Jump to content

Pricing vs Market


Guest

Recommended Posts

Like you, I'm bored so I thought I'd ask for a little of your feedback on this subject.

Let me begin by saying that my curiosity in this area is completely with private sellers rather than dealers and of course I realize people are free to price their items at whatever figures they like to, however.....

 

I have noticed an attitude trend, or rather a bias in pricing/selling of vintage or collector cars and, while it doesn't appear to prevail , it certainly pervades, on virtually every car forum of which I am a member.

I'm talking about the tendency for those who list cars for sale at higher than realistic prices to declare that the market has gone "soft" when they get no action on their listings. I've seen this from brass era to muscle car era.

I know you've all seen it as well, on many selling mediums; a great car but priced in the stratosphere and, as courtesy is the order of the day, most people will compliment the car but completely avoid mention of the errant pricing. Many times the cars will stay listed for months (or even years) with several price drops (which there's plenty of room for) but still not enough to draw a real buyer. Generally the seller will post at some point that "No one wants this car?" or "The market has completely fallen" or  "There are simply no more buyers for XYZ model of car anymore". When in fact there are plenty of buyers for every decade of car, provided the vehicle is priced realistically. And, just as a point of fact, I am thinking of no particular car while I type this, nor am I looking at an over priced one currently. This is just an "in general" stream of consciousness.

This bias seems to be even more prevalent with project cars. Perhaps it's more obvious there. I understand the idea of XYZ car being worth $XXX,XXX when restored so a dilapidated one needing full restoration should be worth $XX,XXX. But simple arithmetic will disprove this thinking very quickly. Unfortunately this leaves many great projects to rot in barns for years or at least until the current owner finally passes away and then his family will dump it for a fraction of his asking price.... if there's anything left of it to sell.

Many years ago I sold real estate and found that I could draw a legion of buyers to an abandoned house with a very bad roof and broken windows, in a decent neighborhood if the price was right. The seller thought nobody would want his neglected, former rental property.

Anything will sell if the price is right.

I have sold many of my cars on eBay and had a good experience every time. I understand how the auction system works and utilize it. Many pictures, much information and a low opening bid. I hit a world wide market and no vehicle there will ever slip through the cracks. There are just too many people watching. I've read of others who curse eBay endlessly as a waste of time but when I've looked at some of their previous ads, they'll have poor pictures, little info and, my personal favorite, they start their "No Reserve" auction at $10 less than full blown retail, good luck with that. Heavens to Murgatroid, that's not the system's fault.

I have sold cars in strong economic markets and weak ones. Yes, it has some effect on the collector car but they generally have an intrinsic value that will withstand a roving economy. I think if you take the strongest market you've ever had and the weakest market you've ever had and let them cancel each other out (because neither ever lasts), you'll find the middle market is pretty steady.

Some of my cars I keep for a short period, some for a long period. It varies and all comes down to the day I realize "I'm just bored with this one or, hey! there's a different one I'd like to have" (c'mon, some guys date their secretaries) so when I put one up for sale they are usually gone in less than two weeks no matter what medium I use to sell them. I don't price them at "fire sale" prices. I generally get fair, full market value. No more, no less so I find selling as easy as buying. I've never had to beg for a buyer or repeatedly slash my price. And yes, I've sold project cars as well, same method. And I never once considered that the market for any of my collector cars had "gone soft".

Just some random thinking on my part, so feel free to post your thoughts/experiences on this subject or flame away if I've offended you. I'm trapped in my house and there's really nothing I can do about it. 

Cheers, Greg

over22.thumb.jpg.f1da65af711e0a74302ba4a1fd55714f.jpg

 

 

Edited by GregLaR (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't agree with you more with your sales tactic and take on the market.  In my previous life I was responsible for disposing of various pieces of property for a government agency.  With the exception of vehicles everything I sold on online auctions started at $10.  I tried to explain to the individual that took over from me that the market will set the price which they never did comprehend and then couldn't understand why things didn't sell.  I even managed to sell a used toilet and the buyer drove 60 miles each way to pick it up!  With vehicles, I followed the excellent advice of our rep from the online sales company and made the starting price the minimum that I would expect to receive for the vehicle, which was usually slightly above scrap value, and always ended up with a selling price far higher than I would have expected.  Plenty of pictures and a full and honest description always yielded positive results.  

