What's your "white whale"?

[8E45E]

2 hours ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Octoauto with more unsprung weight than anybody could ever want:

 

This 8-wheeler 1927 Atwater carries a few more passengers

 

[zepher]

1 hour ago, gossp said:

I would be happy with a 80 point pre-J at the same money. 

 

Back in the mid 60's, not too long after my Grandfather had purchased the Pierce Arrow, he ran across a Duesenberg Model A for sale.

The price was very, very reasonable and the car was only a few miles from his place.

He went home to discuss buying the car with my Grandmother and she told him, 'You already have one old car you don't need another'.

So to keep the peace he passed on the deal and didn't let my Dad or my Uncles know about the car until weeks later.

It had been sold by then.

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

12 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

And he piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it.

 

This is my all-time favorite quote and my personal creedo. All about obsession and fury and unreachable goals. Beware the white whales.

 

Matt, I, too, have spent most of my life dealing with the public.

[Bush Mechanic]

Mine has always been the Invicta S Type Low Chassis Coupe.

 

Fast continental touring and sports racing car par excellence.  I read an article in a sports car magazine about 60 years ago, regarding a high speed dash across Europe in  a 30 year old Invicta, and I was hooked, although I have yet to see one in real life. Most of the 77 coupes and drop heads built between 1930-1934 are still out there, many of them still competing in historic racing events. 4.5 litre Meadows engine, in an under-slung chassis, with mostly bespoke coachwork. Their downfall was the high price tag, which kept production numbers down.

[58L-Y8]

A 1920 ReVere touring appeared at Hershey in the early 2000's, offered by Hyman, Ltd.

[alsancle]

11 hours ago, gossp said:

I would be happy with a 80 point pre-J at the same money. 

 

The thing about Duesenbergs (Model J) is that when the market corrects,  they never correct as much.   So everything else is going to take a 50% hair cut,  but you will only see the J prices come down 10-20 percent.    I guess because there are lots of guys waiting in line for a reasonably priced Duesenberg.

[Walt G]

A.J. that white R-R that you  would love to own you probably would not be comfortable at all driving. Same body as a Franklin "Pirate" series of body styles that had two capacities - 5 and  7 passenger. with non adjustable front seat. We have met in person and you are to tall to drive one. The only Pirate body style I have driven that was comfortable was a sedan , one of two sedans built and I was amazed that I actually could fit behind the wheel with no back ache due to lack of room.

Walt

[gossp]

47 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

The thing about Duesenbergs (Model J) is that when the market corrects,  they never correct as much.   So everything else is going to take a 50% hair cut,  but you will only see the J prices come down 10-20 percent.    I guess because there are lots of guys waiting in line for a reasonably priced Duesenberg.

I think the percentages are off but the moral of the story is true. My Duesenberg preference would actually be an A or X, I have always liked that era of car more for driving.   If I were taking my pick in the big fancy later part of the Classic era, it would be for a pierce 12 with an overdrive. I don’t think it would bother me if it were a bastard with a fire truck engine. I really need to get behind the wheel of one of the later 8cyl pierces, they might be more than enough to make me happy. 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, gossp said:

I think the percentages are off but the moral of the story is true. My Duesenberg preference would actually be an A or X, I have always liked that era of car more for driving.   If I were taking my pick in the big fancy later part of the Classic era, it would be for a pierce 12 with an overdrive. I don’t think it would bother me if it were a bastard with a fire truck engine. I really need to get behind the wheel of one of the later 8cyl pierces, they might be more than enough to make me happy. 

 

The Pierce 12 with a decent axle ratio doesn't need the overdrive,  but the later cars that have it (36 and above) will stick with a Model J up to around 90mph.   They are wonderful and I think will be available as long as you don't want one of the unobtanium convertible coupes.    I think the eight does just fine too.

[alsancle]

16 minutes ago, Walt G said:

A.J. that white R-R that you  would love to own you probably would not be comfortable at all driving. Same body as a Franklin "Pirate" series of body styles that had two capacities - 5 and  7 passenger. with non adjustable front seat. We have met in person and you are to tall to drive one. The only Pirate body style I have driven that was comfortable was a sedan , one of two sedans built and I was amazed that I actually could fit behind the wheel with no back ache due to lack of room.

Walt

 

Good point Walt,  except I typically don't drive my stuff anywhere near enough.  Maybe we can take some stuffing out of the seats and make it work?

[gossp]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

 

The Pierce 12 with a decent axle ratio doesn't need the overdrive,  but the later cars that have it (36 and above) will stick with a Model J up to around 90mph.   They are wonderful and I think will be available as long as you don't want one of the unobtanium convertible coupes.    I think the eight does just fine too.

