1936 Chrysler Airstream C-8 Convertible Restoration

[VW4X4]

3 hours ago, Professor said:

Someone left a comment asking for the version of the video with varying engine load.  Well… here you go.  LOL:

 

 

 

Joe

Now this it interesting.  IF it slows with engine vacuum, what is the vacuum pump doing?

[Professor]

Hi Eric,

 

( have not installed the vacuum pump yet.  Maybe tomorrow.  I will take another video with the pump installed to see how much of a difference it makes.

 

Joe

[Professor]

 All,

 

I was wondering if anyone might have an original guide rod shown in the attached image as item 76212.  I need the dimensions of the guide rod so that I can duplicate it.  I do not have the correct duckbill wiper arm, but I do have the non duckbill arm that I may be able to modify.  The wiper blade assembly shown as item P-75600-7”, but I finally found the part that slides on to the wiper blade that the guide rod slides into.  I could probably guess the dimensions of the guide rod from the image, but if someone has one that can be measured, it would be a great help to me.

 

I will keep my eyes out for the duckbill wiper arm, but I think I can get close to having my wipers be correct.  Without the guide rod, my wiper blades do not travel correctly across the windshield.  I am fairly confident that the correct wiper arms and guide rods were convertible specific.

 

One small update.  The NiCop metal vacuum tubes and fittings arrived today so I will be able to install my fuel/vacuum pump and plumb up the proper vacuum lines, including the incredibly battered vacuum line that runs to the distributor.

 

Thanks so much for any help that anyone can offer.

 

Joe

 

 

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, Professor said:

 All,

 

I was wondering if anyone might have an original guide rod shown in the attached image as item 76212.  I need the dimensions of the guide rod so that I can duplicate it.  I do not have the correct duckbill wiper arm, but I do have the non duckbill arm that I may be able to modify.  The wiper blade assembly shown as item P-75600-7”, but I finally found the part that slides on to the wiper blade that the guide rod slides into.  I could probably guess the dimensions of the guide rod from the image, but if someone has one that can be measured, it would be a great help to me.

 

I will keep my eyes out for the duckbill wiper arm, but I think I can get close to having my wipers be correct.  Without the guide rod, my wiper blades do not travel correctly across the windshield.  I am fairly confident that the correct wiper arms and guide rods were convertible specific.

 

One small update.  The NiCop metal vacuum tubes and fittings arrived today so I will be able to install my fuel/vacuum pump and plumb up the proper vacuum lines, including the incredibly battered vacuum line that runs to the distributor.

 

Thanks so much for any help that anyone can offer.

 

Joe

 

 

I believe you are correct in that only the open cars had that wiper arm slider tube (convertibles and convertible sedans).

[VW4X4]

15 hours ago, keiser31 said:

I believe you are correct in that only the open cars had that wiper arm slider tube (convertibles and convertible sedans).

I'll second this.  None of my cars have the guide rod, and I've never seen this, on any C7, or C8, for that matter.  I'm sure it has something to do with the flat window, VS split window.  Also complicating the matter is that most flat one piece windshields, on Chrysler products like the Dodge and Plymouth, had the wipers mounted above the windshield.  

 

I'm fairly sure this info. as to why and how is going to be lost technology  just like the head lights...

ERIC

[F&J]

4 hours ago, VW4X4 said:

I'm sure it has something to do with the flat window, VS split window. 

No, it is needed on cars with very short windshields.  Without the dual linkage, the blade will not be able to sweep the entire vision area.  The dual arm linkage constantly changes the angle of the blade compared to the angle of the main arm as it moves across the W/S. 

 

That stainless "wire rod" slides "in and out" inside that special wiper blade attachment as the wiper sweeps from side to side, just like a trombone slide. Simple idea, but very fascinating if you get to watch one work.

 

Semi modern/modern cars have similar "dual arm functioning" so that the wipers can sit level at their lowest point, and also to not hit the driver side windshield post.

 

my 34 Lasalle conv also uses the 2nd rod, because the W/S glass is only 6" tall at center. The 34 LaS closed cars don't have it.