 

Don  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been a common complaint since the car collecting hobby started. The flip side is, "the rich guys like Harrah (Leno) have priced the little guy like me out of the market.That's why you can't buy a Duesenberg  (57 Chevy) for $2000 anymore".

 

Decent cars are still being left to sit and rot into uselessness, and guys are still sitting on their duff waiting for a $20,000 car to come along for $500. Some things don't change. Fortunately there are still some sensible sellers, and buyers willing to pony up a decent price but there are lots of dreamers too.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's one benefit of the real estate market over the classic car market:  When houses are offered for sale, the number of days it has been on the market is prominently listed and gives you a good idea of whether it is perceived as being priced too high.  And then you have an agent urging the seller to drop the price.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

That's one benefit of the real estate market over the classic car market:  When houses are offered for sale, the number of days it has been on the market is prominently listed and gives you a good idea of whether it is perceived as being priced too high.  And then you have an agent urging the seller to drop the price.  

 

You are absolutely right.

Haunted houses, murder houses, critter infested houses, abandoned houses full of homeless crackheads, etc. There is a buyer for every one of them if they're priced right. 

And I've yet to meet a realtor who found any benefit to listing a house in any neighborhood over market value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that, often, high prices on some sites are

based on lack of accurate pricing information.

A seller--a widow, a family member, or an owner

on the fringes of the hobby--will see exorbitant

asking prices by dealers and other optimists.

He doesn't realize that those are ASKING prices,

not SELLING prices.

 

"Oh, my common 1979 Lincoln Town Car with

70,000 miles must be worth $20,000!  Wow!

I think I'll buy a new camper or a boat with that money!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree with John's assessment, my initial reaction to this is that when most hobbyists (not family, heirs, etc.) Put a car on the market, they either do not bother (75%, pure seat of pants guess, but Greg did say he was bored..) to research the market, naturally assuming they know the current market value.  Emotional factors, or "I have xxx into this thing so.." or, "my friend sold essentially the same car, except it was a roadster, for xx, my 6 window sedan must be close", or the sale he referenced took place 8 years back. Bottom line "I know my car's value"...  You get it. The other 25% do the research but struggle with accepting unwelcome news.  In 100% of these overpriced cars, seller is 100% sure its accurately priced.

 

Cars are selling even during carona nutty times.  I suspect those successful private sellers would be priced close or at their listed price virus or not.

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are all guilty of the same thing:  thinking our stuff is worth more than it actually is and the other guys stuff isn't. 

 

I've sold and bought a a few cars in the last 2 years and I can tell you this:

 

1.  99% of every advertised car you see will sell for less than asking.

 

2.  Project cars have almost no value unless they are a Duesenberg or a 40-42 Willys Coupe. 

 

3. Your run of the mill 4 door sedan only has value if it runs like a top and is otherwise attractive,  but that value is probably 25% of what the owner has in to it.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ever increasing costs to restore cars, along with the ever decreasing supply of parts and craftsmen, leads to many projects that will not or can not be finished by the current owner.  Those owners can’t accept that while they have more in their projects than they hoped, buyers are also generally “smarter” than ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Greg-Lar points out, there is an attitude factor, a significant factor.  If a car or even a part for that matter is priced way out of line, I personally ignore the offering even after price drops.  My attitude is that the car or part is not worth the fight and likely anger from the seller if a more accurate price could even be discussed.  I was recently offered a very hard to find stainless trim part for an exorbitant price.  I ceased all further discussions and paid an equal amount to restore one that was damaged.  The old adage that people like to do business with someone they like and trust plays here.  High priced sellars either have an overly wealthy clientele that I am unwilling and unable to compete with or they have an attitude that I would rather not deal with. 

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car and what the circumstances were around that.  Greg, hope this is related enough for the discussion. 🙂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car and what the circumstances were around that.  Greg, hope this is related enough for the discussion. 🙂

 

April 18 1989.   Tuesday morning new Want Advertiser hit shelves. I was the third guy to call from the new Want Ad on a 69 GT500.  First two guys passed then it was my turn.  He wanted $10,500 or he went to guy #4.  Had 20 calls that morning.

