Watch Fobs

[hook]

Gee these watch fobs are really hot. So I figured they needed a little Air Cooling...................sorry I couldn't resist! 

[Terry Bond]

11 minutes ago, hook said:

Gee these watch fobs are really hot. So I figured they needed a little Air Cooling...................sorry I couldn't resist! 

Would enjoy seeing a photo of the reverse side if you can.  I don't have photos of this one in my reference file.

 

The one I'm adding here from my file of photos. It's an early fob that's marked on the back with the makers name "L.F. Grammes, Allentown PA."   Yours looks like it's patterned after the emblem seen on the hubcaps, which was commonly done. 

 

I have a good friend locally who is a past president of the Franklin Club and he tells me there have been a lot of souvenir items produced over the years for the annual Franklin Trek held in NY. 

 

Thanks for sharing your fob with us.

Terry

[keiser31]

1 hour ago, Terry Bond said:

Would enjoy seeing a photo of the reverse side if you can.  I don't have photos of this one in my reference file.

 

The one I'm adding here from my file of photos. It's an early fob that's marked on the back with the makers name "L.F. Grammes, Allentown PA."   Yours looks like it's patterned after the emblem seen on the hubcaps, which was commonly done. 

 

I have a good friend locally who is a past president of the Franklin Club and he tells me there have been a lot of souvenir items produced over the years for the annual Franklin Trek held in NY. 

 

Thanks for sharing your fob with us.

Terry

That round Franklin emblem looks like the radiator shell emblem for a 1929 Franklin.

[hook]

3 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

Would enjoy seeing a photo of the reverse side if you can.  I don't have photos of this one in my reference file.

 

The one I'm adding here from my file of photos. It's an early fob that's marked on the back with the makers name "L.F. Grammes, Allentown PA."   Yours looks like it's patterned after the emblem seen on the hubcaps, which was commonly done. 

 

I have a good friend locally who is a past president of the Franklin Club and he tells me there have been a lot of souvenir items produced over the years for the annual Franklin Trek held in NY. 

 

Thanks for sharing your fob with us.

Terry

It is smooth with no markings. I believe at one time in its earlier life it was either Nickel or silver plated (the photo doesn't show that very good). It's very old. Also, I've been in the H. H. Franklin Club since 1973 and have never seen a watch fob offered as a souvenir. It is not a remake! 

[TheMoneyPit]

20 hours ago, keiser31 said:

That round Franklin emblem looks like the radiator shell emblem for a 1929 Franklin.

I agree with Keiser, it’s likely a hubcap emblem that was made into a fob by someone along the way. The emblem itself is a great item but it is certainly not an original fob.

 

 I don’t want you to think I am disparaging it, what I am writing is to educate people and I don’t want or mean to offend anyone!

 

Other than a smooth back with no maker’s mark there’s two easily visible telltale’s, first is that the emblem is crooked to the strap slot - something that never would happen from the quality makers of the time. Second is the slot itself showing a square corner on the left side and it looked like the drill drifted on the right causing the chamfered edge. I can only assume it is two pieces soldered together, it looks like some solder is onto the right edge of the emblem to me but it could be a trick of light from the picture. A photo on an angle would confirm this suspicion.

[TheMoneyPit]

By the way Terry, your fob is outstanding! Thank you for sharing it.

[Terry Bond]

2 hours ago, TheMoneyPit said:

I agree with Keiser, it’s likely a hubcap emblem that was made into a fob by someone along the way. The emblem itself is a great item but it is certainly not an original fob.

 

 I don’t want you to think I am disparaging it, what I am writing is to educate people and I don’t want or mean to offend anyone!

 

Other than a smooth back with no maker’s mark there’s two easily visible telltale’s, first is that the emblem is crooked to the strap slot - something that never would happen from the quality makers of the time. Second is the slot itself showing a square corner on the left side and it looked like the drill drifted on the right causing the chamfered edge. I can only assume it is two pieces soldered together, it looks like some solder is onto the right edge of the emblem to me but it could be a trick of light from the picture. A photo on an angle would confirm this suspicion.

