jeff53

direction of spin

Recommended Posts

Padgett- I've read all the threads--- and  I've had my car since '74. I know I can run along side of it to push start it, jump it with a 12 volt. I can rewiring almost blind folded, I can hot wire it or bypass the ignition switch, I can take the starter out and bench test it and put on a new push button on top of the starter. I can do all that- Again what I don't know- is IS it possible to bypass the Starter- Even when you jump it with another battery whether it's a 12 volt or a 6 volt- there's always a Starter.  I was just wondering ---Can you  start the engine- without the STARTER..... It seems the answer is NO.

    Heck as most of you know- this car a person can start it and even remove the battery and it will still run. My question has gotten turned around- so let's move on, I'll simply take out the starter and test it.

   I wouldn't even be asking this question if I could find a local mechanic - I could trust. Heck I be trying since 2017 just to get a cheap ass earl scheib type paint job... 2017 I took it to a shop to have 5 things done- rebuild or replace- the fuel pump and carb. Do a "complete" tune -up  and change all fluid oil and trans.- and then maybe paint a cheap- scuff up the existing paint- and paint. Well 5 months later I got the car back with the exact same spark plugs and wires, my house is a mile from the shop- but from some reason all the engine oil was almost black- and carb. was painted. The shop didn't give me any records or a decent itemized bill- we ended up in court- and all that stuff has to be redone.  However getting to the reason for my question to begin with ---- The shop said they " set the timing"-- and last I noticed- it looked like the fan was running in reverse-Hence I looked on line- and it said a car could or might run in reverse if the timing is to far advanced ( whatever that means). This time when I went to start it- nothing not even a click--- an I was just trying to AVOID taking out the starter and bench testing it. And the car still isn't painted after another person started on it in sections in 2018. Hood/trunk lid and 4 doors are primed tho--- cost me a lot seeing how those pieces I took down to the metal and there was very little rust and minor body work just on the trunk lid . So now it's up to me to learn to do a decent  paint paint job.

      Again thanks for all the replies- nuff whining. starter comes off

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK to begin with a starter CANNOT turn the engine in reverse, the Bendix clutch only operates in one direction. Could reverse the starter wiring and IT will turn backwards but will never engage the ring gear. A counter-rotating marine or aircraft engine requires a reverse clutch as well as different wiring and a different cam.

 

Agree if are under a fuorescent light it can look like it is turning backwards (strobe effect).

 

Back in the day you could start and engine "on the spark" but was different. Now an engine waaay out of time might fire in reverse. Once and on any charge already in the cyl but will not run more than a few revolutions (see cam timing).

 

Also a 2 stroke engine (SAAB, DKW) can run backwards under the right conditions but not a four stroke engine.

 

All that said I've set timing in an emergency (assuming the distributor wiring is correct) using the finger over #1 plug hole method to find TDC ($15 borescope helps) and make a guesstimate of about 8 BTDC just to get started, then adjust by ear until a scope is available. Personally would avoid that shop if at all possible

 

Now where do you need some help ?

 

BTW I've gotten an engine to turn and fire a little (not long) with a quarter.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely not recommended with modern starters with permanent magnets inside,  but get a person to hold the starter button on and tap the starter main housing with a hammer. Often the brushes have jammed with gunk in their holders. If that works you will still definitely need to remove it; or always carry a hammer with you! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could start the engine by jacking the rear wheels off the ground and turning them while in gear. Not easy but can be done. Make sure it's VERY safe to do so before attempting this.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the more confusing posts I've responded to. 

Jeff, I'm not sure what you mean by "by-passing" the starter. If you mean not use the starter to start the car, that's easy enough. Turn on the ignition key but don't press the starter pedal. If you don't use the starter though, I'm not sure what will turn over the engine.

GM trucks still had a place for a crank up until the early 50's, but I doubt your car has provision for that. 

Your starter is probably fine. It's not getting power because the contactor on top of it is probably bad. 

 

The ignition circuit operates from your key. It is totally separate from your starter circuit. If you turn on the key, or if you "hot-wire" the ignition, the engine is then ready to fire and run. But it won't do that until you spin it, and that's what the starter and foot pedal does.

This car has no solenoid and has no Bendix drive. 

 

In later models, the ignition key also incorporated a circuit to activate the starter, with solenoid, Bendix, etc. Most of your respondents assumed that's what you had, hence the confusion.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeff, you ask how to by-pass the starter. If you were able to push start the car, we can assume that it has a manual transmission. As Maok mentioned earlier, you can often start a manual transmission car from the back wheel. But this may be difficult, due to you age, etc. You also said that it has been idling for lengthy periods recently, so we can assume that the timing is  set accurately enough to start the car. Here is how I have accomplished it, many times.