 

ShelbyGT500Fastback.thumb.jpg.43b670ef46ec55e3654f20b7bd4cb534.jpg 

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, alsancle said:

We are all guilty of the same thing:  thinking our stuff is worth more than it actually is and the other guys stuff isn't. 

 

I've sold and bought a a few cars in the last 2 years and I can tell you this:

 

1.  99% of every advertised car you see will sell for less than asking.

 

2.  Project cars have almost no value unless they are a Duesenberg or a 40-42 Willys Coupe. 

 

3. Your run of the mill 4 door sedan only has value if it runs like a top and is otherwise attractive,  but that value is probably 25% of what the owner has in to it.

 

I agree completely with this.

 

It is, however, educational to hear what "the market" thinks of the market. People contact me all the time and tell me what the market is doing. Rarely are they correct. I had someone e-mail me just this week about a 1932 Ford roadster hot rod (steel car). His comment was that nobody likes those anymore and "the market" for hot rods is crashing and that I should be willing to take about 70% of our asking price on a car that's already listed for 50% of its build cost. Meanwhile, Precision Hot Rods (formerly Lobeck's) next door is booked out three years building that exact same car. I have had dozens of people contact me since the Coronavirus thing started suggesting that nobody is buying anything and that I should take whatever they're offering because it will be the only sale I get anytime in the future. More than one guy has said, "I'm the only guy in the world who wants that car, you better take what I'm giving you." I will admit that I was pretty darned scared in March when we sold only one car, but then we had the best April in our history. Predictions of the market's demise are premature, but it is definitely changing dramatically and permanently.

 

I think the days of old cars getting more valuable are 100% over. Almost all of them are only going down from here, I don't care how nice it is or how much you love it or how much you spent to buy it or how expensive the restoration was. You're going to lose money, and you will lose more two years from now than you will lose today. The market isn't "down," and it won't "come back" next year. This is the new reality and the curve is going down forevermore. Don't believe me? Ask the train guys or the stamp collectors or the jukebox rebuilders how it's going.

 

The cars will exist, people will still buy them, but there will be a whole lot of garden-variety cars fighting for fewer interested buyers until the prices get so low that they pull in people who otherwise wouldn't have been interested in such a thing. Mega-collections will continue to fill up with the great stuff (no, you're never going to get a cheap Packard Twelve), but everything else will be no more desirable than old car magazines: interesting to those who were there, but trash to almost everyone else.

 

With all that in mind, go drive the hell out of your cars. Don't save them for the next guy or fret about hurting its value if you get a scratch or some dirt on the undercarriage. Use it up because you're going to lose money no matter what you do. May as well have the fun you paid for, right?

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone ever seen a buyer say a car is underpriced?  Real estate agents lead folks to believe that they "want to get as much as possible for your house 'cause I get more commission (sp) that way" when just the opposite is true. They want you to list your property as cheaply as possible so they can get a fast sale.  They want volume with as little work as possible.  I am afraid some collector car dealers operate the same way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming the seller is going to remain active in the hobby post sale there is probably a psychological factor at work. He no doubt has a rough idea of the " next " car he wants to buy and the general asking price he sees on examples of that car.

And if he is in a position to put up another $5000, $10000 or whatever he has a rough target of the new car price minus the available cash leaving the balance to be provided by the sale of the existing car.

And he probably has at least some evidence that " his " car  can conceivably be worth the target sum, auction results , ebay etc regardless of the fact that his car may be a pretty so- so example.

Therefore he just needs to find the right buyer. Someone who sees the car in the same sort of light he saw it in when it was purchased rather than an opportunist buyer who knows a price is a great deal even though he wasn't looking 

for that particular sort of car. 

 Then there are the obvious unrealistic sellers , nice examples of things like Gazelle kit cars with $15000 - $20000 price tags. A gem to the owner perhaps, and probably in line with the cost to have one built , but to 99 44/ 100 % of car hobbyist's something to be avoided like a virus.

 Estate sellers other than Widows generally just want the car gone, with whatever back in the pocket possible with the least amount of trouble. 