Thanks for the additional input - I too share the same concerns about this one.  Although the owner seems pretty sure about it, I hope the chance to learn more about it is welcomed.  That's the purpose Walt G intended when he started this.  It's nice there are so many collectors who are willing to share their knowledge and experience.  We can all benefit from that.  And, as collectors, we've all got a few items that are not 100%.  Nobody starts out as an "advanced collector."  It's an evolution and a learning experience all the way. 

Terry

[Robert G. Smits]

12 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

Nobody starts out as an "advanced collector." 

And after 50 years of collecting many of us are still not advanced collectors!!

[TheMoneyPit]

The only way to become an advanced collector is to be burned enough times that you take the time to deeply study them. I would spend valuable Hershey hours talking with John Webster, Bill Williams, and other collectors who would take the time to pass on their knowledge if you just asked. They would show you how to make a determination on authenticity, and those resources are no longer available to the next generation. Today even with the information you can search out, a lot of that knowledge isn’t able to be shown because there’s a lot you need to see and touch first and even then it’s a crapshoot because the reproduction items from many years ago are really looking their age, just like we are…

[hook]

23 hours ago, TheMoneyPit said:

I agree with Keiser, it’s likely a hubcap emblem that was made into a fob by someone along the way. The emblem itself is a great item but it is certainly not an original fob.

 

 I don’t want you to think I am disparaging it, what I am writing is to educate people and I don’t want or mean to offend anyone!

 

Other than a smooth back with no maker’s mark there’s two easily visible telltale’s, first is that the emblem is crooked to the strap slot - something that never would happen from the quality makers of the time. Second is the slot itself showing a square corner on the left side and it looked like the drill drifted on the right causing the chamfered edge. I can only assume it is two pieces soldered together, it looks like some solder is onto the right edge of the emblem to me but it could be a trick of light from the picture. A photo on an angle would confirm this suspicion.

OK, now that you've picked it apart Oh well that's the way it goes. There is no soldered joints. It is one piece. Yes it is the same size as the brass emblem on the screw on hub cap. However, since there is no soldered joints, it couldn't have been made from one of them. The H.H. Franklin Manufacturing Company made several items that was given to their employees of note. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this was stamped in the Franklin factory for this purpose or even by the guys that was operating the emblem presses at the time. It really doesn't matter a crap to me since I bought the thing for a watch fob and not as a collector. I'll wear it when I drive my Franklin. Of course my Franklins could be reproductions too, I'll have to look for any soldered joints. haha. Oh, by the way, the hubcap emblems are not thick brass, they are thin brass stampings.

Edited November 19, 2021 by hook
left out (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

In the art glass industry of the late 1800'sand early 1900's it was common for the artisans on the glass blowing floors to fabricate personal items in their off time which led to the Dahm and Galle miniatures (small vases no more than 2 inches) that were never sold commercially and were probably given to children or for personal gifts.  What is the possibility that this was fabricated at the factory by a employee for personal use or to give to his father?  Regardless i would wear it proudly

[Robert G. Smits]

1 hour ago, TheMoneyPit said:

The only way to become an advanced collector is to be burned enough times

This criteria should qualify me!!!

[TheMoneyPit]

Obviously my comments did offend, and I apologize for not just ignoring it completely. 

 

It good that you appreciate it for what it is and wear it!

[hook]

On 11/17/2021 at 11:35 AM, keiser31 said:

That round Franklin emblem looks like the radiator shell emblem for a 1929 Franklin.

1928-29 radiator shell emblem did not have the F. It just had Franklin across it. Non of them, whether early type with the F or the later type with Franklin script, had the "Franklin Automobile Company Syracuse, N.Y." on them. That was only on the Hub cap medallion. 

