WPVT Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 If everyone would read a little more carefully, and write a little more thoughtfully, we could hopefully avoid creating threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Blind men and an elephant. Pictures help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frededwarrds Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 What’s wrong with this thread? I love a good mystery. Padgett is right. I think we deserve a picture. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Well, on the first page we covered reverse rotation camshafts, twin engine boats with one engine running reverse, triple engine PT boats, backwards fans, and two stroke engines. Who knows what we will have covered the time we get to page three. Maybe space travel? The thread is about a Pontiac that won't start. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frededwarrds Posted April 12, 2020 Share Posted April 12, 2020 Speaking of PT boats, an old long gone Aussie navy man I knew with the mechanical skills regaled how he acquired a PT boat in New Guinea with his navigator accomplice shortly after WW2. They loaded it with 50 gallon drums of fuel, we call them 44s here, and sailed it to the Gulf of Carpentaria where they moored it in an estuary to ‘cool off’ .. he and the navigator friend returned to Melbourne and got drunk for about X number of years as many did. Unfortunately the navigator friend step off a tram without looking and was killed by a car. And that boat is probably still there because he had no idea where it was!! Now the interesting thing is he always said it had 2 Packard motors, not 3. I’m sure the Pontiac will survive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olsarge Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 I'm not a mechanic. The real issue seems to be the starter won't turn the engine over. This is just a suggestion and I don't see any mention of it anywhere above. My stater in my '32 Chevy has been known to stick in the flywheel. Before you take anything apart put the car in 2nd gear, leave the key off. Rock the car back and forth. Many times this will free the starter. Try to start the car. If that doesn't work try to rock the car a couple of more times. If that doesn't work call a mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 hours ago, James Wright said: I'm not a mechanic. The real issue seems to be the starter won't turn the engine over. This is just a suggestion and I don't see any mention of it anywhere above. My stater in my '32 Chevy has been known to stick in the flywheel. Before you take anything apart put the car in 2nd gear, leave the key off. Rock the car back and forth. Many times this will free the starter. Try to start the car. If that doesn't work try to rock the car a couple of more times. If that doesn't work call a mechanic. Note, if the pinion gear is stuck and wont turn, this stalled condition can draw huge amounts of current and burn the starter if one holds the foot pedal down too long. I'd recommend to pull the starter out, maybe a friend could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just a thought but if there is a flywheel cover, removing that should allow a visual examination of the starter gear. But would try the Mexican speed wrench method first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 This thread is so lame. Did the OP think of these items.... Do the headlights come on bright? Do the heaflights stay on bright while trying to crank the engine? Does the horn or heater sound strong? Does the dome light come on bright? Simple quick electrical system tests when not having a volt meter. Regardless....A voltage test really needs to be done on the battery sitting and while under cranking load.. ..cable connections checked cleaned well... If the starter still will not crank...check for voltage at starter cable connection sitting and when attempting to crank engine...if full 6.2 volts at starter and still won't crank...starter contacts most likely 1st check with starter still in car... if they are OK.....next and last ...pull starter to find deeper issue...kinda un likely need to do this last option. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 On 4/11/2020 at 6:49 PM, padgett said: ps Bendix had a patent in 1915 and the Pontiac inline 8 was intro'd in 1933, evidently I have missed something Totally misused terminology by drivers, mechanics and manufacturers. All bendix drives are starter drives but all starter drives are not "bendixs" even though they may be manufactured by Bendix Corp. A" bendix" by original patents is engaged by the centrifugal force of the armature. Other starter drives are engaged by a foot pedal or a solenoid pulling a lever that pushes the pinion into the flywheel gear. The foot pedal then spins the starter after the gear is engaged. The solenoid is designed to start spinning the pinion as it is pushed into mesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 Thanks again for all the threads. I' ve got my answer. Someone mentioned- since I could run along side of it and start it( aka push start) It was a manual- most be kind of a young person- No it's a Hydramatic. And other than Jacking up the rear wheels and turning the wheel by hand-- Which is never gonna happen at my age ( I'll rig something up first) --- So my answer is simple--- get a bunch of ICY HOT soak in it, find slippery stuff like cardboard put my tools on it,tell my wife we need new pillows and strap old pillows to my knees then make sure there's a very sturdy chair within inches- to use to help get off the floors-- then leave everything on and in place- go bench test the starter- and do everything in reverse---- and pray it was the starter button that caused the problem and not something serious. I would post photos of what I got back- from that shop-- but no need -they are on yelp.---- Once the cars running again--- all I have to do is learn to paint-- where the last person left off. Funny most people would have tossed in the towel long ago- and I'm not even a "car nut"- maybe just a nut---- I figure my car deserves at least a decent retirement too.- Plus we all know- tech is great- but I'm pretty sure very few of the new cars will last 70 years plus. 1st photo- bought car for work-74 $150.. 