 

Greg in Canada

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Has anyone ever seen a buyer say a car is underpriced?  Real estate agents lead folks to believe that they "want to get as much as possible for your house 'cause I get more commission (sp) that way" when just the opposite is true. They want you to list your property as cheaply as possible so they can get a fast sale.  They want volume with as little work as possible.  I am afraid some collector car dealers operate the same way.

That's how I run my literature business.  I could sit around with big buy it nows or high starting bids like all the other guys selling or have been trying to sell for some time,  but everything starts cheap, 1.99-2.99, no reserve.   99% sells through and I move on.  If you can find enough inventory reasonable and don't mind listing 30-40 items a night you can make it work.  The thing is can you bite the pill when something that you know should bring $300 sells for $50?  I do.  Sometimes I even lose money on items I paid more for,  but since I sell alot of like stuff at a time, customers build orders and pay more for common items I bought cheaper to put them in their pile.

So far it works,  but the one guy I bought a large collection from , who noted the price of every piece paid,  would cringe when he saw the dealer album he paid $750 for sell for $200. 

All part of the game,  but atleast my inventory stays fresh.  Maybe that's their Philosophy as well. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car and what the circumstances were around that.  Greg, hope this is related enough for the discussion. 🙂

Paid full asking price for both the Dodge and the Auburn I bought this year,  But both were very reasonably priced to begin with and neither were  negotiable.  I guess you don't need to negotiate much if it's priced right to begin with.  I did ask on the Dodge,  doesn't hurt, but got a quick reply and didn't push it. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I‘ll undoubtedly get called “unkind” again, especially after admitting I didn’t bother reading the OP much beyond word “bored” or other replies, I guess I agree, there’s probably nothing more boring than reading umpteenth million time same old, same old endless/useless threads about “market this“, “value that“, “prices too high/low/long/short/whatever ” and words, words, words on car forums.
I wonder how many other hobby communities or forums are littered with same type of nonsense behavior ?
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, TTR said:

While I‘ll undoubtedly get called “unkind” again, especially after admitting I didn’t bother reading the OP much beyond word “bored” or other replies, I guess I agree, there’s probably nothing more boring than reading umpteenth million time same old, same old endless/useless threads about “market this“, “value that“, “prices too high/low/long/short/whatever ” and words, words, words on car forums.
I wonder how many other hobby communities or forums are littered with same type of nonsense behavior ?
 

 

"unkind" is the wrong word.   What sort of conversations do you think are ok?

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For a good example of an unrealistic price look at the currently listed Briscoe package. { cars for sale } What's a decent running survivor worth ?, possibly $10,000 top's ? Here are a pair of total basket cases offered for about !/2 of that sort of price. Even if one of the { small } handful of later teen's Briscoe fans saw this pair I doubt many would bite.

 

Greg in Canada.... nothing against Briscoe , but they aren't exactly a hot commodity these days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my experience all other hobby based forms have the same discussions about market values. Its normal human behaviour to talk about where we put our emotions and money. If you don’t want to be involved in these discussions stop reading them and move on. Why post your negativity here? Its a discussion about old cars in an old car forum. Pretty simple to explain in my opinion. 
 

I see over priced parts all the time. I am prepared to offer a price and move on. A price that I am willing to live with. If the seller wants more, no problem. Carry on and good luck. I’m not prepared to throw money into the wind on my mass produced 1938 4 door, putter-around-town sedan.  Yet sellers think, its old. Its chrome. Its rare. Its worth its weight in gold. Not so in my opinion. I’m fine carrying on waiting. I can wait for decades for the right transaction price. No problem. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, TTR said:

While I‘ll undoubtedly get called “unkind” again, especially after admitting I didn’t bother reading the OP much beyond word “bored” or other replies, I guess I agree, there’s probably nothing more boring than reading umpteenth million time same old, same old endless/useless threads about “market this“, “value that“, “prices too high/low/long/short/whatever ” and words, words, words on car forums.
I wonder how many other hobby communities or forums are littered with same type of nonsense behavior ?
 

 

There's always the option of not reading or posting in that thread so you're not contributing to the "problem."

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car and what the circumstances were around that.  Greg, hope this is related enough for the discussion. 🙂

 

 

I DID!  Asking price was half of market value at the time, sold non automotive collectable to cover it and had money left over. WIN WIN!!!🙂🙂

 

Bob 

 

UPDATE: The Non Automotive collectable was something I picked up for free, in a cleanout.