[Terry Bond]

There is a term used by collectors for items like the Franklin fob.  It's called a "fantasy item."  It may never have been mass produced and commercially sold as an "official" Franklin Company advertising piece, but as a possible one-off item only intended to be a special momento, it's an interesting item.  Of course things like these would be further enhanced if provenance is available rather than speculation.  It could very well be an old, unique piece made by a factory worker, salesman, of just a Franklin enthusiast.  It's age is unknown and probably not easy to verify.  How it was made is uncertain, but as was pointed out,  it does appear to be a home-made piece.  We may never know for sure, so without a history trail on it, everything else is pure speculation regarding it's actual background. 

 

The info thoughtfully provided by Moneypit and others is logical and makes sense, and is based on years of experience collecting and handling genuine items.  It's the kind of detail that will keep collectors out of trouble as the market today is flooded with forgeries, fakes, reproductions and other fantasy items made with the intent to sell them to collectors for a profit.  It's when such items get passed on as "genuine" that collectors need to be wary.  Again, without provenance, the fob in question is not one I'd purchase without a bit more real history and a lot less speculation.

 

So, if the question is "is it a real fob" the answer can be both yes, and no.   Sure, it's a real fob, and it's being used and enjoyed by its current owner.  But-no, from what I see as a long-time collector it's probably not a genuine Franklin Company mass produced advertising piece.  It's age and background are unknown.

 

As an aside, I have an interesting Rickenbacker "pin" in my collection.  It was made from a Rickenbacker radiator emblem by a factory worker for his wife to wear to an important company dinner celebration.  It was passed to my be descendants of the family and has a known history.  It's an item that was never made by Rickenbacker.  Small lapel pins were made to give out at auto shows and for salesmen to wear, but they were much smaller in size than my "pin."  to produce it, the mounting stud was removed and a silver pin and clasp was silver-soldered in its place.  It is a "fantasy item" with a great history and is most likely a one-off item that still has a place of pride in my collection.

 

Yes, the Franklin Fob in question could also fall into that category. 

 

As was stated, no offense was intended, and the owner of the fob should be proud of it and continue to use it when driving his Franklin and enjoy it for what it is.  I thank Hook for sharing the photo and helping stimulate this discussion.  As I said previously, that's why Walt created this forum - so we could all learn.

 

Terry

 

 

[hook]

59 minutes ago, TheMoneyPit said:

Obviously my comments did offend, and I apologize for not just ignoring it completely. 

 

It good that you appreciate it for what it is and wear it!

No offence taken. It is old, but that doesn't mean it's a real manufactured item made for it's intended use. It may be made up. As far as the back is concerned, it's a solid piece of brass. You have caused me to really take a careful look at it, which is not a bad thing. I know how it was made now because of your critique caused me to look deeper and with magnification. As I said before, I don't collect watch fobs and my only interest in this one was to use on a fine old watch I have when I'm in my car. The Franklin medallion was made in two forms for the center of the screw on hub caps (a stamping). The early one with the old English F and the later with Franklin script. They were sweat on to the hubcap and nickel plated. They can be heated and removed and sweat soldered to a flat piece of brass and that brass can then be shaped as needed for whatever use desired. That is how this item was made. Yes it is a real watch fob but not an item made and sold as such.

[Walt G]

YES this forum was started as a discussion, and education for any and all of us. Not to berate but to enlighten!  Be happy with what you have and aware of what it is or isn't . If it makes you happy then that is what it is all about.  As the song once said "Don't worry, be happy".  We all own the cars we do for a reason - some restored to perfection , well beyond the level the cars were sold at when new and the owners relish winning an award that says First, Best of Show etc. Some have their cars to drive no matter how perfectly restored it is - I fall into that category. This tread is as Terry repeated, to see what was indeed made /created/designed . Go back into your collection and pick something out not shown here yet and then share it with us. Let's get back to sharing our bits and bobs ( as my British friends are fond of stating) and our wonderful collections be it a lapel pin or a porcelain sign that takes up an entire wall space. Make us happy - SHARE!!!!

