Have you replaced your torque ball seal?

[Matt Harwood]

If so, how did it go? The torque ball on the Limited is getting a bit drippier than I'd prefer and I'm kind of thinking of going after it myself. Good idea or mistake? Should I just pay Doug Seybold to do it next winter? How'd it go when you did yours? Experiences good and bad much appreciated!

 

Thanks!

[avgwarhawk]

I have removed torque tube assemblies four times.  It's a bit involved but I can have the entire assembly out in 30-45 minutes. Practice makes perfect.  Further, I did not need a come-along or anything to separate the assembly from the Dynaflow and manual transmission.  Level assembly to the tail of the transmission and she'll separate without much fanfare.  

 

Order up a vulcanized torque ball.  No fussing with shims, etc.  Also, the manual shows guide pins when mating the torque ball to the torque tube.  Use them!  Makes life a lot easier.  Also keeps from buggering up the torque tube seal which I did when not using guide pins. 

 

To answer your question, it's not a hard job. I performed my four ventures into removing and reinstalling the torque tube assemblies by myself. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

 

Removed to replace a bad u-joint.  Torque ball was good. Used same when reassembled.

Edited May 2, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[61polara]

Matt,

I put the car on four jack stands on the frame to get it high enough to get under it on a creeper.  Disconnect the rear sway bar from the real axle.  Wrap a come-along around the rear axle and attach the other end to something stationary.  I used the trailer hitch on another vehicle.  Unbolt the torque tube from the transmission and pull it back with the come-along.  You can then get to the seal and replace it.  I've pulled transmissions, replaced seals and throw out bearings this way.

 

[avgwarhawk]

I have not needed a come along at any time.  The pinion housing supported by a wheeled jack and level to the transmission.  One or two solid pulls and they ends separate as the entire assembly rolls rearward on my wheeled jack. For me the key is level torque tube assembly to the transmission.  This requires removing the coil springs and wheels. No binding where each end meet.

Edited May 2, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[gdmn852]

Hello I had to replace the rear differential in mine , the biggest part of the job was getting the car up high enough to roll the rear out , however you may be able to just move the rear back after removing shock links , and use the vulcanite seal one as mentioned in above post , I was planning to change mine but it had been replaced by the previous owner and was still sealing.Remember if you remove the springs lower mount they are left handed thread .Good luck.Gary

[gdmn852]

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Matt, as you can see, different opinions from different folks. I personally like to remove the rear end completely.  Some of these folks mentioned a vulcanized kit. This is  seal vulcanized into the outer retainer. I have never found one for the standard transmission. Dynaflow only. Different flange size.

 

  If that sucker is not leaking enough to require topping up the transmission oil level every few hundred miles, LIVE WITH IT.   Can you say "can of worms"?

 

  Ben

[avgwarhawk]

My 54 manual has a vulcanized seal. It  was installed before I owned the 54.  I do not know where the previous owner purchased or had it vulcanized.  I have remove the manual twice for work.  The seal still seals without issue.  No shims required for proper sealing. 

[avgwarhawk]

As Gary pointed out, remove the coil springs.  Left-hand threads driver's side top and bottom mount.  Removing the coil springs and wheels allows free movement of the assembly up and down using a wheeled floor jack under the rear axle.  This will allow you to level the entire assembly to the rear of the transmission so there is no binding at the torque ball.  A solid tug on the entire assembly it should separate and roll free rearward on the wheeled floor jack.  I then put on my wheeled carts as shown above and roll it out from under.  Removing completely is not necessary. I have simply separted, installed a torque tube seal and pushed back together. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

My 54 manual has a vulcanized seal. It  was installed before I owned the 54.  I do not know where the previous owner purchased or had it vulcanized.  I have remove the manual twice for work.  The seal still seals without issue.  No shims required for proper sealing. 

 

 Well, dang! I could not find one for the '50. Was TOLD the Dynaflow is different. Mayhaps should have bought on to see. 

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

I can't find a picture but I put a set of bare rims (no tires) on the rear end to roll it under the car. That helped by giving lots of wiggle room.

 

For guide pins I just cut the heads off a couple of hardware store bolts and hacksawed a slot in the end. They worked fine.

[old-tank]

19 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

If so, how did it go? The torque ball on the Limited is getting a bit drippier than I'd prefer and I'm kind of thinking of going after it myself. Good idea or mistake? Should I just pay Doug Seybold to do it next winter? How'd it go when you did yours? Experiences good and bad much appreciated!

 

Thanks!

Lots of good advice!  But that  Limited may have some "unique engineering" that may not translate to later years.  Consult Seybold for guidance or to do the job.

Edited May 2, 2020 by old-tank (see edit history)

[neil morse]

I missed this Matt because I don't usually check this forum.  If you look on my "Me and My Buick" thread, there's quite a detailed discussion of the torque ball seal replacement. I did it with the transmission removed.  I think doing it with the transmission in place would be a challenge, although I didn't have a lift, of course. 

