Lebowski

Why is there no national database in the US that keeps track of antique car sales?

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1 hour ago, Peter S said:

The liability issue is both the elephant in this room and a problem with a double edge. How can the new owner insure the car without holding a valid title? 

 

My insurance company simply wants a phone call to let them know I'm buying the car. I don't recall the exact amount of time, but I do have some time before they want all the details like VIN, etc.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

The problem is that states don't always share their registration information.  Every time I sold a car, it was up to the buyer to re-regisdter it.  If they didn't or registered it in another state, i would see the vehicle still on my list with the state of Florida.  I would tell them each year which cars I no longer owned and they were fine with that and didn't send renewals to me.  States are suposed to notifiy the prior state of registration, but they don't always do it.

I once had a guy buy a car and 10 years later call and say I never gave him a title and asked me to get a duplicate.  I asked Florida and they told me the car was registered in New Hampshire.  Then the buyer admitted that it was and told me he was selling the car and New Hampshire would not give him a duplicate because he no longer lived there.  (It was a resident only courtesy)   The power of the clerk sets the rules!

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This thread is utterly ridiculous

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Posted (edited)

Here is the California DMV VIN lookup tool. If the VIN is active in the system it will tell you how much the fees to purchase it would be, including back unpaid registration fees if any. So it may be useful if you want proof your car was sold to a California buyer, it will tell you if the VIN is active in the California DMV computer system.

 

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/wasapp/FeeCalculatorWeb/usedVehicleForm.do

 

Gives you a result like this. All I did was put in the VIN for my car, nothing else, no owners name or anything. It gives the Make, year, and transfer fees due if I were to buy it.

 

 

Screenshot (109).png

Edited by mike6024 (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I think that's good, but a good number people lose their minds when I tell them that's what we have to do. Several guys have even dropped the deal when I told them they weren't getting a blank title. They just want me to sign the title, leave everything else blank, and let them have it to do whatever they want. Um, how about no? How about I don't want to be responsible when you kill someone with your unregistered car? How about I don't want someone calling me 15 years in the future demanding that I fix a title with my name on it that subsequent owners never bothered to transfer? How about you act like an adult and actually own the car you paid to own? Waaa waaa waaa, I don't wanna pay sales tax. Too bad, we all have to live with it (I even title my personal cars in my own name instead of the dealership, and that means I'm paying sales tax as well). Man up or get out of the hobby if you can't afford to play by the rules.

 

So let me get this right.

I buy a car from Matt, I have to pay Ohio sales tax and register and title the car in Ohio?

In Oregon we don't use a sales tax, but we do have to pay a state income tax. Therefore we have already paid local taxes on my money when we earned it rather than when we spend it.

So now I pay an Ohio sales tax on money I have already paid my local taxes on. Along with Ohio registration at an address that I don't have?

Being neighbors with Washington state I can buy just about anything and the retailer has a form to fill out when I present my Oregon ID. This way Oregonians aren't being taxed twice on the same money if they make a major purchase in Washington (including vehicles). Washington dealers all do this. I would think that Ohio should as well.

How do you ever make an out of state sale?  Every out of state sale will be paying double taxes as most states charge a sales tax when they register a recently purchased car.

 

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3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I think that's good, but a good number people lose their minds when I tell them that's what we have to do. Several guys have even dropped the deal when I told them they weren't getting a blank title. They just want me to sign the title, leave everything else blank, and let them have it to do whatever they want. Um, how about no? How about I don't want to be responsible when you kill someone with your unregistered car? How about I don't want someone calling me 15 years in the future demanding that I fix a title with my name on it that subsequent owners never bothered to transfer? How about you act like an adult and actually own the car you paid to own? Waaa waaa waaa, I don't wanna pay sales tax. Too bad, we all have to live with it (I even title my personal cars in my own name instead of the dealership, and that means I'm paying sales tax as well). Man up or get out of the hobby if you can't afford to play by the rules.

 

So let me get this right.

I buy a car from Matt, I have to pay Ohio sales tax and register and title the car in Ohio?

In Oregon we don't use a sales tax, but we do have to pay a state income tax. Therefore we have already paid local taxes on our money when we earned it rather than when we spend it.

So now I pay an Ohio sales tax on money I have already paid my local taxes on. Along with Ohio registration at an address that I don't have?

Being neighbors with Washington state I can buy just about anything and the retailer has a form to fill out when I present my Oregon ID. This way Oregonians aren't being taxed twice on the same money if they make a major purchase in Washington (including vehicles). Washington dealers all do this. I would think that Ohio should as well.

How do you ever make an out of state sale?  Every out of state sale will be paying double taxes as most states charge a sales tax when they register a recently purchased car.

 

I have to add that the other way around, (Washington residents often cross the border for everyday purchases) Oregon does not get any funds from out of state buyers.