[Professor]

June 19th Update:

 

I finished installing the dual action factory vacuum/fuel pump and new vacuum lines, and I rebuilt the chassis to fuel pump fuel line.  After completing the install, I took a video of the performance of the wipers with the dual action pump which can be compared with the video of the wipers on direct vacuum.

It seems to me that with the dual action pump, the windshield wipers are slower at full vacuum than before, and faster under full load than before.  This said, the performance under full load is not as good as I would have expected.  I need to push a post to the Chrysler Airflow folks since I think the dual action pump was more frequently used on the Airflow compared to the Airstream.

 

Here is the video of the vacuum wipers with the dual action fuel pump installed:

 

 

And here are some images from today’s install:

 

 

 

[Bloo]

I probably wouldn't use the word "performance" in any conversation about vacuum wipers, especially combined with the phrase "full load".   What a vacuum pump does is make it so you don't have to let off the gas to get a wipe where there's any sort of a small hill, maybe, if the wiper motor is in good shape. Yours work better than most others.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Professor]

I am just pleased that the factory setup is working again.  I wish it worked better at wide open throttle (WOT), but the truth is, I am unlikely to be in conditions where I really depend on the vacuum wipers.  I use rain-X on my windshield and I do not even really need wipers when it rains.  I want everything to work as it did when it rolled off the factory floor… the really fun part for me is getting the car there.  On the last car I restored (a Corvair Spyder Convertible), I was hunting for factory bolts and nuts at the end.  LOL.  There is something wrong with me.

 

Joe

 

7 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I probably wouldn't use the word "performance" in any conversation about vacuum wipers, especially combined with the phrase "full load". What a vacuum pump does is make it so you don't have to let off the gas to get a wipe where there's any sort of a small hill, maybe, if the wiper motor is in good shape.

 

[VW4X4]

joe,

     I'm thinking that maybe the wipers would be better off connected directly to the vacuum pump, and not to the manifold at all.

Another thought I had was that maybe adding a vacuum tank with a check valve would help.  Just food for thought.

ERIC

[Professor]

Hi Eric,

 

The vacuum pump is fed directly to the intake manifold on one side and the other side goes directly to the windshield wipers.  The idea is that when manifold vacuum is low, the vacuum pump has a longer stroke since the vacuum diaphragm has more more travel.  When manifold vacuum is high, the vacuum pulls the vacuum pump diaphragm down, decreasing the vacuum pump stroke and allowing the manifold vacuum to pass directly through to the wipers.  I can tell that the vacuum pump is buffering the wipers since they run a bit slower now under full vacuum.

 

Now on to the next fix.  Maybe tie rod ends?  LOL.  So much to do.

 

Joe

 

On 6/20/2022 at 12:08 AM, VW4X4 said:

joe,

     I'm thinking that maybe the wipers would be better off connected directly to the vacuum pump, and not to the manifold at all.

Another thought I had was that maybe adding a vacuum tank with a check valve would help.  Just food for thought.

ERIC

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Professor (see edit history)

[SuperJonas]

Joe,

 

   I have taken some pictures of the fuel pump shield as it's installed on my '35 CZ.  I also have attached a bit of a primitive sketch on the dimensions.  I would hazard that the shield is made from 16-gauge or at most 14-gauge steel; it's not easily bendable at all.  The key also is the 3 studs which protrude up from the pump to mount the shield (I recall the nuts on mine are 5/16) and the cutout to facilitate the pump's vacuum chamber protruding through.  In the succeeding posts, I will also attach some additional pictures I took the other day of the car.  I tried to take as many pictures of the exhaust routing as possible, lying underneath the car.  While the exhaust pipes/muffler themselves were replaced with a Waldron's system some years back, the aluminized pipes still look great and are routed exactly as the old ones were.  The rear diffuser is purported to be original, so I left it in place, looks good as it is.  The remaining pictures are of the interior gauges (I know the '36s are different, just thought I'd share here), the headlights (I tried to show the cork gasket in place on the glass lenses) and a couple of the engine in both sides of the cowling - looks quite similar to yours with a few deviations.  I have thought long and hard about taking the headlight lenses off and re-silvering the reflectors but to date, I haven't done so yet.  You should also be able to see my heater hose routing and then my heater inside - it's a simple 2 speed job which kicks the heat to the point I rarely use it and have shut off the T valve.  I hope these are of some benefit or just as a reference or fun to view.  I love the car and take it out as much as possible.  I watched and rewatched your wiper videos...not some much for the wipers but to hear the 8 run...sounds like mine practically to a tee, except your OD keeps the revs down after 3rd and higher top speed no doubt - mine likes 50-55 in 3rd at the most.  My wife calls it the 'school bus' as to her that's what the 1 - 2 upshift sounds like...oh well.  Best of luck on your continued journey!