I have driven one at 90 mph!  The quickest drive to Hershey ever... even with a rather large number of fuel stops.  By the time we got to Hershey the tread was flying off the tires. Good thing Universal is just down the isle from us... it went home on new rubber. 

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

lots of guys waiting in line for a reasonably priced Duesenberg.

Made me smile reading this comment. I have two friends in the line for a “good, well done, rebody, that needs nothing, and is cheap”
 

As far as the missing or elusive car, the Richelieu I only saw it very briefly tucked away in a warehouse packed in with a bunch of other very strange and unusual cars. The entire collection was locked down tight as a drum, and the only reason I was allowed to peek at some of the stuff was I was delivering a non running car and had to help push it in the building. The entire place was filled with stuff I had only seen photos of, and never in person. The extremely weird and obscure. I was sworn to never say anything about the building’s contents, and the location. While I only have a very quick look at it, I didn’t think too much about it. Looked like an assembled car and while fairly large for the time, it wasn’t attractive and rather vertical in it’s stature and presentation. I was much more Intrested in seeing all the other cars parked next to it..........think of stuff you only see at Neathercutt or similar collections. Of everything In the building, I only have seen one of them out and about(from 15 or more years ago)....a one off Model J. I know for certain one others is now at the Pyramids. The legend of the “White Whale” is nothing compared to the deep dark abyss that eats cars seemingly forever. There are probably 15 collections around the world that could be described as a “black hole”. I have made it into a small portion of one of them. I saw a bunch of Pierce Arrow’s that I didn’t even know existed. I have also heard of another Richelieu, but I suspect it is the same car, and that was ten years later and came from an absolute reliable source. Maybe it has changed hands.
 

There is a “new” black hole collection being assembled right now in the US. Great cars keep disappearing into it, and I can only confirm the state it is located in. I can’t even get a phone number or email from anyone to try and gain access. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

25 minutes ago, gossp said:

I have driven one at 90 mph!  The quickest drive to Hershey ever... even with a rather large number of fuel stops.  By the time we got to Hershey the tread was flying off the tires. Good thing Universal is just down the isle from us... it went home on new rubber. 

A late model Pierce 12 with the overdrive Is one of the very few stock cars that will run with a J. But to keep up with it it will burn fuel like you can’t believe..

[John_Mereness]

26 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Good point Walt,  except I typically don't drive my stuff anywhere near enough.  Maybe we can take some stuffing out of the seats and make it work?

If I recall it was not horrible - I want to say that the pedals were at a little better angle on the floor matched to maybe a 1' smaller diameter steering wheel - you still sat low in it though with chin st door windowsill and eyes trying to figure out how to get good visibility - whole right side and left rear of the car near impossible to see out of.

[gossp]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

A late model Pierce 12 with the overdrive Is one of the very few stock cars that will run with a J. But to keep up with it it will burn fuel like you can’t believe..

I can believe. 
 

Although I have never had the hunger for a J that a lot of people have, it would be fun to really run one!  I have driven a town car at speeds similar to a brass era tour. It’s nice to be able to say I drove one, but I really have no idea what it is like to drive one. 

[John_Mereness]

58 minutes ago, edinmass said:

A late model Pierce 12 with the overdrive Is one of the very few stock cars that will run with a J. But to keep up with it it will burn fuel like you can’t believe..

Often overlooked: a Franklin V-12 is pretty impressive on the road-  150 HP with good gearing and a Columbia too, but still a very large and heavy car.

 

Ed, how does a Marmon V-16 compare to a Duesenberg (guessing gearing is the issue) ?

 

And, how does a Stutz DV-32 compare (also guessing gearing is the issue) ?

Edited April 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

5 hours ago, Bush Mechanic said:

Mine has always been the Invicta S Type Low Chassis Coupe.

 

Fast continental touring and sports racing car par excellence.  I read an article in a sports car magazine about 60 years ago, regarding a high speed dash across Europe in  a 30 year old Invicta, and I was hooked, although I have yet to see one in real life. Most of the 77 coupes and drop heads built between 1930-1934 are still out there, many of them still competing in historic racing events. 4.5 litre Meadows engine, in an under-slung chassis, with mostly bespoke coachwork. Their downfall was the high price tag, which kept production numbers down.

 

WOW! I never knew that car existed, sure would make a great garage mate for a 1933 Riley IMP. Bob 

Edited April 18, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

Made me smile reading this comment. I have two friends in the line for a “good, well done, rebody, that needs nothing, and is cheap”

I know a lot of people that get that into to their head and they ultimately have ended up with nothing - while they may be "planning", someone else's impulse will get it before them.  