 

The kit from Bob's comes with a rubber seal instead of a cork one, but you still have to deal with the paper shims.  That's explained in my thread.  Just PM me if you have any questions and I will try to answer them.

 

Neil

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by neil morse (see edit history)

[neil morse]

7 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Left-hand threads driver's side top and bottom mount. 

 

On the '41, the threads are left-hand on the bottom and right hand on top, both sides.  You only need to remove the keepers on the bottom, of course.  But they will both be left-handed so beware!  (As you will see if you check my thread, a previous owner had stripped the left-handed threads on one side on my car -- something we fixed when I did my transmission job.)

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, neil morse said:

 

On the '41, the threads are left-hand on the bottom and right hand on top, both sides.  You only need to remove the keepers on the bottom, of course.  But they will both be left-handed so beware!  (As you will see if you check my thread, a previous owner had stripped the left-handed threads on one side on my car -- something we fixed when I did my transmission job.)

 

I remove the entire coil assemblies.  In doing so I'm free to lift the entire axle into the wells allowing level drive train, no binding at the ball and do not need a come along to separate. 

[avgwarhawk]

6 hours ago, old-tank said:

Lots of good advice!  But that  Limited may have some "unique engineering" that may not translate to later years.  Consult Seybold for guidance or to do the job.

 

Very true. The 60 has a large spline at the torque ball end that must line up or the two u-joints will be out of synch. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[neil morse]

59 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

I remove the entire coil assemblies.  In doing so I'm free to lift the entire axle into the wells allowing level drive train, no binding at the ball and do not need a come along to separate. 

 

Fair enough.  I did not mean to criticize your approach.  In my case, we were removing the transmission anyway in order to rebuild it, so we used the "come along" method and rolled the rear axle back just far enough to stick the tube up over the transmission while we got the transmission out.  Then reversed the process on reassembly.

[avgwarhawk]

11 minutes ago, neil morse said:

 

Fair enough.  I did not mean to criticize your approach.  In my case, we were removing the transmission anyway in order to rebuild it, so we used the "come along" method and rolled the rear axle back just far enough to stick the tube up over the transmission while we got the transmission out.  Then reversed the process on reassembly.

 

No worries sir. Each of these Buicks has its own challenges when working on them.  I simply struggled with coils in the way.  The torque tube was not separating due to binding. I removed the coils, leveled the assembly with the transmission and pulled.  Out she came. Worked like a charm on both the 54 and 60.  You should see me on my back, torque tube on my wheeled floor jack and my leg pulling it towards the torque ball as I guide the nose of the torque tube to the torque tube with my hands. Crazy but it has worked for me!  In reality, there is nothing scary about torque tubes. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys. It sounds like a project that can be done, but I should also make sure that the Limited isn't a special one-off setup. I don't believe it is, as all the torque ball kits say that they are for 1941 ALL, but I've seen that before. However, I also believe that the engine and transmission in my Limited originally came out of a Roadmaster, so that kind of implies that the torque balls would be the same. I'll look into the vulcanized setup that was mentioned, it seems like the right choice. Hopefully it'll fit this manual transmission. I'll also review Neil's procedure.

 

And yes, most of me agrees with Ben--leave it alone if it's not critical. It isn't and I probably should!

[kgreen]

9 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

And yes, most of me agrees with Ben--leave it alone if it's not critical. It isn't and I probably should!

 

But, that doesn't mean you will.  For all you've done with your cars so far, I find it hard to believe this is outside your range of talent.  Make sure you post your typical write up.  If you find a source for the vulcanized torque ball seal, please share.

[buick5563]

For later Buicks, Steele Rubber vulcanizes your old core. I wonder if they could vulcanize one that didn’t originally come with the rubber. Might at least go straight to the source and give them a call. 
...and yes, I have changed quite a few on later Buicks including that Woody wagon that you sold that originated here in central Texas.  I did them all the time on a 2 post lift with the rear ended still in the car. 

[Bill Meginley]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:05 PM, avgwarhawk said:

I have removed torque tube assemblies four times.  It's a bit involved but I can have the entire assembly out in 30-45 minutes. Practice makes perfect.  Further, I did not need a come-along or anything to separate the assembly from the Dynaflow and manual transmission.  Level assembly to the tail of the transmission and she'll separate without much fanfare.  

 

Order up a vulcanized torque ball.  No fussing with shims, etc.  Also, the manual shows guide pins when mating the torque ball to the torque tube.  Use them!  Makes life a lot easier.  Also keeps from buggering up the torque tube seal which I did when not using guide pins. 

 

To answer your question, it's not a hard job. I performed my four ventures into removing and reinstalling the torque tube assemblies by myself. 

Where do you buy a Vulcanized BALL or did you mean Torque Ball Retainer with Bonded Vulcanized Rubber???

[avgwarhawk]

5 minutes ago, Bill Meginley said:

Where do you buy a Vulcanized BALL or did you mean Torque Ball Retainer with Bonded Vulcanized Rubber???

