Interesting ?Roadster next to 1919 Hudson

[Gunsmoke]

A friend has recently completed restoring this very 1919 Hudson Touring car, shown circa 1930 next to the Inn then owned and operated by the Hudson's owner, who used the car for transporting patrons back and forth from the train depot. We are curious in the identity of the 10 year later Roadster.  Appears to be a marque brand, wire wheels and a boattail rear, with sidemounts and what appears to be a RS step plate at lead edge of rear fender. Windshield posts are straight up, sugggesting 1930 or earlier. The family were well to do for the time, so anythings possible.

 

[Grandpa]

Another view.

 

[dustycrusty]

Oh boy, that photograph is JUST beyond the point of detailed resolution, and seeing as how nobody else has taken the bait,  here's my GUESS:

 

Based mostly on that high-riding taillight, I think it is a late 1920's Packard. I also believe the apparent "boat tail" is an artifact of the poor resolution and is merely an interplay of reflections and shadow between the rear inner fender and the curvature of the body. The rear step plate is usually mounted to the trailing side of the rear fender (in most of the cars so equipped that I've seen) but there are examples with it mounted on the forward-most side as well. Not being an expert on Packard  podiataric  platform placement  policy, I dont know what factors determined which side of the rear fender got drilled.

 

As near as my interpretation of the image can tell, the wheelbase seems to fit for a Packard roadster as well as the low profile of the body in relation to the crown of the fenders, the sweep of the front fender to the running board, and I think I can almost see the gap in the body for the little "golf bag" door just above the rumble seat step?

 

Or maybe its a LaSalle/ Cadillac.....

 

 

[Grandpa]

The wheels & step plate location on the unknown car don't match a Packard.  The body of the unknown car appears to be a sort of speedster design, sometimes referred to as a turtle back design.

[Gunsmoke]

The manner in which the rear tub slopes downward and just barely matches height of rear fender is unique, and I agree, back appears to be a unique turtle back or bob tail style, seeming to have a concave end with exposure of inner sides of fenders. The windshield post appear vertical, and I also note the side of the hood seems to rise at least 2" or so above spare, suggesting a big car, LaSalle, Lincoln etc. Step plate in front as shown by dusty's 3rd photo looks about right. There were so many marque makes in the 28/29 period (prior to the 1929 crash), could be a custom roadster from 2 dozens different makers. Since the owner at the time was a Hudson guy, any Hudsons like this? Keizer31, I'm waiting?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Grandpa]

Pictured is Tom Mix in his Duesenberg Model A turtle back roadster.  The design of the car's body is similar, but not identical to the unknown car.  The unknown car is clearly not a Duesenberg Model A and also a few years newer.  I believe the body for the Tom Mix Duesenberg Model A was made in Los Angeles.

 

[edinmass]

Don Lee designed car is my guess.........something like a Cunningham or Loco. It is Hollywood after all.

 

Large hubcaps May be the key to the chassis that is very early.

Edited May 22, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

edinmass said " Don Lee designed car is my guess.........something like a Cunningham or Loco. It is Hollywood after all." . Were you referring to original post? If so, location is not Hollywood. Annaolis Royal, Nova Scotia, founded in 1604. Spent a couple hours yesterday looking at hundreds of Roadster images 1926-1931, nothing close. Packard, Franklin and a few other cars had some similar features, especially the high front hood. Also looked at some  British makes, but nothing similar. Found an Isotta F with a somewhat similar rear treatment. I suppose car could be European, they were more known for unusual 1 off body treatments. 

 

[Grandpa]

Many of the features of the unknown car match a 1929 Stutz Model M.  Note that the unknown car appears to have parking lights in the same location as the Model M.  The Model M pictured does not have the same body, but otherwise seems to be a good match to the unknown car.  My guess is that the unknown car is a Stutz Model M with a custom body or a limited production of a factory offered body.

 

[Gunsmoke]

I agree Grandpa, Stutz was one of the cars I looked at thatb seemed to have the right proportions, high hood line, etc. But not a convertible like you show, the roadster with lower doors etc. It would be interesting to know a Stutz made it this far East back 90 yrs ago. Still waiting to hear from K31?

[edinmass]

Maybe a custom Blackhawk? I’m fairly familiar with Stutz, looks small to be an M to me. Maybe a Challenger Eight? For some reason I thought this car was owned by Tom Mix.........that’s why I said Don Lee. Could be a back alley shop modification, but the rest of the car doesn’t look as unique as the back end. That’s what makes this hobby and blurry photos so much fun......we will probably never know. As far as Stutz, they had so many sporty catalog customs, why would anyone modify one?