 

Sort of funny too - of all the people I know that put on Concours they will tell you one of the toughest display has been ACD with various reasons, but a few that come up is that the percentage of really well restored cars in A, or C, or D is pretty rare - lots of older done stuff, heavily toured, parked in backs of garages near buried, many falling short on maintenance, and .... My point being "needs nothing and cheap" rarely go hand-in-hand. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

13 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

I've never seen a Gaz. 

I had a radiator ornament/badge for a GAZ - took me a good long while to figure out what it was as it was mixed into a bunch of british badges. 

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

The thing about Duesenbergs (Model J) is that when the market corrects,  they never correct as much.   So everything else is going to take a 50% hair cut,  but you will only see the J prices come down 10-20 percent.    I guess because there are lots of guys waiting in line for a reasonably priced Duesenberg.

Equally, when the market has dropped the good ACD cars still have stayed hidden (aka people have decided to wait it out) and/or traded hands privately - you rarely buy an ACD car in public.  I tend to see the public sales via estates when moving multiple cars, when you have an owner that wants to try to speculate (ie cannot figure out its sale value), they get begged by auction companies (which tends to be a little harder these days as lots more auction space competition), and/or cars are screwed up via whatever reason. 

[edinmass]

22 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Often overlooked: a Franklin V-12 is pretty impressive on the road-  150 HP with good gearing and a Columbia too, but still a very large and heavy car.

 

Ed, how does a Marmon V-16 compare to a Duesenberg (guessing geaing is the issue) ?

 

And, how does a Stutz DV-32 compare (also guessing geaing is the issue) ?

Franklin 12’s are so few and I have never seen one run on the open road. I can’t comment on how they are, but I am sure they are above average for their time. Marmon 16 are great road cars, and with long gears are certainly at the very top of the list. The DV-32 is fantastically fast if properly set up, but fall flat on the hills with such a small engine. You have to pound the hell out of a well done Pierce 12 to run it along side a J. And the J will still out pull it at all times under all conditions. (My 12 is very worked over across the board, and making 225 hp) A perfectly set up J will still walk away from everything else, I enjoy great platforms that have been warmed up and set up well. All the other cars that approach the J will be working hard........harder than most people want to drive their cars. The only stock pre war car that will do everything you ask of it, at all times, safely and in stock condition is a J. It’s one of the few things in the world that live up to their reputation. 

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

There is a “new” black hole collection being assembled right now in the US. Great cars keep disappearing into it, and I can only confirm the state it is located in. I can’t even get a phone number or email from anyone to try and gain access. 

A friends 1925 RR PI Mulliner Touring went to a "internet" based company founder who built a Garage Mahal - he bought a good two dozen really "strong" cars over a year period filling his Mahal - he does not drive stick shift, he does not show, he asked how to prepare the car best for 40 year storage, and .... - and he bought them as his broker told him that was where they were putting some of the money = you probably are not going to see those cars in a good long while.

 

My 1932 RR PI went to China - you may perhaps never see it again (I only showed it once  at the Dayton Concours d'Elegance and prior to me I bet 10 people had seen it in 16 years, prior to that it was shown a couple of times at larger events upon being restored in early 1970's - then sat quietly in the dark for the next 16 years, prior to that it was buried for 25 years in the garage for State of Kentucky Governor's mansion making a few rare appearances.

 

We have several  "black hole" collections here in Cincinnati area too - one I do not think a single person in town has ever been in - he does bring Bill Warner a car to Amelia Island periodically, one is exotic sports cars and he will bring a Ferrari down to Florida once a year and often same car gets left in trailer for Amelia Island, one is exotic and race cars and will also bring cars to Amelia Island/Pebble beach/and allows us to have Concours events at their home every couple of years, one few people see the cars outside of major concours events, and one is largely post war and he just started collecting via sale of his business.

Edited April 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[zepher]

Just curious, how many here have seen, much less ridden in or driven a Rickenbacker?

 

As I said, I may already own a white whale.

[keiser31]

2 minutes ago, zepher said:

Just curious, how many here have seen, much less ridden in or driven a Rickenbacker?

 

As I said, I may already own a white whale.

Seen a few in person. Never rode in one. Sold an n.o.s. radiator emblem a while back.

Edited April 18, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Modeleh]

12 minutes ago, zepher said:

Just curious, how many here have seen, much less ridden in or driven a Rickenbacker?