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

 Why post your negativity here? 

Obviously we all see or perceive things differently, but IMO majority of these "Market", "Pricing",  "Values'" , etc threads and posts in them seem to be about bickering & bit**ing, i.e. "negativity" and I'm trying to point that out, but apparently constant bit**ing and moaning about financial aspects of (this) hobby is important for many, so I guess my attempts are futile. I too would prefer seeing more positive aspect or topics about this hobby.

Besides, why can't these topics be contained in fewer, already existing threads ?

Why do we need to see "new", yet same old, same old ones started daily/hourly ?   

Why do so many feel a need to publicly gripe about their (financial) inability to enjoy (any) hobby ?

Perhaps they should look into something they can afford, start enjoying it and move on.

And then some wonder why this hobby appears to be loosing interest among younger generations.

Edited by TTR (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most threads on here are a repeat of an older thread if you dig deep enough.  White walls or not, Good deals or not, Matching numbers, Titles, shipping dealing with unscrupulous sellers,  Even many problems with cars have already been solved.  Car guys are going to discuss the same thing over and over, there is only so much you can discuss about cars before it comes around again. 

Same with any topic on probably any forum.  Yes something new may come along, but many things are very specific so they will have few participants or even raise the eyes of many members here. The recurring threads usually have lots of participants so that translates to lots of interest.  There will be many more rehashed. I don't see a problem with it.  As said pass on if you don't want to look. There are lots of topics I pass on. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car and what the circumstances were around that.  Greg, hope this is related enough for the discussion. 🙂

 

Steve,

               This is an excellent question and totally related for the discussion. I know "dickering" just seems to be an inherent part of the process when it comes to car buying/selling, but every once in a while a car comes up at a price that you just know is right. Case in point, my latest Corvette purchase.1963-67 Corvette entry level pricing (project, basket case, etc.) is around $20K today. There is nothing left for $15K or less. Mine (a project) came up for sale at an asking price of $18K. I didn't hesitate. I was the second caller and owned the car an hour later. Seller said the first caller, who hadn't even seen the car, offered him several thousand less, over the phone... just because he felt he needed to. His loss, my happy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, TTR said:

Obviously we all see or perceive things differently, but IMO majority of these "Market", "Pricing",  "Values'" , etc threads and posts in them seem to be about bickering & bit**ing, i.e. "negativity" and I'm trying to point that out, but apparently constant bit**ing and moaning about financial aspects of (this) hobby is important for many, so I guess my attempts are futile. I too would prefer seeing more positive aspect or topics about this hobby.

Besides, why can't these topics be contained in fewer, already existing threads ?

Why do we need to see "new", yet same old, same old ones started daily/hourly ?   

Why do so many feel a need to publicly gripe about their (financial) inability to enjoy (any) hobby ?

Perhaps they should look into something they can afford, start enjoying it and move on.

And then some wonder why this hobby appears to be loosing interest among younger generations.

 

TTR,

             Your opinion is valid and a different perspective is always welcome. We all see these things differently, which is good or things would become pretty boring around here. :lol:

Greg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The traditional influences of the market place like caveat emptor (buyer beware), supply and demand, market research, what's hot, what's not, investment versus keep forever, and on and on, work well in large segments, like real estate, jewellery, artwork, new cars and the like. But when it comes to anything used, other than caveat emptor, most influences don't apply in any discernable pattern. In niche markets, there are simply a small number of buyers and sellers. Some buyers know what they are looking for (have done their research), and what fair value is. 2 exceptions are the "motivated" buyer who just has to have something, and the "uninformed" buyer" who is a sucker for something flashy or a sales pitch. Among the sellers, the same is true. "Motivated sellers" are anxious to part with their car, for any number of reasons (estate, cash crunch, divorce, space, etc) and usually set a price fair. The "over-invested" seller (too much $$$ spent on purchase or restoration) wants to get more than the car is worth. The "uninformed/optimistic seller" wants to turn a tidy profit if he can. This is typically the playing field for old car sales. In the larger context sits the supply/demand equation. Today, perception (at least) is that the demand for old cars (other than rare or highly desirable ones) is shrinking (as early boomers die off) while supply is growing as those same early boomers die off. This will naturally lead to a drop in final sale price. In a hot segment of the market however (like 70's muscle cars),  the opposite might be true. There are more and more buyers now ready to retire who want to get the car they used to own or admire. And there are fewer of those cars around, and the cost to restore the ones that are around is high. 