 

Greg

[SuperJonas]

[SuperJonas]

[SuperJonas]

[Professor]

Thanks so much Greg @SuperJonas, these images are invaluable since your CZ appears to be relatively unmolested compared to my C8.  I am quite surprised at the number of small differences; you have a foot starter switch and I have a dash button, your exhaust and intake manifolds are different (and the Sisson choke), and it appears that your rear axle is different than mine (maybe Hypoid vs. non Hypoid gears?).   I am downloading and saving the images now to use as a reference later.  I really appreciate the images and sketch of the fuel pump shield.  I have the standoffs on my pump, but the shield was long ago discarded.  Other than the stamped ridges, I can recreate a functional shield that is "factory-ish" for now while I keep a look out on eBay.  Ever since I switched to non-ethanol fuel, I do not get vapor lock any more (and my fuel mileage sits at 14.xxx mpg now).

 

Thanks again for your time.  This is a huge help Greg!

[Professor]

All,

 

Here in North Carolina where I live, the ethanol free fuel only comes in 93 octane, suggesting that it may be a good idea for me to advance my timing a bit to gain some efficiency and take advantage of the slower burn (also to help ensure I do not burn my exhaust valves by having a burn occurring while the exhaust valves are unseated).  I advanced my timing from TDC to five degrees BTDC and went for a 70 mph freeway run where I pushed the accelerator to the floor and accelerated with no pinging whatsoever.  Based on this, I suspect I can safely advance my timing even further, test for pinging, and then rinse and repeat until I get pinging and then back off the timing a bit.

 

Question: Is there any concern regarding advancing the timing to say... 10 degrees or even more on the Chrysler L-Head if there is no pinging?  Right now my fuel economy is steady around 14, but I might be able to squeeze out a bit more through timing.

 

By the way, my spark plugs and exhaust pipe suggest that I am running a bit rich, which should help if I advance the timing a bit.

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks so much!  

 

Joe

[Piaras]

Advance until it pings might be difficult as your compression is not that high and then you can run into hard starting as the spark sets off the fuel sooner while the piston is still coming up. Should perhaps look into the mechanical advance system. Can look at a different vacuum advance unit, that pulls a few more degrees and/or going to softer springs and/or extending the slots on the fly weights for the mechanical advance.
As for the thought and possible myth of slower burn with 91-93, I have tried that experiment and found no validity to the claim. Just my observation as my testing was not scientific in any sense of the word!
Engine Masters did a real test and the only difference came about with the use of E85. The timing differences between 87, 91, and 93 was basically zero, while E85 is the poor but smart man’s race fuel. No real power difference until E85 was used. Unfortunately their test was done on a modern injected engine. Richard Holdener did the same and has posted a video on YouTube detailing his test.
I try to avoid oxygenated fuels as the fuel system and it’s parts are not made for it. I have seen too many photos of the crystals left in the fuel bowls etc and the rebuilding of the fuel system at times great expense to doubt the mind who thinks this stuff is good. 
Pierre

[Piaras]

Joe

Here is a YouTube video on the steps to make a sheet metal battery tray. It shows you all the steps and more, but enough to make the heat shield with the stiffening ribs as well.

 

Pierre

[Professor]

Thanks Pierre… heading off to watch it now!

[Professor]

I had to laugh… all that work, only to find out that he could have purchased one for $18.  Still, the method to make the carburetor shield looks to be relatively easy.  I need to get some 3/8 steel to use to shape the strengthening ribs.  Thanks so much for posting this Pierre.

 

Joe

[Piaras]

You might be able to use some hardwood as a buck as I doubt you are going to use thick sheet steel.