 

As I said, I may already own a white whale.

There is one at the museum in Winthrop, Washington.  What a cool place with lots of nice original condition artifacts.

[jeff_a]

On 4/17/2020 at 6:20 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

Never have I yet seen a 1960 Edsel Ranger four door hardtop, neither Standard (57A) 104 built or Deluxe (57B) 31 produced.  I have seen the station wagon and all other styles.

Never have I yet seen a 1958-'60 Ambassador four door hardtop station wagon.

Others will come to mind over the week, we keep a mental list to check off.

Not exactly what you were looking for...but all 1960 Edsels are rare at around 2% of Edsel production(kind of an afterthought). I used to see this one in Glendive every year, on my way to vacation in the Williston, ND area, for sale in a lot next to the highway.

Edited April 19, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

The 1958 Edsel Station Wagon had a great taill light for custom cars.   As the Edsel rusted away, the tail lights live forever on modified cars.

Check em out:  https://www.google.com/search?q=1958+edsel+station+wagon+tail+lights&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=YAbez8Nk4NGcfM%3A%2CqpzFsn5hN50n0M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTWWPu0xo2BoYPr07EeIkvlOt1lbA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3kvvyv_LoAhUnm-AKHcrTDS8Q9QEwCnoECAoQJg#imgrc=FNQyn1f87badAM

[58L-Y8]

17 minutes ago, jeff_a said:

Not exactly what you were looking for...but all 1960 Edsels are rare at around 2% of production. I used to see this one in Glendive every year, on my way to vacation in the Williston, ND area, for sale in a lot next to the highway.

Yes, the '60 Edsel four door sedans turn up quite often.  After all, that was the highest production model.  As a kid I used to see a portly older fellow who drove a medium-pea green '60 Edsel four door sedan who was nicknamed "Ducky" Beardsley!   As in "There goes Ducky in his '60 Edsel..."

[CHuDWah]

17 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

...I've never seen a Gaz...

 

 

GAZ started via contract between the Soviet Union and Ford - basically a Russian-built Model A.

 

[John_Mereness]

For AJ - I knew I had photos of this around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And a 1930's photo:

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

AJ will love all the photos, he has been longing after this one for a while.............but it’s well hidden away. AJ keeps going through phases................ a Pierce, three window coupe, Stanley, he’s always chasing the strange, obscure, and weird. Knowing him he’s chasing something else now.........he hasn’t pulled a trigger on a car in years. I think he’s getting gun shy in his old age. 🤔

[58L-Y8]

Hey, AJ has the ultimate in 'white whales' in my book: the REO Royale Dietrich sport sedan.    The master design work of two of the giants, Amos Northup and Ray Dietrich, plus its an early example of the nascent 3-box sedan configuration that wouldn't see volume production until young Bill Mitchell developed the sporty LaSalle sedan that became the '38 Cadillac 60 Special.   

[John_Mereness]

31 minutes ago, edinmass said:

AJ will love all the photos, he has been longing after this one for a while.............but it’s well hidden away. AJ keeps going through phases................ a Pierce, three window coupe, Stanley, he’s always chasing the strange, obscure, and weird. Knowing him he’s chasing something else now.........he hasn’t pulled a trigger on a car in years. I think he’s getting gun shy in his old age. 🤔

 

 

Sidenote: The cars in the background of the RR are great too - A 1939 Aston Martin Boattail and behind it the 1934 MGNA of Doreen Evans BLL492 , Bugatti kids car, Cooper, 1908 Isotta Fraschini, Regal Underslung (bought later by the Peterson's), Allard, FWD Indy car, & Lotus Elan 

Edited April 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Hey, AJ has the ultimate in 'white whales' in my book: the REO Royale Dietrich sport sedan.    The master design work of two of the giants, Amos Northup and Ray Dietrich, plus its an early example of the nascent 3-box sedan configuration that wouldn't see volume production until young Bill Mitchell developed the sporty LaSalle sedan that became the '38 Cadillac 60 Special.   

 

I can think of a handful of other white elephants that AJ wants to own.........maybe I can bust his chops enough to get him to actually buy something for a change....💰💰💰       AJ, pry your wallet open with a crow bar ⛏ and buy something before we all die from boredom! 

Edited April 18, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[ericmac]

7 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Good point Walt,  except I typically don't drive my stuff anywhere near enough.  Maybe we can take some stuffing out of the seats and make it work?

I also have driven a Pirate convertible sedan and agree with Walt. You feel like the car is a shrink to fit and once you wedge yourself in there, you certainly can't see out. I have driven one of the Pirate style sedans, the Walker, and it was much more comfortable in every respect.  Conversely, a factory bodied 137 or 147 is a pretty darn good big man's car. 