Walt

PS more pictures and information please, it is to cold out here in western long island the wind is blowing off a huge flat expanse of property next to my house so I can't go outside and continue to work on a restoration of a Pines Winter Front for a Packard I have  ( no it doesn't fit my Packard but is just a really neat thing!)

Edited November 19, 2021 by Walt G (see edit history)

[Thebuicknut]

On 6/21/2020 at 10:28 PM, MetroPetro said:

These are in our Buick collection. Celluloid, cloisonné, and plated brass?

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Thebuicknut
I'd be interested in buying buick celluloid pins or fobs (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

1 hour ago, Thebuicknut said:

 

Please share your collection with us, or are you just getting started?  Here are a few to watch for pictured below from my own collection or my reference files.

 

Watch fobs in particular have been widely reproduced so be cautious.  I find that the vast majority of sellers on the internet have no idea of whether they are selling real or repop items.  The ads can be very mis-leading. Personally, I think the word "vintage" should be banned!  Another common thing I see in those listings is "came from an estate" or "from an old collection." 

If you need any help or advice on how to spot fakes or reproductions this is a great place to ask questions.

Terry

[Thebuicknut]

Here are some of my trinkets...I just started organizing them in a display cabinet...I am fond of the early celluloid pin backs...I know there are some fakes out there...most people who put them up don't know what they are selling...I'm looking to buy more early pin back type stuff...

 

[Terry Bond]

That's an impressive assortment!

Terry

[NC1968Riviera]

I found this metal with enamel Buick key/watch fob on eBay when I was looking for a new keyring for my Riviera.
I also bought a vintage leather key strap that had a cheap Chevrolet medallion on it.
I discarded the Chevrolet medallion and added this Buick fob, and, viola, I now have a great Buick-themed key fob! 

Edited September 10, 2022 by NC1968Riviera (see edit history)

[trimacar]

OK, Terry, tell me about this one.  "Holder of the Glidden Trophy 1905-6" and "H. Paulman & Co. Agents for Pierce Arrow Automobiles 1430 Michigan Ave. Chicago"...

 

I have a few other Pierce trinkets that were give aways from Paulman, they were a large Pierce-Arrow dealer.  No dash between the words on the FOB.

 

Sure looks and feels old, ever seen another?  thanks dc

[TheMoneyPit]

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

OK, Terry, tell me about this one.  "Holder of the Glidden Trophy 1905-6" and "H. Paulman & Co. Agents for Pierce Arrow Automobiles 1430 Michigan Ave. Chicago"..

Hi David,

 

is there any maker’s mark anywhere? Look closely at the bail itself and use a jeweler loupe if you need… 
 

I have never seen another but that means absolutely nothing with how many dealerships and companies made this type of advertising. Not everything was marked and it looks good but even the 60’s stuff looks good nowadays.

[Walt G]

The comments about how to authenticate something - what to observe and look for , is so important and what this thread is all about. DOCUMENTATION . Just like researching a story you need to look at period objects, photos, information to really be certain what you are so interested in and desire is the real deal. It is a great feeling /satisfaction to see , hold , perhaps own something so historic - may mean nothing to the average non collector type person but to those of us who take a sigh of relief and satisfaction every time we look at what we have it warms us and makes us forget for a few heartbeats all the regular stuff we have to cope with. Thanks to all who care and contribute form you many years of "observation" and learning.

[Terry Bond]

Sorry for the delayed reply - was in out of town most of the day.  Regarding the Pierce fob, I'm going to say it's the real thing. 

Here's my reasoning - a lot of local dealers produced their own advertising/promo pieces.  This piece clearly promotes the dealership as well as the car.  Having won a big award is an ideal opportunity for the dealership to issue a piece like this.   Local dealers often turned to local resources to produce such items and as a result some were not marked with the makers name.  Since it shows "Pierce Arrow" without the hyphenated name it leads me to believe it is indeed a locally produced item.  Promo material offered to dealers through the car companies themselves was of a more standardized nature and was produced in larger quantities by the major manufacturers, like Whitehead & Hoag, Bastian Bros, or Grammes.   Although it's hard to judge for certain, the "patina" looks about right (for whatever that's worth!).  Lastly, I'd have to wonder why someone would produce a fob like this that was merely a "fantasy" item?  Never seen other one like it.   If it was a fantasy item/souvenir type item we'd have seen more than just one pop up. 

