Electrical question - headlights 66 Riv

[kreed]

I am a complete idiot when it comes to anything electrical so here goes . Just got my car back from the paint shop and putting it back together. Did the dash yesterday .  My problem is : the headlights come on and flip down as they should but will not come back up when the switch is turned off even though the lights go off . The motor works just fine as I checked it with a power probe - goes up and down as it should but when I plug it into the harness after raising it with the Power  probe, goes down perfectly but will not come back up . Changed the relay on the back of the passenger side headlights - no go still. Is this a ground problem or a defective switch in the dash ?  Any help would be appreciated. Thanks 

KReed

ROA 14549

[1965rivgs]

Hi Ken,

  Dont know if you realize this or not but the key must be in the "on" position for the headlight covers to close. This was made a reality by the addition of the accessory relay to the system after the beginning of the `65 model year production to pull power off the system and prevent draining the battery due to improper adjustment of the closing micro switch. Hope this helps,

Tom Mooney

[kreed]

Hi Tom - I will try that .The 66 is the only one I know of that the key does not need to be on to open the headlights . I think I tried it in all positions but will try again later orang and let you know . Thanks Ken 

 

[JZRIV]

In 66 the headlamps will come down with the key off but key must be ON for them to go up.

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, kreed said:

Hi Tom - I will try that .The 66 is the only one I know of that the key does not need to be on to open the headlights . I think I tried it in all positions but will try again later orang and let you know . Thanks Ken 

 

Ken,

  The `65 headlight covers will open with the key in the off position also...so, key "off", the headlight covers will open but not close...key "on", the headlight covers will both open AND close.

Tom

Edited April 6, 2020 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, JZRIV said:

In 66 the headlamps will come down with the key off but key must be ON for them to go up.

  So the analogy to the `65 system is that the headlights will expose themselves with the key off but they wont hide away behind the covers unless the key is "on".... is that correct/make sense? Same as the `65 system?

 

Tom

[kreed]

No luck - switch on or off - lights go down , switch on- lights don’t come up . My understanding is there is a relay on the driver side firewall and an auxiliary’ relay down by the passenger side lights . Had brand new ones which were originally for my 65  and no go there either . Changed my light switch when I put the dash back together - could that be the problem ? Frustrated!  Tom - do you make house calls ? LOL . I also have several wires  that I don’t know where they go . I have N-95 masks !  😀

KReed

ROA 14549 

[JZRIV]

Ken,

See if the relay on rad support is energizing when the headlamps are turned off. You can hear it click assuming quiet background.

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, kreed said:

No luck - switch on or off - lights go down , switch on- lights don’t come up . My understanding is there is a relay on the driver side firewall and an auxiliary’ relay down by the passenger side lights . Had brand new ones which were originally for my 65  and no go there either . Changed my light switch when I put the dash back together - could that be the problem ? Frustrated!  Tom - do you make house calls ? LOL . I also have several wires  that I don’t know where they go . I have N-95 masks !  😀

KReed

ROA 14549 

Evening Ken,

  Ironically, I`ve just made preliminary arrangements to be in Omaha via Des Moines after this virus business suibsides but who knows when that will be? I would of course be happy to lend a hand...

  Sending you  schematics for the `65 system which should be the same or very similar to your `66. The schematics are broken down into opening and closing cycles. Take a look at the schematics and if necessary we can troubleshoot via a phone call.

Tom

[kreed]

Thanks Tom - I am hoping to have this solved without bothering a bunch of people although you are always welcome here . It’s probably something simple but my electrical capabilities are severely limited . I can take out your pancreas , lung , colon or liver but remain challenged changing a fuse or doing a butt connection between two wires ! Other butt things are easy 😀😊. Stay safe and wear your mask ! Ken 

[1965rivgs]

2 minutes ago, kreed said:

Thanks Tom - I am hoping to have this solved without bothering a bunch of people although you are always welcome here . It’s probably something simple but my electrical capabilities are severely limited . I can take out your pancreas , lung , colon or liver but remain challenged changing a fuse or doing a butt connection between two wires ! Other butt things are easy 😀😊. Stay safe and wear your mask ! Ken 

  OK, this is hilarious. And in spite of the fact, in terms of a response, you so graciously layed out the red carpet for me, I felt it prudent for various reasons to delete the 3 responses I typed out...suffice to say I would offer to trade services at some point in time but I would need to work on your fleet for a decade in trade for an afternoon of your finely honed skills...my parents always told me to stay in school!