 

1. Chock three wheels so that the car cannot roll.

 

2. Jack one rear wheel off the ground, and remove the wheel. 

 

3. Screw the wheel nuts part way back onto the studs. Make sure that the parking brake is released.

 

4. Select second gear

 

5. Turn ignition on, and set the choke.

 

6. Now, place a pinch bar or similar across/through the wheel studs, so that the handle protrudes forward of the wheel, ideally at around a 10 o'clock angle. The nuts will stop the bar from slipping off, and protect the threads

 

7. With your hands resting against the car roof, place one foot on the outer end of the bar, lean in and throw you weight sharply down on the bar. This will flick the engine over compression. The bar can fly off the studs and be a bit scary when the engine fires, but it's mostly just noise.

 

If it wasn't for this trick, my skeleton might still be bleaching out in the desert someplace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

First question, was the car running decent since you got it back? If the answer is YES then it is most likely a simple problem that can be easily fixed IF you are careful to diagnose and fix it without buggering up everything else.

If the answer is NO then there is a good chance it is already buggered up and your best shot is to recheck and adjust EVERYTHING points gap, timing, plug wires, plug gaps, possibly even carburetor.

 

It is possible to push start a car with no starter but why would you bother? It would be easiest to diagnose the problem and just fix what is wrong but if you prefer to throw parts at it until the problem goes away that works too. Takes a lot more time and money but it will work if you don't run out of time, money, parts or gumption. I can't imagine why you flat out refuse to do a few simple tests before tearing everything apart but that is your privilege.

 

Once again, if I was there I could have that motor eating out of my hand in a few hours at most, or know the reason why. I learned long ago to go very carefully and not change anything without good reason and to check and diagnose first, then fix what is wrong. Would like to help but can't do much with dopey questions like 'will a car start with no starter'. If I knew specifically what it was doing or not doing I might be able to talk you through it.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems to be in conflict: "6 volt - inline 8 ( GM) Ponty" and "This car has no solenoid and has no Bendix drive. " Since Pontiac had an inline 8 and 6 v into the 50s, I do not understand why you would think that ? I know some had no solenoid (push a lever with your foot) but all had a Bendix (what the lever moves)

 

ps Bendix had a patent in 1915 and the Pontiac inline 8 was intro'd in 1933, evidently I have missed something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I too am having some trouble following the plot here, but something Jeff said in the original post makes me wonder...

 

”Push button” starter. Everyone assumes it’s a foot button with mechanical linkage. Could also be a push button on the dash like my ‘47 Dodge. Mine actuates a firewall solenoid; this squares with “no solinoid on the starter”. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Early in the posts, Jeff mentioned that his 1948 Pontiac had a foot starter on the floor (his post Friday 1 PM). It was easy to miss this fact, and most of the respondents did. 

Hence, he has no solenoid, on the starter, or anywhere else. 

 

This type of GM starter has a drive gear, but it's engaged mechanically, not by centrifugal force like a Bendix drive.

The starter isn't getting any power, probably due to a broken or corroded contactor. The contactor is located on top of the starter and is actuated by the foot pedal, which also serves to engage the drive gear. 

 

The car was running and starting when it was parked. Nothing has changed except that when Jeff stepped on the starter pedal, the contactor failed. That's when they fail, when they get stomped on. Not many mechanical devices die in their sleep.

 

Removing the contactor is a fifteen minute job that requires only leaning over the fender...not physically taxing. He won't need to remove the starter, and he won't need to climb under the car. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Dad always said “check the easy S#%t first!”. Smack the starter with a hammer and try starting it. As mentioned above, sometimes the brushes get clogged and stuck. If that doesn’t do it, you have at least a month of free time to remove it and test it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Yet no one has suggested a simple test light or volt meter.

This thing may just have a dead battery.

Edited by JACK M (see edit history)
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

This thread makes my brain hurt.

Some of the "so called" solutions are, or border, on the edges of  idiocy and danger. Even if some of them actually work and the car starts but few of them would solve the underlying problem which is undoubtedly a bad switch or a dead battery

Edited by CarlLaFong (see edit history)
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JACK M said:

Yet no one has suggested a simple test light or volt meter.

This thing may just have a dead battery.

I did, right off the bat. At the time I was thinking "push button starter" meant there was a starter button on the dash. This did not sound right for a 48 Pontiac but not being a Pontiac owner, could not say for sure and there was always the possibility someone had added a pushbutton and solenoid over the years.