Terry

[trimacar]

Thanks forreply, Terry.

 

In my experience, a lot of memorabilia, when held in hand, just doesn’t pass the “real” test.

 

This fob feels and looks right, and as you say, would be an obscure thing to fake.

 

I’m calling it real!  Thanks dc

 

By the way, thats a ruler advertising early Pierce bicycles, a neat piece in and of itself…

[Terry Bond]

Like the ruler too.  Do you have a letter opener?   Would love to find one but have not seen many.

Here is a rare fob I picked up recently - Pope Hartford.  Marked "Whitehead  Hoag" on the back.  Not perfect but it's the only one I've had the chance to buy.

Terry

Edited October 22, 2022 by Terry Bond (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Pierce dealer letter openers?  How many do you want! I think this is all I have, didn’t go through all my cases.

 

top down:

-Pierce and Peerless, Thomas McCaffery, 16 E. 18th Street, city unknown

-Ellis Motor Car Company, Pierce Arrow cars and trucks, 1906-1916, city unknown

-McGuire-Burns Motor Car Corp., Pierce Arrow -  Studebaker, Norwich New York

-Hanson Pierce Arrow, Service, city unknown

-Hayden Automobile Company, Pierce Arrow-Reo-Olsmobile, (on back) Stores Bridgeport, Stamford,Norwalk

-F.W. Kramer Motor Co. Pierce Arrow & Olsmobile, Sales & Service, Grand Rapids Mich.

[TheMoneyPit]

there’s been several nice fobs popping up on eBay recently although the prices for most of them has been strong. I missed out on a Thomas a couple weeks ago because I forgot about it until it was over…

Anyhow, here’s a new one to share, it’s marked by Bastian Brothers.

 

[Terry Bond]

Saw that one and am glad you got it.  It's a nice one and absolutely the real-deal.  It's been interesting watching some of the fobs sell lately.  There seems to be two bidders who are just going at each other rapid fire, just driving up the prices.  

 

I just got this one (non-eviil-bay purchase).  There are quite a few different Velie fobs around, and they usually seem to have eager buyers.  This one is marked "D. S. Childs & Co, Chicago" on the back.  The D.S. Childs company was founded in 1837.  They were a prolific maker of of political campaign tokens and medallions and produced bus and trolley tokens in later years.  They also produced a good variety of automobile fobs over the years.  After 101 years in business the company closed and everything was auctioned off.  Wouldn't it have been great to have been at that auction to purchase their collection of samples!

Terry

[Terry Bond]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:01 AM, trimacar said:

Pierce dealer letter openers?  How many do you want! I think this is all I have, didn’t go through all my cases.

 

top down:

-Pierce and Peerless, Thomas McCaffery, 16 E. 18th Street, city unknown

-Ellis Motor Car Company, Pierce Arrow cars and trucks, 1906-1916, city unknown

-McGuire-Burns Motor Car Corp., Pierce Arrow -  Studebaker, Norwich New York

-Hanson Pierce Arrow, Service, city unknown

-Hayden Automobile Company, Pierce Arrow-Reo-Olsmobile, (on back) Stores Bridgeport, Stamford,Norwalk

-F.W. Kramer Motor Co. Pierce Arrow & Olsmobile, Sales & Service, Grand Rapids Mich.

The one with the oval emblem on it is the one I'm after.

Terry

[trimacar]

58 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

The one with the oval emblem on it is the one I'm after.

Terry

I’ll keep you in mind if I sell, I am getting rid of some things but undecided on these.  Thanks dc

[TheMoneyPit]

20 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

It's been interesting watching some of the fobs sell lately.  There seems to be two bidders who are just going at each other rapid fire, just driving up the prices. 