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, ericmac said:

I also have driven a Pirate convertible sedan and agree with Walt. You feel like the car is a shrink to fit and once you wedge yourself in there, you certainly can't see out. I have driven one of the Pirate style sedans, the Walker, and it was much more comfortable in every respect.  Conversely, a factory bodied 137 or 147 is a pretty darn good big man's car. 

 

The wheelbase on the Silver Ghost (RR we are discussing) is 143.5 so it may be a bit longer under the cowl than the Franklin.

[Walt G]

7 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

If I recall it was not horrible - I want to say that the pedals were at a little better angle on the floor matched to maybe a 1' smaller diameter steering wheel - you still sat low in it though with chin st door windowsill and eyes trying to figure out how to get good visibility - whole right side and left rear of the car near impossible to see out of.

We all define 'not horrible' in our own way.😀 I had a friend that owned a Franklin 5 pass. Pirate ,one that needed to be restored, and have driven both 5 and 7 passenger versions. Still for me if you have long legs and are at least 6 feet tall the lower back ache especially at the hip area was beyond what I could stand.

In regards to the Rickenbacker cars , there was one here on long island 35-40 or more years ago out in eastern long island owned by a fellow named Bob Diefenbach ( not sure I spelled that correctly) . It was a sedan and he did a decent restoration on it ( for the era) and a fairly original car too. I had the opportunity to ride in it and drive it a short distance and it was ok but nothing I recall that was really different then any other orphan make of the same era.

My own immediate choice to have the opportunity to own or even drive for some distance would be a Studebaker land Cruiser sedan from the 1934-36 era. Just love the styling - Studebaker's version of the Pierce Silver Arrow. I first saw one at night heading east on Rt. 422 in Hershey, Pa. circa 1967 .I was in the rear seat of my parents 1960 Plymouth Fury III station wagon and we were on our way to attend the banquet of the Plymouth 4 Cylinder Owners Club ( later to become the Plymouth 4 & 6 Cylinder Owners Club then just the Plymouth Owners Club) . A 1935 Studebaker Land Cruiser pulled up next to us, dark green with wide white tires on it and with the lights of the stores reflecting off the paint of the car it just looked amazing. Several years later I had a ride in a 1932 Studebaker President sedan and was very impressed. The other car I would like to own is currently owned by a good friend near by - Howard Kroplick owns the 1937 Chrysler Imperial town car built for Della Chrysler . I love that car, and with the Chrysler straight 8 with Overdrive and 4 inches added to the wheelbase it is just totally amazing. I had the opportunity of seeing it restored every step of the way when that was done by Steve Babinsky . Some really cool built factors done when it was done in 1937. Neat to see it in pieces . Besides I was there when we hauled it out of the basement of a museum here on long island up a steep hill on the end of a tow chain which fortunately was strong enough to keep the heavy car in tow and not break ( if it had the car would have gone backwards through 200 plus feet of trees and wound up in long island sound under water)

[nzcarnerd]

6 hours ago, zepher said:

Just curious, how many here have seen, much less ridden in or driven a Rickenbacker?

 

As I said, I may already own a white whale.

 

There was red roadster here in NXZ for many years - probably the only surviving right hand drive example?? After its owner's death I don't know what happened to it. I haven't seen it for many years.

 

I found this 2015 article which suggests it is still with the family of the last owner.

 

https://themotorhood.com/themotorhood/2015/1/16/rare-1924-rickenbacker-to-appear-at-warbirds-wheels

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

5 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Yes, the '60 Edsel four door sedans turn up quite often.  After all, that was the highest production model.  As a kid I used to see a portly older fellow who drove a medium-pea green '60 Edsel four door sedan who was nicknamed "Ducky" Beardsley!   As in "There goes Ducky in his '60 Edsel..."

 

A trickle of Edsels have found their way to NZ over the years. This '60 wagon would be one of the rare ones. One of three '60 Edsels in NZ according to the registration records - at least the ones that are registered as "Ford Edsels".

 

 

[keiser31]

24 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

 

There was red roadster here in NXZ for many years - probably the only surviving right hand drive example?? After its owner's death I don't know what happened to it. I haven't seen it for many years.

 

I found this 2015 article which suggests it is still with the family of the last owner.

 

https://themotorhood.com/themotorhood/2015/1/16/rare-1924-rickenbacker-to-appear-at-warbirds-wheels

 

 

Love the heart-shaped design on the headlight bezels.