On the 1906 Autocar they had rubber grips spark, and throttle, without taking your hands from the wheel it looks like some modern setup.

Edited June 4, 2020 by wheelwright (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:27 AM, wheelwright said:

Yes it would be nice to put it back together. Large Autocar models are somewhat rare. It appears since this Chassis has two running board brackets it was a 5 passenger Type XII having a four cylinder up right engine as there were only Type X and XII made in 1906. I was a little throw by the article on the Autocar Type VII till I read lower in the article were they corrected themselves as a Type XII. It appears Autocar in 1905 made a Type X, Type VIII, and the XI. I am just getting to know the Ford letters A, B, C, F, N, R, S, and T, and now a new world of Roman Numbers with Autocar.

 

What direction have you decided to go with your project chassis?  I was following this with interest until it dropped off and got to thinking about it again tonight. 

[Larry Schramm]

The rear axle looks very similar to a Weston-Mott axle used by Buick and other car companies.

[Dandy Dave]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:27 AM, wheelwright said:

Yes it would be nice to put it back together. Large Autocar models are somewhat rare. It appears since this Chassis has two running board brackets it was a 5 passenger Type XII having a four cylinder up right engine as there were only Type X and XII made in 1906. I was a little throw by the article on the Autocar Type VII till I read lower in the article were they corrected themselves as a Type XII. It appears Autocar in 1905 made a Type X, Type VIII, and the XI. I am just getting to know the Ford letters A, B, C, F, N, R, S, and T, and now a new world of Roman Numbers with Autocar.

 

Say Wheelwright, Add the model K to your Ford list. Dandy Dave! 

[wheelwright]

On 6/17/2020 at 9:51 PM, W_Higgins said:

 

What direction have you decided to go with your project chassis?  I was following this with interest until it dropped off and got to thinking about it again tonight. 

I am very thankful for all the help with the identification. I didn’t want to take parts off it if I didn’t know what it was. I am restoring a 1907 Deere and I see now the 1906 Autocar is the same makers started in 1897. So it appears they are original parts for both, no problem using to finish it.

[West Peterson]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:50 PM, wheelwright said:

Here is the right and left sides of the chassis front axel. Right hand drive the rear axle is the same as those in 1906 and 1907 Deere Automobile. So it appears if it was pieced together it was done with pre 1907 parts. 

 

 

That hub cap looks like Oldsmobile

[wheelwright]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

That hub cap looks like Oldsmobile

I don’t know much about the cars of 1906 or 1907 but 1907 - Oldsmobile Model AH, 4 cylinder (pictures added) had large metal rear spring carriers on the back just like an Autocar, and those hubcaps do look similar. I wonder if Oldsmobile had a wood and metal frame and metal carriers on the front ? It appears quite a few parts might have been from parts houses.

[W_Higgins]

On 6/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, wheelwright said:

I am very thankful for all the help with the identification. I didn’t want to take parts off it if I didn’t know what it was. I am restoring a 1907 Deere and I see now the 1906 Autocar is the same makers started in 1897. So it appears they are original parts for both, no problem using to finish it.

 

 

Thanks for the update on your project.  This was of interest to me because several years ago I re-restored the Runabout shown in the black-and-white photo that you posted above and did a fair bit of studying on the company.  If you're linking up Deere-Clark and Autocar because Autocar's founder was Louis Semple Clarke, the two are entirely unrelated entities.  According to my reference material the Clark in Deere-Clark was William Clark (with no E on the end).  Two different people, two different first names, two different spellings of the last names, and over 1,000 miles between them.  It would be a shame to pull parts from this to make it into something it never was.

[wheelwright]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:03 AM, W_Higgins said:

 

Thanks for the update on your project.  This was of interest to me because several years ago I re-restored the Runabout shown in the black-and-white photo that you posted above and did a fair bit of studying on the company.  If you're linking up Deere-Clark and Autocar because Autocar's founder was Louis Semple Clarke, the two are entirely unrelated entities.  According to my reference material the Clark in Deere-Clark was William Clark (with no E on the end).  Two different people, two different first names, two different spellings of the last names, and over 1,000 miles between them.  It would be a shame to pull parts from this to make it into something it never was.

W. Higgins is the 1907 Deere Ad from Motor Age 1907 not the Autocar II in the picture ? Did Deere mislead people on their association to Autocar with this 1897 Phaeton picture which appears to be Autocar or did William E. Clark also build a Phaeton the same year as Louis Semple Clarke in 1897 that also has shaft drive ? I think the years are in question, and the distance between Moline Illinois and Ardmore, Pennsylvania.

Edited June 24, 2020 by wheelwright (see edit history)

[W_Higgins]

55 minutes ago, wheelwright said:

W. Higgins is the 1907 Deere Ad from Motor Age 1907 not the Autocar II in the picture ? Did Deere mislead people on their association to Autocar with this 1897 Phaeton picture which appears to be Autocar or did William E. Clark also build a Phaeton the same year as Louis Semple Clarke in 1897 that also has shaft drive ? I think the years are in question.

 

Where in the ad does Deere indicate that they are associated with Autocar?  If you're merely going by the photo those are two entirely different cars.  The Autocar's engine is mounted high up inside the body where you can see the crankshaft sticking out the side beneath the seat so you can insert the hand crank.  The works are barely visible below the body.   Deere indicates that their engine is hanging below in the front and can be started from the driver's seat.  The Deere ad clearly shows all the works exposed and mounted on the chassis well below the body.  The Autocar has wire spoke wheels and the Deere's are wood.  Even the bodies are different in numerous ways.  Trace the outline of each one and they are different -- Autocar is concave in the back where the Deere has a straight angle the reverse of that, the dashes are different, just about everything when you really get down to it.

 

I don't see how this is anything other than two different guys in two different far-apart locations where one went onto success and the other did not.  The story of William Clark is that he spent years trying and failing and begging for financial support to chase his dream while at the same time Louis Clarke had money and connections and did what he intended without all the failures and restarts by selling hundreds and hundreds of cars long before Deere-Clark was ever organized. 

 

Why are you trying so hard to tie these two men and two companies together?      

[rcr]

The Autocar Company of Ardmore, Pennsylvania made the first shaft drive car in November of 1901 and that car is recognized as the first shaft drive automobile produced in the United States of America and is today in the Smithsonian institution in Washington, D.C. for that reason. All prior machines produced by The Autocar Company were chain driven. This is undisputed and it is also easy to claim ten years after the fact that William Clark actually built a shaft drive "automobile" in 1897. Since we are only shown half of the text in your advertisement, perhaps your "proof" is in the other half? The 1901 Autocar type VI in your posted advertisement is a chain drive automobile.

Edited June 24, 2020 by rcr
addition (see edit history)