 

So, nothing is new. Supply and Demand will always rule the market place, and in a niche market, you better know what you're doing or you will get stung, either as a buyer or as a seller.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Which leads to another question I wonder about.  I wonder how many here have paid full asking price for a car  🙂

I have, more than once, but I've also received full "asking", more than once.

OTOH, having personally bought, owned and sold probably 100+ (mostly vintage) cars in past 4 decades, above should be expected, just as I've probably "lost" money on more than few, but no complaints here. I'm into this s**t for 40+ years because I love vintage cars more than money. If I had more of latter, I'd just spend/waste more on formers.

If money was more important than cars to me, I sure as s**t wouldn't spend former on latter and I'd probably try find some other hobby worth a while to waste it on, but wouldn't be constantly whining about it either.

 

Edited by TTR (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is one other factor at work here, the loss of buying power a slice of the old car hobby households has experienced over the last 40 years.  Before the early 1980's a good percentage of old car hobby participants could afford to be involved with a large portion of the overall market. Average and slightly better , middle class households 

could conceivably afford the lower 3/4 or so of the old car price spectrum. Even $10,000.00 bought a very respectable old car in those days. At $25,000.00 something reasonably special was a decent possibility.

These days the middle class and lower households are in many cases finding it hard enough just to meet normal living costs. At the same time anything interesting in an old car is as often than not somewhere in the $20,000.00 - $75,000.00  bracket,.  A noticeable disconnect between a middle class collector car cost and a middle class budget.

Relatively few middle classed households have 3 times the discretionary spending similar households had 40 years ago, but many old car prices have seen at least a 3 fold increase over that some time. Some much more.

Some attempt to offset part of this disconnect by small time vehicle flipping. The persons knowledge and situation within the hobby allows for decent buys, and then it is just a matter of connecting with the right buyer. Someone who knows what it is , wants it , and has the means to become the new owner.

Up to recently it is a technique that has generally successful. 

 

Greg in Canada

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, TTR said:

 

If money was more important than cars to me, I sure as s**t wouldn't waste former on latter and I'd find some other hobby worth a while to spent it on.

 

So I think that is the case for most of us here, I know even a couple dealer pals on this forum who, for the right car, are either knowingly, willingly or just end up "underwater".  The right car being simply pushing the right buttons for any number of reasons.  The thought behind this question was what was the situation and does it make for interesting conversation.  Got one you think is a particularly interesting story?  

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1912 Staver, I don't think facts would bear out the statement "the loss of buying power a slice of the old car hobby households has experienced over the last 40 years". Most economists suggest society as a whole is more affluent today than ever, even if any individual may not be. The reality is that there are so many other places to spend one's money, cruises, big screeens, internet, gizmos, gyms, bigger and bigger houses, better education, flying around the world, vacations in the mountains, RV's, you name it. Present short term (COVID) drop in economic circumstances aside, lots of money out there, may not be fairly distributed, but that is called free enterprise. There has always been a small slice of the old car hobby who struggled to stay in the game and looked for a good starter car. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

1912 Staver, I don't think facts would bear out the statement "the loss of buying power a slice of the old car hobby households has experienced over the last 40 years". Most economists suggest society as a whole is more affluent today than ever, even if any individual may not be. The reality is that there are so many other places to spend one's money, cruises, big screeens, internet, gizmos, gyms, bigger and bigger houses, better education, flying around the world, vacations in the mountains, RV's, you name it. Present short term (COVID) drop in economic circumstances aside, lots of money out there, may not be fairly distributed, but that is called free enterprise. There has always been a small slice of the old car hobby who struggled to stay in the game and looked for a good starter car. 