  We`ll get through this operation Ken, I sent you an email with the schematics,

Tom

[kreed]

2 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Ken,

See if the relay on rad support is energizing when the headlamps are turned off. You can hear it click assuming quiet background.

Ok I will try it tomorrow Jason - thanks 

KReed 

ROA 14549

[JZRIV]

Addition notes:

The auxiliary relay on the rad support is energized as soon as the ignition key is turned on and stays energized until the headlamp switch is turned on at which time it is deenergized  and the relay on the far left firewall is energized. 

 

So a simple test (Ignition "on" car not running) is to listen for the relay energizing (clicking) on the firewall when the headlight switch is turned on......and then listen for the one on the rad support to energize when the headlamp switch is turned off. The coil on the auxiliary relay gets its power from the wiper circuit fuse (yellow wire) which is powered up with ignition on. Do your wipers work? If you find a relay not energizing when it should, we can continue troubleshooting from there.

 

It has always been my understanding (could be wrong) but the 66-67 auxiliary headlight relay on the rad support in 66 (Right inner fender on 67s) does not share a pin configuration with any other relay. Never tried one from a 65 or heard of anyone using one. Other relays can be made to work but the wiring needs changed in the plug/connector. If the auxiliary relay has been swapped with anything other than a 66/67 aux relay, I would suspect that first. Just because wiring connector plugs in does not mean the pin configuration is correct.

Edited April 7, 2020 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[kreed]

That makes total sense. Thanks for the discussion Jason. Interestingly the headlights were working fine prior to me taking everything apart  to do the frame on paint . I must be doing something wrong in the reconstruction .  I simply took out the  grill to clean it up, bolted it back on and plugged in the motor and never touched the relays on the radiator support or firewall. The only thing I did was change the headlights switch . Is there anything in the switch that would effect the up and down movement  of the lights - obviously they go down when the switch is pulled but not up when it's pushed back in, ignition of or off ?.... Weird. Am I missing a ground somewhere . Will check out the 65  schematics Tom sent . Thanks again to Jason and Tom 

KReed

ROA 14749

[kreed]

Really on firewall clicks perfectly - no such luck on the auxiliary relay on the radiator support . Hope fully can find one . My brand new 65 three prong does not work and probably is incorrect as you said Jason . Will keep you uodated . Thanks Ken 

[1965rivgs]

  On the `65 models, when the headlights are turned on, voltage is supplied to the control relay(4 prong) coil which in turn supplies voltage to the headlight motor opening circuit. When the headlight switch is turned off, the same control relay (4 prong) supplies voltage THROUGH the auxillary relay (3 prong) to the closing circuit of the headlight motor. The auxillary relay is always energized when the ignition key is "on" which allows the voltage from the 4 prong control relay to pass through it to the closing circuit of the headlight motor. If the key is in the "off" position, the auxillary relay (3 prong) is NOT energized and will not allow voltage from the control relay to pass through to the closing circuit of the headlight motor. This is why the headlight covers will not close unless the key is in the "on" position.

Tom

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, kreed said:

Really on firewall clicks perfectly - no such luck on the auxiliary relay on the radiator support . Hope fully can find one . My brand new 65 three prong does not work and probably is incorrect as you said Jason . Will keep you uodated . Thanks Ken 

  Use a test light to see where you have voltage or not. Make sure you have current traveling to the relay from the ignition switch to energize it before you condemn the relay itself. In the `65 system the 3 prong relay is energized by the ignition key via the kickdown switch wiring, looking at the `66 schematic it and the `65 are the same.