Pierre

[Professor]

Hi All,

 

By way of a quick update, I am driving the heck out of the Chrysler.  I am having some fun before I move on to the next part of my restoration; scrubbing the undercarriage and then dropping the overdrive transmission to go through it.  I am getting a small “tink” when I shift gears as the slack goes out of the driveline.  I checked the u-joints and they are fine.  There is some slack in either the transmission or the rear axle that I need to find and eliminate.  This will bring the car down for awhile (maybe a long while, depending on the issues I find) so I want to drive the car more to build up my energy for the next repair.  It probably seems a bit odd, but driving the car recharges my battery for the next phase.  I am motivated by using the Chrysler and interacting with the people who see it.

 

Yesterday I drove into a local supermarket in the Chrysler and as I got out, I heard someone say “hey”.  I looked around and did not see anyone.  I started to leave the car to go into the supermarket and I heard someone say “hey” again and toot their horn.  I see a car with two elderly ladies in it.  One in her 60s and one in her 80s.  I walk over to the passenger window and the 80-ish year old woman tells me that she wants my car.  I laugh and ask her if she can drive a manual transmission.  She points to the automatic shifter on her daughter’s (I am guessing) car and says “is it like this one?”.  I say no, you have to push in a clutch pedal and shift manually.  She says “well… I think you need to keep your car then”, and she laughed.  The smiles I saw on her and her daughter’s face were worth way more than any of the pain and expense I have had putting this car back on the road.

 

I walk into the store and think to myself “Joe, you should have asked her if she wanted a ride”.  I left my cart in the shopping aisle and walked back out, but they had left already.

 

I shop and as I exit the store, there is an elderly gentleman with a cane looking in my driver’s side window.  I walk up and tell him that he can open the door if he wants.  He carefully opens the door and with a look of amazement on his face, he asks what kind of car this is.  I tell him and he says “it sure is a beauty”. I open the rumble seat and show him inside the rumble seat area and we talk briefly about the car.  He asks about the 1936 North Carolina license plates I am using and I explain that I carry a “real” plate in the car, and that I have to show the real plate to an officer if they pull me over.  He says “they won’t pull you over in this car”.  I smile, he smiles a broad smile with more than a few teeth missing.  I start the car and he stands off to the side to hear it run.  As I back out and pull away, I see him looking after me with the biggest smile I have ever seen.  Like a child at Disneyland or Christmas.

 

This, my friends, is what makes owning and driving a vintage car special to me.  I can make people smile at a time when smiles can be hard to come by.

 

Joe

[Piaras]

I get the same when we park somewhere as well.

 

[VW4X4]

Its the same attention and status, that famous people get when they are out in public, but there is a real difference.  Most people who own antique car must have a lot of knowledge and skills, to keep them running.     Most of the famous sports players, and movie stars, are of no value to society.  

[rodneybeauchamp]

Hey Joe,

great posts of a very nice car. Glad you didn’t pull the motor over the valve issue and more importantly didn’t swap out the guides. 
 

I was surprised that no one on the forum suggested knurling the guides, a process that forms a type of internal thread inside the guide. By deforming the inside metal inside it reduces the internal diameter which then needs to be reamed back to size to allow the valves to fit. The thread also supplies a place for oil to sit, providing lubrication.This was a reconditioning process used in the day and one I used on a ‘40 Pontiac side valve six with similar clearance issues. It can also be done with the engine in the car.

 

In that motor the valves were also burnt and we could only find one new one (before the internet) so we welded back each valve edge and reground the angles. All worked perfectly.

 

And one last opinion, I really do like the light green colour that gives it a playful lightness to the body style. I understand your desire for authenticity in black, but black cars are sooooooo much work as they always need to be clean, clean, clean.

 

The other concern is that black shows every crease, ripple, dent and imperfection in the bodywork.

 

Look forward to the next instalment.

 

Just my two bobs worth and previous owner of two black Buicks.

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀

[Professor]

Hi All,

 

By way of a quick update, I have been driving the heck out of the Chrysler.  After all the work I did this spring and part of summer, I need some driving to recharge my batteries.  Since the rebuild of the top end, I have driven 974 miles, and the engine is running amazingly well.  My fuel economy on non-ethanol gas averages 14mpg (if you can call 14mpg fuel economy).  One morning when I was driving to work, I hit a flash rain storm that came out of nowhere, and I actually had a chance to test my new wipers.  They performed flawlessly.  Sometimes simple things that work on a restoration provide happiness.