My Buick had a vulcanized torque ball retainer installed by the previous owner.  I did not need to buy one.  Reused it several times.  I believe Oldbuickparts.com has what you need.   

[Bill Meginley]

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

My Buick had a vulcanized torque ball retainer installed by the previous owner.  I did not need to buy one.  Reused it several times.  I believe Oldbuickparts.com has what you need.   

You missed my question you called it a VULCANIZED TORQUE BALL so I am confirming you meant the retainer and they also don't make some sorta Vulcanized Torque Ball ITSELF? 

[EmTee]

The TB assembly for the '38 isn't vulcanized.  It needs to be shimmed during assembly.  Here's a link to Neil's thread where he documents the replacement on his '41.  https://forums.aaca.org/topic/300994-neils-41-super-model-51/page/7/#comment-1997899

[Justinlb]

11 hours ago, EmTee said:

The TB assembly for the '38 isn't vulcanized.  It needs to be shimmed during assembly.  Here's a link to Neil's thread where he documents the replacement on his '41.  https://forums.aaca.org/topic/300994-neils-41-super-model-51/page/7/#comment-1997899

I can vouch for those instructions on the torque ball, no leaks or issues since I've repaired my torque ball. I daily drive my Buick.

[EmTee]

3 hours ago, Justinlb said:

...no leaks or issues since I've repaired my torque ball.

When did you do yours?

[markewebb '39 Buick Team]

On 7/11/2022 at 12:49 PM, Bill Meginley said:

Where do you buy a Vulcanized BALL or did you mean Torque Ball Retainer with Bonded Vulcanized Rubber???

The 39 series 40-60 torque ball is covered with vulcanized rubber.  Bob's has some for that year that have been relined with vulcanized rubber.   1939 Ser.40-60 Torque Ball . TBS-39 - Bob's Automobilia (bobsautomobilia.com)

[Justinlb]

Good luck changing out the torque ball, Also disconnect the brake hose in the middle, I broke mine in the process. Only pulled the axle back just far enough to clear the transmission too.

On 7/12/2022 at 5:46 AM, EmTee said:

When did you do yours?

In March. Many miles put on it since, I also drive it like It's stolen. best way to put the parts to the test.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Justinlb (see edit history)

[HurricaneCurt]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:05 PM, avgwarhawk said:

I have removed torque tube assemblies four times.  It's a bit involved but I can have the entire assembly out in 30-45 minutes. Practice makes perfect.  Further, I did not need a come-along or anything to separate the assembly from the Dynaflow and manual transmission.  Level assembly to the tail of the transmission and she'll separate without much fanfare.  

 

Order up a vulcanized torque ball.  No fussing with shims, etc.  Also, the manual shows guide pins when mating the torque ball to the torque tube.  Use them!  Makes life a lot easier.  Also keeps from buggering up the torque tube seal which I did when not using guide pins. 

 

To answer your question, it's not a hard job. I performed my four ventures into removing and reinstalling the torque tube assemblies by myself. 

Since you seem to be the expert on torque balls, lol, I have a question. Which side of the seal does the spring go? On the transmission side or the torque tube side? We found a diagram with it showing on the transmission side, but when we took it apart it was in the torque tube side of the retainer.

[avgwarhawk]

The spring side of the seal goes towards the transmission.  In this position it holds the transmission fluid in the transmission. When you reassemble use the guide pins as shown in the manual. I used bolts with the heads cut off.  This really helps from buggering up the seal. Had to do a seal over again with being careless with reassembly. 

Edited March 9 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[IFDPete]

No room for a lift in my garage so I bought a used a Quick Jack system and lifted my 1949 Super Sedan (Dynaflow) up about 8 years ago to replace my torque ball seal.  The project went well and took me some time.  I was pleased with the Quick Jack giving me a safe lift and good room to work. Also that I had free space between the lift rails to work and roll with a creeper.  Pulled the rear axle off the car and also replaced the original rear differential (4.45) for a 3.4x from a 53 Buick.  It dropped my engine rpm about 25% for better highway cruising and MPG.

 

Prior to that lift system purchase I would lift the car up on 4 jack stands to work underneath.  Getting it up on the first two stands was easy - but lifting the other end up for jack stands 3 and 4 always made me wary and nervous.  The Quick Jack is indeed quick... and safe.

 

As far as the seal goes...The leak is better (slower) but mine still leaks so I probably did something wrong.  I have not gotten around to taking it apart and trying again.  I just empty the Cool Whip cup that sits under it about every 2 or 3 months. 

 

I am thinking that Dynaflow refers to the flow of trans fluid into the cup or on the floor. 

 

Edited March 10 by IFDPete
wording (see edit history)

[Lawrence Helfand]

Did mine a few years back on my 41 66S . First attempt was a rubber seal which leaked and then back to the original tried and true long lasting cork with shims which seems fine with only an occasional drip spot which is fine by me.