  It doesnt necessarily apply to this circumstance as you are not hearing a click at all, but just an FYI, I have frequently found relays which click but do not pass on voltage because the contact points inside are burned. A relay can click but not do what it is intended to do. The first time I encountered this was a painful lesson in time and money. Always best to use a test light to confirm the presence of current.

Tom

Edited April 7, 2020 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

  I`ve always used the `65 service info for the headlight motor circuits but checked and found a bulletin covering the `66 system...very easy, just follow the arrows for current flow in both opening (down) and closing (up) modes. Sorry, wouldnt scan because its on funky orange paper so I had to take a pic, hope this helps,

Tom

 

[1965rivgs]

  Managed to get a scan...dont know if it is really much better,

Tom

 

 

[JZRIV]

Ken,

Disregard if you are able to troubleshoot with light and schematic Tom posted. I know its easy for some but Greek to others so I will attempt to assist without.

I don't like to assume anything so Before going any further it is important to confirm the relay is in FACT at fault.

Test 1: With ignition on, pull the wiring connector from the aux relay and jump the solid black wire and the black/with white stripe wire. The motor should operate. 

 

Test 2: Note which aux relay terminal the yellow wire goes to. Take a piece of wire long enough to reach battery and jump from the battery positive to the terminal. See if relay clicks. The relay must be securely grounded; ie bolted to the rad support or if you choose to remove the relay ground the relay case to battery neg.

 

If the first test runs motor and the second test does not "click" the relay you have confirmed the relay is bad.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[kreed]

Wow - you two are amazing ! Many thanks . Took the car tongue glass guy to have the windshield and back glass put in tomorrow so will play with it this weekend . Very much appreciate the help . Stay safe and wear your masks ! 

 

KReed

14549

[abandg]

Ken, try a jumper from the relay to ground. Sometimes it is just that simple. Gene.

[1965rivgs]

31 minutes ago, abandg said:

Ken, try a jumper from the relay to ground. Sometimes it is just that simple. Gene.

Yes, as Jason has emphasized the relays must be grounded to function properly and given the small screws anchored in sheet metal this is a common problem....easy to tell if you have ground with a test light which is one of the most basic tools to have if one works on cars. Hell, you can even make one from an old taillight socket and a length of wire!

Tom

[dship]

51 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

....Hell, you can even make one from an old taillight socket and a length of wire!

Tom

I made one years ago with those materials to use a timing light for my old '55 Volkswagen!  It worked great....don't know where it is anymore, though.

[kreed]

You know that ground issue might be the problem as I had my guy paint the radiator support right where the relay mounts - wonder if thick paint  might prevent the ground ?.? Appreciate all the help . We’ll get it figured out . 
KReed

ROA 14549 

[1965rivgs]

2 hours ago, kreed said:

You know that ground issue might be the problem as I had my guy paint the radiator support right where the relay mounts - wonder if thick paint  might prevent the ground ?.? Appreciate all the help . We’ll get it figured out . 
KReed

ROA 14549 

YES!! Use "star" washers so they bite. If the holes have enlargened and the screws dont tighten up go to the next size screw...this is a common problem, there is even a service bulletin in `66 about this issue

 

Tom

[kreed]

Supposed to get the car back from the glass guy tomorrow and will give it a try . That would be nice if that’s all it is ! 
KReed

ROA 14549

[EmTee]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:11 AM, JZRIV said:

In 66 the headlamps will come down with the key off but key must be ON for them to go up.

 

Jason, is that only true for '66?  That's the way my '67 behaves.

[JZRIV]

Hey Tim,

Yes as I recall 67 work the same but there may have been slight wiring difference and even a different auxiliary relay. The 66 had 3 wires going to it and pretty sure 67 had 4 with the extra being a ground wire. Next time you have the hood up see if your 67 has 4 wires going to the aux relay.