If the OP would come back and say something like, I have inspected and tested the battery and wiring and the battery is good and fully charged and a full 6 volts is getting to the starter and the relay then I could advise him where to go next but as it stands who the hell knows what he is doing or what he is talking about?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JACK M said:

Yet no one has suggested a simple test light or volt meter.

This thing may just have a dead battery.

 

58 minutes ago, CarlLaFong said:

but few of them would solve the underlying problem which is undoubtedly a bad switch or a dead battery

 

I suggested 3 voltage readings that would have sorted out 90 percent of the possibilities, and given some direction if it didn't completely solve it. This thread is a complete trainwreck. I gave up on it yesterday, but I just can't look away completely because I want jeff53 to get this solved. Yes, it is probably something simple, like the switch, or a battery, or a little corrosion between the outside of a battery post and the inside of the hole in the terminal. If I have to make a wild guess I vote for the switch.

 

I too missed where jeff53 said it was a floor pedal. I have been wondering that for a while now. Pontiac flatheads have used both types over the years.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If everyone would read a little more carefully, and write a little more thoughtfully, we could hopefully avoid creating threads like this. 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blind men and an elephant. Pictures help.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What’s wrong with this thread? I love a good  mystery. Padgett is right. I think we deserve a picture. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, on the first page we covered reverse rotation camshafts, twin engine boats with one engine running reverse, triple engine PT boats, backwards fans, and two stroke engines. Who knows what we will have covered the time we get to page three. Maybe space travel?

 

The thread is about a Pontiac that won't start. :D

 

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of PT boats, an old long gone Aussie navy man I knew with the mechanical  skills  regaled how he acquired a PT boat in New Guinea with his navigator accomplice shortly after WW2.  They loaded it with 50 gallon drums of fuel, we call them 44s here, and sailed it to the  Gulf of Carpentaria where they moored it in an estuary to ‘cool off’ .. he and the navigator friend returned to Melbourne and got drunk for about X number of years as many did. Unfortunately the navigator friend step off a tram without looking and was killed by a car. And  that boat is probably still there because he had no idea where it was!! Now the interesting thing is he always said it had 2 Packard motors, not 3. I’m sure the Pontiac will survive. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a mechanic. The real issue seems to be the starter won't turn the engine over. This is just a suggestion and I don't see any mention of it anywhere above.  My stater in my '32 Chevy has been known to stick in the flywheel. Before you take anything apart put the car in 2nd gear, leave the key off. Rock the car back and forth.  Many times this will free the starter. Try to start the car. If that doesn't work try to rock the car a couple of more times. If that doesn't work call a mechanic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, James Wright said:

I'm not a mechanic. The real issue seems to be the starter won't turn the engine over. This is just a suggestion and I don't see any mention of it anywhere above.  My stater in my '32 Chevy has been known to stick in the flywheel. Before you take anything apart put the car in 2nd gear, leave the key off. Rock the car back and forth.  Many times this will free the starter. Try to start the car. If that doesn't work try to rock the car a couple of more times. If that doesn't work call a mechanic. 

 

Note, if the pinion gear is stuck and wont turn, this stalled condition can draw huge amounts of current and burn the starter if one holds the foot pedal down too long.

 

I'd recommend to pull the starter out, maybe a friend could help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a thought but if there is a flywheel cover, removing that should allow a visual examination of the starter gear. But would try the Mexican speed wrench method first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is so lame.

Did the OP think of these items....

Do the headlights come on bright?

Do the heaflights stay on bright while trying to crank the engine?

Does the horn or heater sound strong?

Does the dome light come on bright?

Simple quick electrical system tests when not having a volt meter.

Regardless....A voltage test really needs to be done on the battery sitting and while under cranking load..

..cable connections checked cleaned well...

If the starter still will not crank...check for voltage at starter cable connection sitting and when attempting to crank engine...if full 6.2 volts at starter and still won't crank...starter contacts most likely 1st check with starter still in car... if they are OK.....next and last ...pull

starter to find deeper issue...kinda un likely need to do this last option.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/11/2020 at 6:49 PM, padgett said:

ps Bendix had a patent in 1915 and the Pontiac inline 8 was intro'd in 1933, evidently I have missed something

Totally misused terminology by drivers, mechanics and manufacturers.

All bendix drives are starter drives but all starter drives are not "bendixs"  even though they may be manufactured by Bendix Corp.

A" bendix" by original patents is engaged by the centrifugal force of the armature.

Other starter drives are engaged by a foot pedal or a solenoid pulling a lever that pushes the pinion into the flywheel gear.  The foot pedal then spins the starter after the gear is engaged.  The solenoid is designed to start spinning the pinion as it  is pushed into mesh.

bendix.jpg

starter drive.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now