Unfortunately this is often a bone of contention when we realize that we are not collecting any sales taxes from tourists as they pass through or any "under the table" monies.

The typical honest working guy pays his state income taxes as he earns money rather than when he spends it.

DMVs here don't collect any sales taxes.

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, JACK M said:

 

So let me get this right.

I buy a car from Matt, I have to pay Ohio sales tax and register and title the car in Ohio?

In Oregon we don't use a sales tax, but we do have to pay a state income tax. Therefore we have already paid local taxes on my money when we earned it rather than when we spend it.

So now I pay an Ohio sales tax on money I have already paid my local taxes on. Along with Ohio registration at an address that I don't have?

Being neighbors with Washington state I can buy just about anything and the retailer has a form to fill out when I present my Oregon ID. This way Oregonians aren't being taxed twice on the same money if they make a major purchase in Washington (including vehicles). Washington dealers all do this. I would think that Ohio should as well.

How do you ever make an out of state sale?  Every out of state sale will be paying double taxes as most states charge a sales tax when they register a recently purchased car.

 

 

Not quite. Out of state residents do not pay Ohio sales taxes. As a dealer, the law says I have to provide you with a fresh Ohio title in your name with your out-of-state address. I can't just sign the old title and give it to you for all the reasons we've described in this thread--Ohio doesn't want other people running around with unregistered cars still in someone else's name, and neither do I. It's no big deal, you just take that Ohio title to your local DMV and turn it into a local title. It's actually a lot easier that way since the title is already official and in your name so you won't have the usual problems with out-of-state titles. A vast majority of our hassles come from out-of-state titles that have been signed incorrectly or in the wrong place or by a guy who omitted his middle initial or was signed 45 years ago by a dead man, and the DMV rejects it. This eliminates all of that.

 

We (or you) do not register the car in Ohio, but we do provide a 45-day temporary tag so you can drive the car immediately upon arrival wherever you live. Ohio temporary tags are valid in all 50 states.


I've had conversations very much like this in the past and I don't quite understand why it makes people so angry and confused:

Me: We'll also deliver a fresh, clean Ohio title already in your name.

Buyer: But I don't live in Ohio. I live in Tennessee.

Me: It will have your current Tennessee address on it. You will take it to your local DMV and they will give you a Tennessee title. It really is easier that way.

Buyer: Then I have to get Ohio license plates on my car. I live in Tennessee. I don't have an Ohio address. Why would I want Ohio license plates? I need Tennessee plates.

Me: You don't register it in Ohio. The title will have your Tennessee address on it. Go to the Tennessee DMV and they will give you a Tennessee title and Tennessee license plates.

Buyer: Why can't you just give me a Tennessee title and license plates?

Me: We can only issue Ohio titles and we can't issue license plates. That's a separate step. You can take this title and turn it into a Tennessee title at your local DMV.

Buyer: But I don't live in Ohio. I live in Tennessee.

Me: Sigh.

 

It would be really nice to have a national title with a uniform set of rules and a consistent form and procedure. Doing it 50 different ways is a real pain in the ass.

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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OK, I get it now.

What is the cost of the Ohio title transfer?

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3 minutes ago, JACK M said:

OK, I get it now.

What is the cost of the Ohio title transfer?

 

The actual title transfer fee varies from $16 to more than $60 depending on the circumstances.

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OK, now we just have to hammer out a deal...

Oh darn, you sold my Vette...;)

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The way Ohio does that makes sense. If the sale takes place in Ohio the title transfer should happen there. And no sales tax till you get it back to your home state.

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4 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

The way Ohio does that makes sense. If the sale takes place in Ohio the title transfer should happen there. And no sales tax till you get it back to your home state.

 

It is a good idea, I misunderstood when Matt said "Waaa waaa waaa. I don't want to pay taxes"…..

My bad.

 

Question then, How does that work with a private sale? In Ohio, is the seller required to do that title transfer?

I never sell a car without sending the info card that is attached to the Oregon registration. (maybe its attached to the title),  but I always send it in with the buyers info.

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Just now, JACK M said:

 

It is a good idea, I misunderstood when Matt said "Waaa waaa waaa. I don't want to pay taxes"…..

My bad.

 

Question then, How does that work with a private sale? In Ohio, is the seller required to do that title transfer?

I never sell a car without sending the info card that is attached to the Oregon registration. (maybe its attached to the title),  but I always send it in with the buyers info.

 

I said that about sales taxes because almost every buyer wants me to falsify the documents to say they paid $25 for the car instead of $60,000 so they can dodge their taxes. Or just give them a blank title so they can lie and thereby implicate me in their crime. Anyone remember how they finally brought down Al Capone? Yeah, I'm not risking my business to help someone commit tax fraud.