[1965rivgs]

  I was going to start a new thread concerning this but since it has been brought up here goes...I was poking around in the Buick parts books and noticed the `67 auxillary relay is a different part number as compared to the `66. I am curious about this because one would assume the `66 and `67 systems would mirror each other. I found a picture of the `67 relay and it has 5 prongs on it as compared to the `65-`66. I thought perhaps Buick parts substituted a 5 prong where there was originally a 3 prong but a check of the `67 shop manual shows 2 plug housings at the aux relay, one a 3 terminal plug and the other a 2 terminal plug. However, the `67 shop manual wiring diagram only shows 3 wires at the aux relay. And the way the aux relay is wired in the diagram seems to be incorrect for a 3 terminal relay???? Thought maybe there was a running change in the system during `67 but havnt checked the service bulletins, etc...to investigate.

  If anyone could post a pic of their `67 aux relay that would be great.

  I imagine the possibilities are the factory used multiple cavities at the 3 and 2 wire plugs but only used 3 wires...or Buick changed the actual wiring. I suspect what Jason has proposed, adding a dedicated ground wire instead of relying on the relay mounting screws, is the modification Buick made...that makes alot of sense....but I would think to do so would only require 1 extra terminal? So why 2 extra terminals? Maybe there is an empty cavity in one of the plug housing?

Tom

 

[kreed]

Problem solved - I tried all the suggestions by both Tom and Jason. Came to the  conclusion that the relay was  bad . My son , who is a real smart ass said " duh.....why don't we just take the auxiliary relay out of your  other 66 which we k ow works and see what happens ."   We did and it worked perfectly ! The other two three prong relays I have , one of which is new , and originally bought for my 65 do NOT work so as Jason stated they must be different even though they look Identical ?.. So if anyone has a for sure 66 relay , I am interested . Why GM would make different relays a year apart , I do not understand . Oh well , many thanks to Tom and Jason- the undisputed experts !  On a lighter note , a friend sent me this today ( hope I don't get banned for ROA , but her goes ) 

 

 A suspected Covid-19 male patient is lying in bed in the hospital, wearing an oxygen mask over his mouth and nose.A young student female  nurse appears and gives him a partial sponge bath. "Nurse,"' he mumbles from behind the mask, "are my testicles black?"
Embarrassed, the young nurse replies, "I don't know, Sir. I'm only here to wash your upper body and feet."
He struggles to ask again, "Nurse, please check for me. Are my testicles black?"
Concerned that he might elevate his blood pressure and heart rate from worrying about his testicles, she overcomes her embarrassment and pulls back the covers.
She raises his gown, holds his manhood in one hand and his testicles gently in the other.
She looks very closely and says, "There's nothing wrong with them, Sir. They look fine."
The man slowly pulls off his oxygen mask, smiles at her, and says very slowly,
"Thank you very much. That was wonderful. Now listen very,very, closely:
"Are - my - test - results - back?"

 

 

[kegart]

In times like this we all need a good laugh. 

 

Kevin 

[EmTee]

On 4/10/2020 at 11:52 AM, JZRIV said:

Next time you have the hood up see if your 67 has 4 wires going to the aux relay.

 

Yes, four wires to the relay as shown below:

 

Here's the diagram from the shop manual:

 

Probably good that I looked at this, as even though it worked fine, there was corrosion on the No. 1 terminal:

 

I cleaned the relay terminals and pulled the connector terminal from the #1 socket and cleaned everything up before reassembling.  There appeared to be faint silk screen marking on the relay body that hinted at a schematic, but even after cleaning with some WD-40, I couldn't make it out, nor could I find any P/N.  The shop manual also confirms the operation: the headlights will deploy with the key OFF, but key must be ON to retract them.  Also note that there's no connection to relay terminal #2 (as seen in the schematic & first photo).

Edited April 11, 2020 by EmTee
updated (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

I thought so Tim. 66 Aux relay is different than 67. Thanks for posting pic

[kreed]

Her are the pictures of the four relays that I have . The one on the top in the first picture and I n the middle of the second picture  is the one that actually works ( has a little bit of cadmium plating left ) and is the one I took from my very original  66 GS and it works perfectly in the problem child car . The two relays that look exactly like the one that works were "left overs" from my 65 restoration and definitely do not work in either of my 66's . The newer looking one has a sister 4 prong that I bought from Jim Kehr ( best offer counts ) and they were sold as new 65 clam shell relays ..... I took one of the originals apart and it looked pristine inside - put in back together and still no go so..... I am beginning to believe that the 65 and 66 auxiliary relays are differrent animals even though they look identical . Does that make any sense at all? Or am I just lucky enough to have three other auxiliary relays that are bad ?.. 