2nd photo- drove to mechanic shop ( just rustoleum paint to keep from rusting) 3rd photo After 4-5 months ( in 2017) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 OY. Problem is few these daze have seen a transmission like the original Hydra-Matic. Two big differences are: 1: rear pump 2: fluid coupling Having both of these means an early Hydramatic can be push started, a Turbo-Hyramatic with a torque converter and front pump only can't. A jammed starter may stop everything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olsarge Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Well I never considered the car had an automatic transmission. Forget what suggested above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Btw haven't needed this century but back in the day, an old tire strapped to the back allowed a push start with another car. Also have used this method to start a recalitrant Harley (had friends who could start a magneto Sportster with their hand. I couldn't but could rebuild a Tillotson in about 10 minutes so was popular in some circles). Which brings us back to "is the starter jammed or free ?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejboyd5 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 On 4/9/2020 at 9:49 PM, padgett said: That said there were reverse rotation cams. Used in twin engine marine applications to reduce harmonics and torque. Dunno what triples (like PT Boats) used. Packard engines in PT Boats all rotated in the same direction as did the wheels they powered. Center engine was direct drive to its wheel whereas the two outboard engines were installed in an opposite direction to the center engine and transmitted their power to their wheels through V drive transmissions with their shafts passing aft underneath the engines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 Yes I remember- grab any old tire and away you go- just don't mess up the chrome. Not sure about the starter being jammed- shouldn't be- friggin car hasn't moved out of it's spot since 2017- after I check and recheck everything once more- put the hood springs back on tomorrow I'll try to start it one more time then yank the starter. Which is a 2-3 day job for me--- yeah,yeah only 2 bolts- 1 for each day(maybe) and the 3rd to put it back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frededwarrds Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hi Jeff. Thanks for the pictures. Great car. Should keep you busy in these times. Just a small note about running the engine. I do this to warm and circulate the coolant in an all alloy engine. I run the engine at a fast idle for about 30+ minutes . 2000 rpm + .. Make sure it gets hot right through. This helps to draw out the moisture and stops the combustion chamber and plugs from fouling. Letting engine idle is bad news. It’s better to just leave it and take it for a proper drive when you can. Keep well. Take care. And I can’t see the the elephant!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Or you could inspect the wiring and test the battery and see if a full 6 volts is getting to the starter, and check if the switch or relay is working, then fix what is wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlLaFong Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 6 hours ago, ejboyd5 said: Packard engines in PT Boats all rotated in the same direction as did the wheels they powered. Center engine was direct drive to its wheel whereas the two outboard engines were installed in an opposite direction to the center engine and transmitted their power to their wheels through V drive transmissions with their shafts passing aft underneath the engines. Granted, I only served one enlistment so maybe the boats and ships with wheels came after wooden ships and the iron men that sailed on them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bamford Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: Or you could inspect the wiring and test the battery and see if a full 6 volts is getting to the starter, and check if the switch or relay is working, then fix what is wrong. If only someone had suggested that earlier... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 Fred-thanks for that info- I 've always been told to let it idle.and the last time I did- it sound great, but I let it idle for a long time- which with the cost of gas ( then) it was chewing up a lot of peanuts. Rusty- I will check and recheck everything again connection -wiring- read out as I mentioned. I'll try almost anything 1st before getting down on the concrete and pulling the "starter". That's why the bypassing the starter" question was asked in the first place- But I got all the answer to everything else-- which will come in handy maybe later. Shoot if I could trust the shops around here- I would have just had it towed in. I'm sure they could use the work- but I would have to have it towed 20 miles away. Makes me feel bad too because I'm a strong believer in the little shop--but my last 2 1/2 yrs. I'm just tired and want the beast painted and to run nice and be safe. My wife 74- has never ridden in it and my only goal 2 1/2 years ago- was make sure the car was safe, dependable and a decent cheap Earl Scheib or Maaco paint job-- because you can;t drive a paint job. and paying 10-17 thousand for a car that would only be worth about 20-27 - is stupid. The blue and gray you see- is a total of 17 spray paint cans- farm implement type paint- just to keep it from rusting- until I could getting it painted. Rust Oleum- I'm told would start peeling in about 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I had a car painted by Earl Scheib once and they painted everything: tires, moldings, seats,... OTOH I gotten decent jobs from Maaco. Just depends on the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Can you tell me if the Pontiac has an electric pushbutton on the dash or the kind you stomp with your foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 14, 2020 Author Share Posted April 14, 2020 If you have been reading the threads- it's push button on the floor which connects to the push button on top of the starter.. Why? I've already decided to take off the starter--- tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 A less faded 1974... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 In that case there should be a cable direct from the bat to the starter and a mechanical switch on the starter. Not much to go wrong, if the battery is good the cable is good the ground is good and no dirty connections then the only thing left is a bad switch or bad starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Fagedaboud domani. (The Yellow Rolls Royce) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 Excuse the Truck driver lingo--- But Hot Dog you buffaloes helped a ton.