 

I think you will find inequity has increased substantially over that time period. I agree with your premise that "society as a whole is more affluent than ever" however that affluence in my point of view, is increasingly concentrated in higher net worth households. And there is a large body of research that support my notion of rising inequity as well as yours of overall affluence growth .The middle class; regardless of wise spending or not, is from what I can see definitely seeing purchasing power shrink.  I am not commenting about the exceptional within the hobby ; cars or people, simply the ordinary. And relative situations over time. Most of the spending items you list above are increasingly rare these days in middle class budgets, despite rising standards of education and the growth of two income family's over the decades. There are a significant minority of households that have done very well indeed, and a even larger number who are either stagnant or slowly loosing ground.

 

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/

Or if you need some lockdown reading perhaps Thomas Piketty's " Capital in the Twenty- First Century " or his more recent " Capital and Ideology ". 

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

So I think that is the case for most of us here, I know even a couple dealer pals on this forum who, for the right car, are either knowingly, willingly or just end up "underwater".  The right car being simply pushing the right buttons for any number of reasons.  The thought behind this question was what was the situation and does it make for interesting conversation.  Got one you think is a particularly interesting story?  

I probably have numerous such stories, but none I care to share in detail on this (nauseatingly boring) thread topic.

One such example could be my PB Sports Roadster which I paid full asking 30 years ago, but haven’t had a single regret of doing so, even though at the time all or most of my vintage car buddies thought (rightfully perhaps ?) that I was an absolute idiot, not to mention some who still or even more so think likewise if I reveal what kind of (high ?) offers I’ve laughingly turned down for the same car.
And mind you, I’m a man of very limited means, definitely nothing approaching wealthy.

 

Edited by TTR (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In general there are two kinds of car for sale: ones the seller wants to sell and ones they do not (see "happy wife"). I have deliberately priced a car I did not want to sell, high.

OTOH cars I want to sell I usually price about $500 above the expected selling price to leave shaggle room.

And on the gripping hand, at least half of the people who might buy a car are not doing anything during these time (Florida has some of the lowest unemployment payments in the country and the system is so screwed up that over half of applicants are being rejected without explanation and is running out of money anyway (and involved in at least one class action suit and a government inquiry).

 

That said it is interesting that an unrestored '64 'vette is a bargain at $18k while have my pick of C5s (targa, 6 speed manual, LS, AC) for around $10k (had a split window, a C5 is lots nicer). Point is that every year the market for a specific car gets increasingly diluted.

 

IME all the online marketplaces (except e-Bay) list the posing or revision date.

 

Am sorta vaguely in the market for either a C5 or an XLR, one of them. But not an "enthusiastic buyer", just if the right deal appears I have a space available.

 

BTW my major concern is what starts in Florida June 1st, will find out if my nut theory has validity. Just felt motivated to purchase a 9k/7k running 120v/240v generator. Are many available today but if Duke Power takes a dump, I do not sleep well in the summer without AC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I just paid $500 more than seller was asking for a 1970 Chevelle SS. It needs a full restoration. Not the 1st time I've paid more to get what I thought was too good of a deal. Sometimes it works out, others not so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Ed Luddy said:

Well I just paid $500 more than seller was asking for a 1970 Chevelle SS. It needs a full restoration. Not the 1st time I've paid more to get what I thought was too good of a deal. Sometimes it works out, others not so much.

 

I have this great memory of sitting on my front porch (maybe 1979?) and this 71 SS Yellow with black stripes rumbled by.   It had the painted wheels so it I think 71.  After that I always wanted one.

 

20 years ago my dad and I were standing in the prep tent for BJ where they funneled them to the stage.   Sitting there was a 70 Fathom Blue on white LS6 4 speed vert.   Copies of the build sheet,  dealer invoice, blah, blah, blah.  I looked at my dad and said I really want this but will only go to X dollars (and it was decent amount of money back then).    I'm thinking I have a 50/50 shot,   and my dad starts giving me a ration of you know what.   "That is a lot of money, what are you gonna do with that", etc, etc.

 

Car sold for 2.5 times my limit.   That was the day I learned to never buy a car at BJ.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just noticed this topic, already two pages. The first thing I did was scroll through as I looked at the icons to the left, smiling, and confident I know where this one is going. I am just wrapping up to be busy for the rest of the day. I am looking forward to matching the the replies with my preconceived idea of the comments.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...