 

Private sellers can still do whatever they want. They aren't licensed by the state so they simply hand over a title with their signature on it. Ohio titles need to be notarized, so that needs to be done before it goes to the buyer or else he's going to have a hell of a time transferring it. A lot of guys will let it go blank, but the notary is supposed to make sure everything (including price) is filled out before they'll notarize. They don't always do that, however.

 

States are increasingly contacting previous owners to ask about the sales price and if the numbers don't jibe, people get in trouble. There are still plenty of morons who will buy a car for tens of thousands of dollars and try to tell the DMV they paid $50 for it--the DMV isn't falling for it and I've heard of at least one local guy being implicated in fraud charges because he and the buyer pre-arranged to report a lower price on the sale which is technically conspiracy to commit tax fraud, a fairly substantial crime. The DMV has control over the dealers so they exercise it by making us do the title transfer, but private sellers are still largely unregulated. There are checks being done, the various states' computers now talk to each other, so it's getting risky to skirt the rules.

 

 

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Tax is 9.5% for me. A 10% "Buyer's Premium" essentially.

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3 hours ago, mike6024 said:

This thread is utterly ridiculous

 

Why would you feel the need to make this stupid comment and then immediately follow it up with a valid comment on the California VIN lookup tool? A lot of other guys have left intelligent comments here so they obviously don't think it's an "utterly ridiculous" thread.... :wacko:

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You sold a car and have no clue as to the buyer's name or address. Then you continue to pay registration for a vehicle you do not have any longer. Then you want the government to keep track of vehicles across state lines to help you out. As if that is a responsibility of the Federal Government. For your information the states have a right to operate independently and enact their own laws. People who want to do business across state lines need to deal with it and figure it out. What does the Constitution say about the responsibility of the Federal Government? Does it say keep track of all vehicles, VINs, and owners nationwide?

 

The fact is you can look up VIN's of cars registered in California. Just the VIN alone can get you the license plate number, the year, make, and any back registration due, but not the owner's name or address. This may be useful to some people. For purposes of your situation you can ignore it.

 

 

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Does the auto insurance industry keep a data base of VINs that your insurance agent can access?

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Just put the car up on Ebay and have a shill buy it. The guy will show up so fast your head will spin.

 

Worked for me.

 

Remember the old car sales rule. No deal is completed until delivery is taken. You only have deposits until that point.

 

Bernie

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Agree think most collector policy insurers do not ask if titled or licensed, just if it is in a locked garage. Believe it is possible to insure a car you do not have.

 

That said, any time I buy or sell a car I have a pair of Florida BOS forms and we each keep one.  All the DMV cares about is that both the BOS and the title (yes I know there is a BOS form on the back of the title, I use a separate form and they do not care) are properly filled out and signed. For that matter I have a  title for a "parts" car that is not licensed or registered (but I know within about 50 feet of where it is). Frankly the reason I keep a copy of everything is to show a transfer of liability. I am concerned about things like that.

www.flhsmv.gov/pdf/forms/82050.pdf

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The question of whether you can insure a car you don't own is actually pretty complex. Basically to insure a car that is not in your name is that you must show an insurable interest in the car. If the buyer represents a car as his own that he doesn't hold title to that seems like it could open a whole can of worms in the event of a claim.

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i remember when I bought my Volare from a private seller in Cincinnati in 2007 we went to the local DMV office and I purchased a Drive-away plate for a modest sum. I took the sellers title with  me signed and filled out and went to the IL. DMV and changed ti over and ordered plates no issues. IL uses a sliding scale for private auto purchases and after about 25 years or so it is a flat $25 tax.  I kept the Ohio plates on until the IL ones arrived and away I went.  The only issue I ran into was since IL did not have the drivers Social Security number on the drivers license and I never thought to have mine with me the man at the DMV did a magic trick and made the seller responsible for my plate purchase in some manner.

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To answer the question, there are two primary reasons.
First, privacy. Do you want to be the target of theft because everyone knows you have a rare car with valuable and easy to rob parts off of? Or the constant pestering to sell the car? Or worry about the ones we leave behind being pestered when someone sees our names in the obituaries? Data can be used for more bad things than good IMO.

Second, Most states aren't as stupid as KY it sounds... Here in PA you just stop paying for the tag and problem is solved. I have cars I've never registered, and some I've let lapse. I've sold cars that were registered and never filled out any forms other than signing the title. Down in Ga they won't even give a title for a car over 25 years old. When I've bought cars from other states and brought into PA I just needed them to sign a title and get a VIN rubbing and never had issue getting title. At most it might be good to get the signature motorized, but I never had it asked of me, though it has been awhile.

That doesn't really solve your problem, but those are the reasons that come to mind.

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Can say it is possible to insure a car sitting in a Florida garage that has an Italian title, Japanese license, & in someone else's (serving military overseas) name. Just wanted pictures. May help if you have had a policy since the last century.

 

Irearpass.jpg

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