[JZRIV]

Glad you figured it out. I forgot you had 2 66's. Those 3 original relays sure do look the same and I bet they are. The only way they might differ is if one of the other terminals operates the coil vs the one from 66 but that's unlikely. With the case grounded, try touching battery positive to each terminal one at a time. If none of them operate the relay, its definitely bad.....but possibly repairable.

 

If you want to send them to me I'll see if I can repair them. No charge

 

Or if you want to operate on them, (pun intended) when you remove the cover there is a thin piece of brass with some spring to it and that must touch the inside of case making good contact to complete the ground to one side of the coil. Then look very closely for two as-fine-as-a-hair wires that come off coil and are soldered to the terminals. Sometimes one of these are broken. They can sometimes be reconnected. 

[kreed]

Hi Jason - thanks for the note . Yes , I saw exactly what you described when I opened the one relay . The very fine wires and the thin brass piece was definitely touching the side of the relay . Everything  looked OK but I could have easily missed something as I  really didn't know what I was looking for ( very much unlike surgery  where we think we know what we're going in for  but occasionally find something unsuspected ! ) . Actually everything was spotlessly clean inside the one I did open -  not a speck of rust but like you mentioned,  I could have easily missed one of those very fine connections . I may take you up on your offer to take a look at them . I'll send an email later to discuss . Thanks or all the help.

KReed 

ROA 14549 

[kreed]

The plot thickens ! Did a you said Jason and took the two that I thought were non-functional, grounded them to the car  and touched each terminal with positive off battery  and both clicked perfectly on the yellow wire terminal . Took the one that was working out of the car and did the same test and NO terminal clicked . Put it back in car and worked perfectly . Now I am confused ! Particularly since one of the two that I thought was non functional was working before the paint job. Like I said In my first post , I am idiot when it comes to car electrical stuff. Would reversing the two top wires in the plug in make them work ? I am beginning to think that the 65 and 66 are two different relays internally although they look identical and are numbered the same in the terminal area on the bottom 🤔

KReed

ROA 14549

[EmTee]

If you have an Ohm meter it would be pretty simple to determine which terminal is which on your spare relays.  Based on the '67 schematic I posted above and Jason's functional description of the '66 relay, there should be continuity between the metal case and one of the three terminals (ref. terminals 4 & 5 in the schematic).  The other two terminals should be isolated from the case and each other when the coil is not energized.  Note that on the '67 schematic, the motor voltage is fed to the Auxiliary (terminal #1) relay by the Control relay (terminal #2).  It's possible that the inconsistent behavior that you're seeing might be caused by a faulty/sticky Control relay.

 

But...  I just noticed that the Control relay on the '67 schematic above shows that its activation coil is grounded through the case of that relay.  Since the car was just painted, it may actually be the ground at the Control relay that is intermittent...

[1965rivgs]

On 4/11/2020 at 11:58 AM, EmTee said:

 

Yes, four wires to the relay as shown below:

 

Here's the diagram from the shop manual:

 

Probably good that I looked at this, as even though it worked fine, there was corrosion on the No. 1 terminal:

 

I cleaned the relay terminals and pulled the connector terminal from the #1 socket and cleaned everything up before reassembling.  There appeared to be faint silk screen marking on the relay body that hinted at a schematic, but even after cleaning with some WD-40, I couldn't make it out, nor could I find any P/N.  The shop manual also confirms the operation: the headlights will deploy with the key OFF, but key must be ON to retract them.  Also note that there's no connection to relay terminal #2 (as seen in the schematic & first photo).

This confirms the pictured connectors in the `67 manual I previously mentioned, one 3 and one 2 cavity housings, but I missed the headlight only system schematic when I looked through the shop manual...I`ll look again. The overall schematic for the Riv in the `67 manual shows only 3 wires at the aux relay and the way it is displayed would not operate correctly...so it must be incorrect.

Tom