Pricing vs Market

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

I just noticed this topic, already two pages. The first thing I did was scroll through as I looked at the icons to the left, smiling, and confident I know where this one is going. I am just wrapping up to be busy for the rest of the day. I am looking forward to matching the the replies with my preconceived idea of the comments.

Remember these are purely for entertainments purposes only.  

The guys with the fewest replies, aka newest members seem to have more trouble with the discussions than anyone else.

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I have this great memory of sitting on my front porch (maybe 1979?) and this 71 SS Yellow with black stripes rumbled by.   It had the painted wheels so it I think 71.  After that I always wanted one.

 

20 years ago my dad and I were standing in the prep tent for BJ where they funneled them to the stage.   Sitting there was a 70 Fathom Blue on white LS6 4 speed vert.   Copies of the build sheet,  dealer invoice, blah, blah, blah.  I looked at my dad and said I really want this but will only go to X dollars (and it was decent amount of money back then).    I'm thinking I have a 50/50 shot,   and my dad starts giving me a ration of you know what.   "That is a lot of money, what are you gonna do with that", etc, etc.

 

Car sold for 2.5 times my limit.   That was the day I learned to never buy a car at BJ.

 

When I was young, a local Dentist had a 1969 Camaro COPO . As I learned later, at the time none of my friends or I even knew what a COPO was. We just knew it was rather out of the ordinary. A very non descript car , medium green non - metallic paint, dog dish hubcaps , and a exhaust burble that spoke volumes.

Neither the Dentist or his wife who usually drove it were ever known to use any of its performance potential, why they bought it is a mystery. They could have been happy  with a 250 and a powerglide from what I saw of their driving habits.

In 1974 the older brother of a girl I knew in my grade 10 class bought it from the dentist and used it in a much more expected manner. He was a few years older than us so about 18 at the time. Not a total squirrel but not one to shy away from a challenge either. 

By about 1978 the car had passed into the hands of a person I was decades later working with for a number of years.  One day we were reminiscing about the cars of our youth and he mentioned the Camaro.  He said it was simply the fastest street car he had driven. At the time he was in the fishing industry when depending

on the season the paycheques could be quite spectacular.

 Life evolved for him, fishing saw a big downturn, then the usual  wife, son , mortgage and the COPO moved on. He ended up the same as me, a marine engineer . 

We both cherished the memories of that car, me since it was new in 1969, him since he first saw it in 1978. Wonder where it is today ?

 

Greg in Canada

Edited May 9, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

It seems like I keep seeing more post war cars, but the number of prewar cars stays about the same. Maybe there is something about that.

[John_Mereness]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:10 AM, auburnseeker said:

Paid full asking price for both the Dodge and the Auburn I bought this year,  But both were very reasonably priced to begin with and neither were  negotiable.  I guess you don't need to negotiate much if it's priced right to begin with.  I did ask on the Dodge,  doesn't hurt, but got a quick reply and didn't push it. 

Also, both are convertibles and fairly rare - the open car market has always been a different beast. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

  .....younger people especially covered with expensive tattoos and most do seem to have high end phones and often Apple watches.   I think this is cultural as to not have these  items makes you, to use an outdated phrase, Uncool.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. Priorities of what makes you look like a winner (or loser) have really changed over the last couple of decades.

Still, I'm old enough to cling to the axiom that "Only a nobody walks in L.A." 

[Ed Luddy]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I have this great mematory of sitting on my front porch (maybe 1979?) and this 71 SS Yellow with black stripes rumbled by.   It had the painted wheels so it I think 71.  After that I always wanted one.

 

20 years ago my dad and I were standing in the prep tent for BJ where they funneled them to the stage.   Sitting there was a 70 Fathom Blue on white LS6 4 speed vert.   Copies of the build sheet,  dealer invoice, blah, blah, blah.  I looked at my dad and said I really want this but will only go to X dollars (and it was decent amount of money back then).    I'm thinking I have a 50/50 shot,   and my dad starts giving me a ration of you know what.   "That is a lot of money, what are you gonna do with that", etc, etc.