--- I got the boat to turn over-without taking the starter off- I was afraid once I got down on the floor I'd be there 'til all this virus crap was over- no way in hell my wife could help- I'm a light guy @ 265 lb. Oh yeah she would've brought me a blanket and tossed some vittles. So thanks a lot to all. Now for the next trouble shoot. The Ground wire from "Neg" battery post- got hot.--- not sure what that means but again I'll check and recheck ( Pos- post on battery was okay-( not hot) so something must be touching somewhere. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) Find the hottest spot and look for a bad connection there. If the whole cable length gets hot, instead of just one spot, the cable may be too small. Edited April 18, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheezestaak2000 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 this might be an easy way to see if the engine is locked up. put the car in high gear, and get a friend to help you push it a foot or 2. mark a spot on crank pullt to see if it actually turns if you cant watch and push at the same time. another simple proceedure, tap the starter a couple times with a hammer, i've seen it get a starter that didn't work, work flawlessly for years afterward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 To Cheezestaak2000- Flat ground in the garage is easy and yes tapping it is a good trick- The reason tapping works- is because sometimes - not often- the starter button on top will work it's way loose. But thanks for the info- I'm not a mechanic by a long shot- but over the years I've learned to trouble shoot just about everything on this car- wiring- wipers-turn signals- I just don't do the mechanical stuff. That's why I worked in a friggin factory for the last 18 years when I was employed- to pay someone else- it's just finding the right people in this area, that's the problem. and the ting is most of them charge the same or close- to those guys that take their car to SEMA- like Kindig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54vicky Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 a poor ground will cause the hot cable due to resistance.if nothing else it was fun reading some of the answers.I think your answers were filtered out Rusty as no one noticed your battery comment in the first few posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 54Vicky- No Rusty's battery suggestion wasn't filtered out- but it was one of the things I checked and rechecked- It's doing it again today- so there's got to be a short somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 If just the negative terminal is getting hot, that is a resistive condition keeping the starter from getting full voltage, not a short. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 Padgett- you're it IS just the negative getting hot- right at the battery post. What do you mean- "resistive condition".- everything reads okay and battery is at 6.5. There's only 2 areas left that I can think of- 1- Might be a wire that goes from the coil (+) to the horn relay- but even with a coil wire missing- the usually "tries to turn over" and the #2 is That shop I took it to 2 years ago also took out the dash and left the ign. switch hanging with the key- Does the ign. switch itself need to be grounded? Right now it just hangs the and I try and turn it over- but here's the thing- it had been starting with no problem- unless I just wasn't aware that it was grounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Take whatever parts are getting hot apart and scrape. It might be where the cable clamps to the battery post. Take it off and scrape the inside of the hole and the outside of the post. If the terminal is just clamped to the wire, you might need to take that apart and clean it out too. The heat points you to the problem. Ignition switch does not need to be grounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 OK, a good quality meter has a very high resistance (like 10k ohms per volt). It will be fine with no load. However a starter pulls A Lot of amps, over 100 (many homes only have 100 amp service). Now at 12v a 4 ga copper wire 8 feet long is good for about 150A. Now what happens is corrosion gets in there (white stuff) and destroys some of the wire strands, effectively making a 4ga with 12 or 14ga that can't carry the load and heats up (is resistive or acts like a resistor). A bad connection can do the same thing. BTW a 6v starter will pull twice the amps as a 12v starter. First you and try pulling the negative cable, clean all connections, and reconnect making sure it is tight. If this does not work you probably need to replace the negative cable. If so I'd use at least 2ga wire in a 6v system. ps ignition switch should not need grounding unless made by Lucas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, padgett said: BTW a 6v starter will pull twice the amps as a 12v starter. First you and try pulling the negative cable, clean all connections, and reconnect making sure it is tight. If this does not work you probably need to replace the negative cable. If so I'd use at least 2ga wire in a 6v system. Just a note, when a 6v starter is powered by a 12v battery, the current draw is about the same (actually, its sightly more) compared to a 6v battery in the same engine. The current draw is purely dependent on the mechanical resistance not voltage applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff53 Posted April 22, 2020 Author Share Posted April 22, 2020 I have a terminal and battery post wire brush cleaner and have made sure both post were cleaned and tighten again- But before I start fussing with it again- I change the battery cable anyhow and make sure they 2 ga ( I think they are 4 ga.) I was also looking a my wiring diagram - noticed there is a wire going from the + on the coil side to the horn relay but it was off and the diagram doesn't show which connection ( post) on the horn relay it connects ( horn relay has 3 post- bottom mark "S" top post marked "H" and the middle is not marked.--- after all this trouble I may just make it a 12 v. But no one around here seems to know how- can't even find 2 mechanics to agree. I bought a classic looking 12 v /alt/gen. from Power Master and it looks just look the old 6 v. I have all the bulbs and replacement headlights. What no one can agree on is- do I need to keep the coil- the voltage reg. does the dist. rotor and points stay-- some say keep the starter- others say replace it--- I get to the resistors for the gauges and clock later ( I want to keep as much original as possible)-- This would be a great time to convert-- there's no headlights- turn signals - no dash in the car yet- basically it's at skeleton phase- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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