[AHa]

Bently made a car with a back end similar to this. It can be seen in the race scene of Downton Abbey.

[dustycrusty]

PAREIDOLIA       par·ei·do·lia | \ ˌper-ˌī-ˈdō-lē-ə  , -ˈdōl-yə \

Definition of pareidolia

 

 

: the tendency to perceive a specific, often meaningful image in a random or ambiguous visual patternThe scientific explanation for some people is pareidolia, or the human ability to see shapes or make pictures out of randomness. Think of the Rorschach inkblot test.

Also--The tendency for humans to see patterns or shapes that may or may not exist after staring repeatedly at grainy  old car photographs, trying to discern identifying  coachwork details or features.............

 

 

 

1929 Dupont

[dustycrusty]

is this.....

          this?

........from this?? 

 1929 DuPont

Edited May 23, 2020 by dustycrusty (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

dustycrusty wrote earlier  "Based mostly on that high-riding taillight, I think it is a late 1920's Packard......  the low profile of the body in relation to the crown of the fenders, the sweep of the front fender to the running board, and I think I can almost see the gap in the body for the little "golf bag" door just above the rumble seat step?". I spent a few minutes carefully gauging the spacing of the wheels, using both the exposed side, and the shadows of the opposite wheels/tires. Assuming the tires have an OD of about 30", (my Chrysler CD8's 550x18" have that), and adjusting for perspective, wheelbase is about 135". 1930 Packard 733 had 134.5" WB.

 

Image appears to have 2 bar rear bumper with a small medallion about 18" from each end, similar to Packard and many others. There does appear to be a bright item at center of bumper affixed to top bar? The stop/tail light appears more oval or horizontal, not round, and on a post such that center of light is about 9" above top of bumper, providing room for a 6/7" high license plate. It appears there might be a fuel filler neck and chrome cap on passenger side of gas tank apron, unusual, perhaps modified by owner? The folding top appears substantial, suggesting this is a convertible rather than a Roadster. This would also make sense considering the location, a colder climate with frequent rainy weather. However, the low profile of the passenger side door suggests roadster. Note there is a chrome cowl band about 12" in front of windshield and a very high hood, which appears may have horizontal louvers? Appears dash may have something bright on bottom on passenger side. As for the larger hubcaps, not knowing the age of the car or photo, it is possible car could be late 20's with early 30's wheels. Windshield stanchions appear vertical and to have a trim piece on top edge, and bottom of windshield in a flat casting (like a 1930 Oldsmobile). Many Roadsters of this time had canted windshields. Finally downslope of rear tub and drop off before end of fenders is not a common design idiom. Lots to go on, but what is it. 1928/29 era "Marmon"?    

Edited May 23, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[keiser31]

The rumble seat step that is forward of the rear fender is a BIG clue. How many cars had those located there?

[dustycrusty]

1 hour ago, keiser31 said:

The rumble seat step that is forward of the rear fender is a BIG clue. How many cars had those located there?

 

 

Rolls Royce most certainly, Packard occasionally (at least one), surely there were others.........

[Gunsmoke]

I've seen the front mounted RS step plates on Marmon, Stutz, and some others. So it's a clue, the estimated 135" wheelbase should also narrow the field. Overall details look more likely American make to me. Edited to include pics of 1928 Franklin Roadster and a Franklin taillight, and a 1927 Marmon with step plate. The body lines of the Franklin are very similar to OP. Also the Franklin 12-B has veetical windshield with flat bottom, not same profile as cowl. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[Grandpa]

This circa 1927 low resolution image, from a Franklin brochure, shows that they offered a similar body design a few years before the unknown car.

 

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks everyone for your efforts to ID the old Roadster. I'm going with late 20's Franklin like the red one above, based on all the evident cues, step plate, fender profiles, taillight shape and on stanchion, high hood line, cowl band, windshield characteristics, large hubcaps/wire wheels, wheelbase, door shape, etc. As for the "bobbed" rear-end,  there are many possible explanations but those would apply to any other cars as well. While I doubt there were many Franklins in Nova Scotia around 1929/30, the location was a popular tourist area, not far from the Yarmouth/Portland Me. ferry, so car could have been from USA. Cheers, not often we stump K31.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)