 

Car sold for 2.5 times my limit.   That was the day I learned to never buy a car at BJ.

The B-J crowd has way more money than I'll ever have to spend on any Chevelle. I'm also sure most of those cars are far nicer than mine. But trying to relive my misspent youth in an old Chevelle isn't the smartest move I've ever made!

[Avanti Bill]

All cars are worth what you or someone else are willing to pay, simple as that.

[1912Staver]

There are at least two different perspectives that can be looked at in terms of the Pricing / Market equation. The first is a person relatively new to the hobby. The prices are what they are, the supply vs demand factor. The newly interested individual knows his budget ; takes a look at what is available at that price point , and either makes a choice or possibly even looks into a different pastime.

For those of us decades into the hobby it tends to be a far more complex situation. Many forces at work including both internal and external. In the end it does boil down to supply and demand but for many a far more complex equation. Unless you have been involved with old cars for 30 - 50 years you probably have no idea of the range of factors involved.

Just like in  gambling ; the longer you do or try to do something , the more likely that the cards are going to fall against you. Health, both yours and your immediate family, prosperity, natural disasters, floods , fires, hurricanes , tornado's ,  market trends, inflation vs earnings, technical change in the workplace, globalization, dare I say pandemics. All can put forces in play that can derail the most 

well meaning of plans. The newly minted old car hobbyist just has the preceding few years influencing his experience. Going for the long haul introduces a vast gamut of variables , some will work out as positives, but many will definitely erode a hobbyists base line. There is a stunning spectrum of moving parts in a 25 - 35 year slice of our lives.

Greg in Canada

Edited May 10, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Avanti Bill]

"Just because it is rare doesn't make it valuable"  That is one of the best pieces of advice I have ever received from people in the old car hoby.

[padgett]

"dog dish hubcaps " How soon they forget. Back in the day GM had no stock "performance" wheels. Except for Corvettes (I used to run 15x8 Corvette wheels from Detroit to Indiana back then. $60 for 4 in Detroit and $200 delivered in Indy. Paid for every Rochester FI I could find.) 15x8  Snowflakes were not around until 1978. The dog dish was popular because it was the cheapest wheel you could buy. Many (I was one) already had some decent wheels and sometimes tires under the bed before the car arrived (every new car I bought had to be special ordered usually because I wanted a Muncie and A/C). Times were different then.

[Ed Luddy]

Poverty caps or dog dishes were quite common  in the day for factory built cars as a lot of the original buyers went directly to the the local speed shop and changed them for Cragar's, Keystones, ET's, or whatever.

[Guest]

This is very true Ed.

Mopar understood this very well with their Rapid Transit (performance) line of cars. They knew as soon as the car was bought, first stop was the tire shop and whatever wheels that came with the car were going right into the dumpster and a nice set of mags would be installed. So they sold many cars with the most basic steel wheel the the very basic poverty caps. So now when I see a nice Roadrunner, Cuda or GTX after an expensive rotisserie restoration sporting a set of poverty wheels/caps, I just cringe.

It was a hideous look when delivered and never meant to last.

Greg

[TTR]

^^ I (again) see the wheel issue differently. Factory was delivering “Muscle” cars in stripped-down-to-bare-essentials-go-fast form, but just like today (& long before) many car buyers wanted to personalize/pimp-out their new rides and easiest way to do that was at the nearest wheel and/or shiny-trinket outlet. Next stop was probably JC Whitney catalog for more of the same.
Not much has changed with peoples car buying/owning habits in 100+ years. Add-on bling has been, is and always will be popular.

Edited May 11, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[JACK M]

9 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Roadrunner, Cuda or GTX after an expensive rotisserie restoration sporting a set of poverty wheels/caps, I just cringe.

 

I am kind of partial too that plain sleeper look.

I never really got into buying expensive wheels but for a few rare occasions.

It seemed to me that for a relatively high priced nonreturnable it was a big decision. And what is popular today wont be popular again for about thirty years.