 

Since all I have been doing is driving, let me offer up a couple of images I took yesterday as I was coming up my driveway around dusk.

 

By the way, I do not understand the logic behind how this forum seemingly randomly decides to rotate images.  Every image I uploaded was oriented properly, yet even in the exact same orientation (portrait or landscape), some images are rotated and others are not.  I apologize in advance.

 

Joe

 

 

[Porsche 68]

Professor all the work you have done on your car has really paid off it’s beautiful Work on my 34 dodge coupe is coming along all lights now work brakes work been just cleaning things while waiting for parts. John

[Randiego]

Joe, 

 

Your "benefactor" and friend who bequeathed the auto to you is smiling down from Heaven at your marvelous transformation from a sitting hulk to a road worthy machine.  Kudos to you and your perserverence to bring this Chrysler back to it's proper running condition.  And run it does ! !  It sounds great. 

 

It looks so amazing to see it driving up your drive with all the tree canopys framing the car.  Those pics could very easily have been as this car was new.  Great work Joe.  We look forward to the next post.  

[Professor]

@Porsche 68 John,

 

I look at your car and I see the same journey for you that I followed.  Honestly, I look at the images of your car as it sits and I am excited for the work that you will be doing, how you will feel as you bring it back to life, and how it will look each step of the way.  Please let me know if you have any questions as you move forward.  By the way, I would highly recommend you place an order to Rhode Island Wiring to replace all of your harnesses.  Rhode Island Wiring has a bit of a lead time, but the product is amazing.

 

Joe

[Professor]

All,

 

I am trying to optimize timing given that I run 95 octane non-ethanol fuel.  I have been running at 5 degrees before top dead center since I rebuilt the top end, and it runs extremely well with no pinging while flooring it at 70mph.  I am routinely getting 13-14mpg now.

 

Yesterday, I adjusted the timing to 7 degrees before top dead center, and am having no issues at all.  Starting is even easier now than it was at 5 degrees before top dead center.  I don’t know about fuel economy yet.

 

So… with all that said, how far can I safely push the timing?  There is some belief that you can push it until you get pinging under full load with a hot engine, and then back it off.  At some point, fuel ignition is going to occur too far away from top dead center, and I could possibly face damage.  Does this occur at 10 BTC?  15 BTC?   Sans an answer, I will tinker with it in 1 degree increments and test for pinging and fuel economy.  A decrease in fuel economy and/or pinging will cause me to back off the timing.

 

Thanks so much in advance.  I have searched and cannot find a reliable “rule of thumb” for flathead 8 cylinder engines.

 

Joe

[Piaras]

What fuel are you using that has 95 Octane? Can you guarantee that you will find that fuel away from home? I would set my timing to what fuel is regularly available in my area.
 

Every engine is different so it will be somewhat difficult to suggest what the optimum setting to be. Yes the rule of thumb was to advance until it pings and then back off 2 degrees. That tends to be the best power setting. What is the vacuum at idle?

[Bloo]

There is no rule of thumb other than the one laid out by @Piaras. Limits are 1). Pinging (less likely on today's fuel as the octane is much higher). 2). Hard starting, chugging, slow cranking,  caused by the engine "kicking back" at the starter at cranking speed. Don't let this persist. It can break things. 3). Roughness due to over-advance either at cruise (vacuum advance all in plus some centrifugal) or under full power (only centrifugal advance). 4). Idle speed too fast for good shifting due to too much static advance.

 

Once one of these 4 stops you, that is as optimum as it gets without changing the advance curve (vacuum and/or centrifugal). On modern fuel, most 1930s cars will tolerate, and indeed respond positively to a little more advance. My 1936 Pontiac wanted less though. I shortened both the centrifugal and vacuum curves. That is definitely not typical. Before getting too interested in what the initial timing setting should be, I would start by verifying that the centrifugal and vacuum advance are meeting Chrysler's specs.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[VW4X4]

7 hours ago, Professor said:

All,

 

I am trying to optimize timing given that I run 95 octane non-ethanol fuel.  I have been running at 5 degrees before top dead center since I rebuilt the top end, and it runs extremely well with no pinging while flooring it at 70mph.  I am routinely getting 13-14mpg now.