I suppose that shows renewed interest in the car related Fobs. The same thing seems to be happening with radiator emblems, a handful of people with very deep pockets have joined the hunt. 
 

I’m still finding deals here and there but with less frequency, typically miss-listed items. The WK fob wasn’t well listed as the seller didn’t know what he had but he did well with a 1910 era hill climb medal the next day. I don’t know how many people search the sellers other items when something interesting is listed…

 

This little guy was a “buy-it-now” on eBay but the seller never mentioned it was signed and wasn’t sure if it was a mascot! It’s listing price was much lower than ((1/4 of)) completed auctions of similar mascots! It’s the second Emil Bergson mascot I found this year and I do love my dogs!

 

 

I just finished making him a base out of some spalted oak from my wood pile.

Edited October 28, 2022 by TheMoneyPit (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Yes, sometimes an item gets listed and the seller has no clue.  All too often though I've seen sellers listing things at ridiculous prices, hopeful there is a buyer out there who doesn't have a clue. This mascot has been continually listed now for several years at an absurd price (over $95K buy it now). Meantime, many other examples have been sold on the internet and in well known auctions for exactly what they are worth-hardly even a fraction of the asking price of this one.  Sorry, drifted away from watch fobs but couldn't resist the chance to comment on this particular item.

 

I saw the hill climb fob  It was nice and on the original ribbon.  Mine does not have the ribbon.

[Terry Bond]

Here are a couple of fairly recent acquisitions and a few favorites not pictured before - Inter-State automobiles, made between 1909-1919.  L.J. Witrh was an auto supply company in Newark NJ in the teens.  Colorful fob advertising the Cole 30 Flyer. Last one is a rare fob advertising the Flechter Carburetur.   Still finding them.  Terry

 

[Terry Wiegand]

I have been following this thread and have really seen some interesting pieces.  Please keep in mind that I am not a watch fob collector.  However, I have one that came from my Dad and I would like to know more about it and what you guys can tell me about it.  My Dad got this piece at the AACA Lawrence Swap Meet in Lawrence, Kansas in probably 1964 or 1965.  I believe it to be a real fob because of the maker's mark on the back side.  He gave this to me in late 1990 when he gave the 1916 Buick to Barbara and myself.  It has laid in my desk drawer for 30+ years and I know absolutely nothing about it.  I need to take this down to our one local jeweler and have him put the loupe on it to see what is in the mark on the back side.  The other piece (not a fob) is a Delco piece that I picked up on evil bay about 10 years ago.  It is Bakelite and measures 1.500" in diameter and is .250" thick.  It states 'COMPLIMENTS OF THE SEASON  1916 - 1917'  Can anyone tell me anything about this piece?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Terry Bond]

Nice Buick piece.  I've tried to enlarge the photo but can't quite get it readable precisely.  The logo does seem to be that of the Schwabb Metal Stamping Company in Milwaukee.  It was founded in 1861 as the Northwestern metal stamp works  A large portion of their business was in metal engraving.  In 1888 they became the Schwabb Stamp and Seal company. They produced coins, tokens and medallions for many years, including political campaign items.  They produced quite a variety of fobs over the years including some automotive. The company still exists today as a specialty company in marking and identity products for manufacturers.  I''d date your fob to the 1929-30 time frame, perhaps a bit later due to the use of chrome plating vice earlier nickel.  Nice piece!  

 

Not sure about the Delco item.  It may have been an attachment to something else.

Happy collecting,

Terry

[Terry Wiegand]

Terry,

Thank you for the information.  I have always had the feeling that this piece was old, but, I had no idea where to go or look to find out anything about it.  I lost my Dad 25 years ago and I never thought to ask him what he paid for it.  Going on 60 years ago it probably wasn't very much and things like this were still around if you looked a little bit at the swap meets.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Thebuicknut]

I found the same one in Hershey in Oct I paid next to nothing for it...but its still a cool piece ... yours is a little nicer than mine...