[Guest]

Hey Jack,

                      I'm with you on the whole sleeper idea. I like them too but I think a sleeper is just that, a car that totally disguises what's going on under the hood. For me at least, these Mopars completely fail in the sleeper category with their high impact colors, radical stripe packages, fiberglass blacked out hoods/scoops, large decal engine call outs (440 SIX PACK, HEMI, and the enormous 340 WEDGE decal, etc.), quarter panel billboards. Everything just screaming "This is a high performance car!" Everything, that is, except those poverty row steel wheels with a skinny set of black wall F 70/14 nylon tires. 

They weren't fooling anyone! 

Edited May 11, 2020 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[JamesR]

A good thread by GregLaR. The pricing of old cars seems confusing and confounding to many of us who like old cars. It's as if there's some magical property that resides in metal that came out of foundries 50 years ago or more. And that magical ingredient stopped being added in 1975, unless you're talking about  some70's European cars.

 

But speaking of European cars (more recent examples)...one of the things that makes the pricing of old American cars so confusing is that a Mercedes that sold new for something approaching $100,000 18 years ago will often have an asking price - in good visual and mechanical condition - of something like this:

$5999

2002 Mercedes-Benz 600-Series S600 | eBay

 

$7998

2002 Mercedes-Benz CL-Class CL 500 | eBay

 

While old American P'sOC that went for $700 to $800 maybe 18-20 years ago will have asking prices like this:

$5000

1963 Ford Galaxie 500 XL xl500

 

$4800

1965 Ford Galaxie 500 | eBay

[1912Staver]

The big factor is the cost of keeping the European luxo - barge running. Maintenance and repair on any older luxury make is pricy, Benz, top of the line BMW etc . costs can be jaw dropping for anyone { 99% of the public } who can't do things themselves.

So once the cars hit an age where they are off warranty and needing attention it does not take long before they plummet in value.

The original owner could afford the initial cost and upkeep, but as the car ages it falls into far less affluent hands, with little if any chance the costs will be a business related write- off as it was probably when it was new.

Greg

Edited May 11, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

16 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

The big factor is the cost of keeping the European luxo - barge running. Maintenance and repair on any older luxury make is pricy, Benz, top of the line BMW etc . costs can be jaw dropping for anyone { 99% of the public } who can't do things themselves.

So once the cars hit an age where they are off warranty and needing attention it does not take long before they plummet in value.

The original owner could afford the initial cost and upkeep, but as the car ages it falls into far less affluent hands, with little if any chance the costs will be a business related write- off as it was probably when it was new.

Greg

 

One of the most eye-opening things I've heard recently is that a friend who is now the service manager of an Audi dealership said they won't take in used Audis that don't have much factory warranty left (like more than 30,000 miles). Even for the dealer, they are WAY too expensive to fix if Audi isn't paying the bills.

 

The biggest bargain in the world is a lightly used German luxury car. If you're lucky, like I was with my 2005 Audi allroad, all you'll do is gas and oil and other routine maintenance for more than 100,000 miles. If you're not lucky, the repairs will quickly eclipse the car's value and leave you hemorrhaging cash. Unfortunately, there's just no way to know up front which it will be.

[DAVES89]

AUDI "Are You Done Investing". My daughter bought one [out of any warranty" and ate up a lot of money, so she tried to sell it, no takers. My wife always liked it and talked me into buying it to help my daughter out. It started on our bank account. I finally sold it to a wholesaler to be rid of it...

[padgett]

Not what I remember. In 1970 to run in a stock class you were limited to a 7" cheater (two grooves) slick. Castler repops were popular. Worked best at about 15-20 psi screwed to a 15x8 wheel. Except for Corvettes there were no factory 8" wheels. So the reason for the dog dish blackwalls in E (Camaro), F (Mustang), or G70 tires (fast cars) was there was not a better choice from the Factory (my 70 Judge came with 14x6" wheels) so many ordered the cheapest thing available and replaced them immediately. Anyone who thinks a COPO had dog dishes for more than a week just wasn't there.