 

Yesterday, I adjusted the timing to 7 degrees before top dead center, and am having no issues at all.  Starting is even easier now than it was at 5 degrees before top dead center.  I don’t know about fuel economy yet.

 

So… with all that said, how far can I safely push the timing?  There is some belief that you can push it until you get pinging under full load with a hot engine, and then back it off.  At some point, fuel ignition is going to occur too far away from top dead center, and I could possibly face damage.  Does this occur at 10 BTC?  15 BTC?   Sans an answer, I will tinker with it in 1 degree increments and test for pinging and fuel economy.  A decrease in fuel economy and/or pinging will cause me to back off the timing.

 

Thanks so much in advance.  I have searched and cannot find a reliable “rule of thumb” for flathead 8 cylinder engines.

 

Joe

By advancing the timing, you are moving the peak power range to higher RPM's.  Depending on the car and how sensitive you are to driving habits you can actually feel the power come on, and change when you change the timing. In my flathead six, I have not been able to feel this ,mainly because these engine are not made to run very fast.  Typically, when racing a car you run the engine at these higher RPM's.....  I have no intention on racing any of my antique cars, so I always leave the timing to stock settings.  I've found factory stock settings to be the best on most cars....

 

ERIC

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by VW4X4 (see edit history)

[Piaras]

I wouldn’t worry about moving the power peak rpm, advancing the timing can usually improve the efficiency.
 

For both the torque and HP, the power peak rpm is set by the intake runner length.
Longer the runner the lower rpm, for example the GM TPI found on the early ‘90s Corvettes and Camaro. Best intake system for the street, lots of low end torque! Peak power is around 4400 no matter how big or small the camshaft is. Now the camshaft is what sets the amount of power at that peak. If one’s wants to get the peak power to a higher rpm, then one swaps the intake for a shorter runner, move from a TPI to a dual plane Performer to a single plane Dominator moves the peak further up the scale but removes low rpm torque in exchange.

Pierre

[Professor]

Thanks @Piaras, @VW4X4, and @Bloo!  

 

I will leave the timing at 7BTDC, check mileage and pinging under load at hot temperatures and then back off when I either hear pinging or my fuel economy starts to roll off.  I will upload the final timing number here.

 

Speaking of timing… I suspect I will need to change the timing chain or perhaps rebuild the distributor at some point.  When I am setting the timing, my timing light jumps around about 1/2 to 1 degree.  The variation is small and I can measure it since my timing light has a manual advance on it, but the timing is not rock solid.  Clearly, the distributor is the easiest fix so I will see if I can figure out if the slop is in the distributor itself.  If it isn’t, I may replace the timing chain at the same time as I install my rebuilt water pump.  With any luck, I can get to the timing chain without having to remove the radiator.  If I have to remove the radiator, I suspect I can live with 1 degree of slop in the timing.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Also.  We are in the dog days of summer here in rural SE North Carolina.  It is too hot to work on or drive the Chrysler unless I do so late at night or early in the morning.  Yesterday the heat index was 109 degrees and it seems that it has been over 106 for a week or so.  I will still take it over the oppressive Arizona heat I lived with for 41 years.

 

Joe

[Piaras]

Half to one degree is not enough for me to tear into things.

 

Yes the heat has been something. Today and yesterday some relief, only on the 80s with morning closer to 60! Not much rain lately.

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, Piaras said:

Half to one degree is not enough for me to tear into things.

 

Yes the heat has been something. Today and yesterday some relief, only on the 80s with morning closer to 60! Not much rain lately.

Yesterday....

[Piaras]

That is hot!

I hear that one drives with oven mitts in Phoenix Arizona summers!

Pierre

Edited July 30, 2022 by Piaras (see edit history)

[keiser31]

37 minutes ago, Piaras said:

That is hot!

I hear that one drives with oven mitts in Phoenix Arizona summers!

Pierre

Phoenix, Oregon can get pretty warm, too.