The Sale of Car Titles is Prohibited

[1912Staver]

34 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said:

Sorry you are not correct this time as every Province is different. Here in Ontario you need an ownership / title. 

 

But is the document in Ontario something that is issued once and needs to be protected for decades ?  You are correct, I don't know about Ontario. Here in B.C. we get a new registration document every time we renew our insurance. You can if you like keep the registration part of the document from previous years renewals and accumulate as many as the number of times you renew your insurance.

At registration transfer time you can use any of them , there is no requirement that only the newest one can be used.  Or if you lost the document you just pay $20.00 and the insurance agent prints out a new one on the spot.

The impression that I get from the reports of title woes I see on these forums is that in some States if you loose that perhaps 40 year old document you are for all practical purposes dead in the water.

I am curious about Ontario's practices. I always had the impression they were much closer to British Columbia's approach than a typical U.S,. State issued Title.

Greg

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

3 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

What province was it from?  I've heard similar stories from the Prairie provinces, but here in Ontario you must have a valid registration. I do not like buying cars from Saskatchewan or Manitoba for that reason. They don't seem to care much about a clear registration.

[3macboys]

53 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

But is the document in Ontario something that is issued once and needs to be protected for decades ?  You are correct, I don't know about Ontario. Here in B.C. we get a new registration document every time we renew our insurance. You can if you like keep the registration part of the document from previous years renewals and accumulate as many as the number of times you renew your insurance.

At registration transfer time you can use any of them , there is no requirement that only the newest one can be used.  Or if you lost the document you just pay $20.00 and the insurance agent prints out a new one on the spot.

The impression that I get from the reports of title woes I see on these forums is that in some States if you loose that perhaps 40 year old document you are for all practical purposes dead in the water.

I am curious about Ontario's practices. I always had the impression they were much closer to British Columbia's approach than a typical U.S,. State issued Title.

Greg

 

 

 

 

In Ontario the Ownership is essentially a two part document - one half is for the plates and the other half is for the vehicle that the plates are registered to.  It is technically the property of the province as are the plates with the exception of personal plates that are the property of the owner and the only plates that can be re-issued with the same sequence on them.  Upon the sale of the vehicle the current owner has to sign over on the back of the ownership to the new owner.  That document is then surrendered at the time that the vehicle is registered in the new owners name.   The plate portion stays with the plates that can be held onto for future use but when they are registered to a new vehicle the old plate portion is surrendered and a new document is produced with the current vehicle information that they are registered to.  Hopefully that all makes sense - it's a not a living document so a title is in some of the states or say the deed to a property.  

[1912Staver]

So no fundamental differences with motor vehicles  from what we do in British Columbia. We don't sign the Registration itself to transfer , but there is a separate transfer form that must be filled out by both the buyer and seller, then processed by a Govt. insurance agent to transfer the registration.

Here in the case of property titles the home owner never even sees the actual certificate of property title, it stays perminantly in the Land Title office. It is transferred completely behind the scenes by your Lawyer. No chance of a careless owner misplacing or loosing it, rather unlike vehicle documents.

 

 

Greg

Edited March 23, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Just my thoughts, folks.  Both the AACA & Library and Research Center fall under the coveted 501c3 "Non-Profit" status with the IRS.  The AACA must be very protective so as not to lose this category for being the media allowing anything illicit.  

[Brass is Best]

17 hours ago, Haisley said:

Can you sell a car without the title?

 

In some states no. Other states set the price of a car with no title as junk at a certain price. A good practice is never buy a car without a title, and make sure the number on the car is on the title. 

[SC38dls]

I played football from 3rd grade thru college (my body shows it 50 years later) and all those years and as far as I know even before that and since then you have to play by the rules. The AACA says selling titles is against the rules. No questions about it if you want to play on the forum just like sports you have to play by the rules. 
Hope you realize you can’t be special and not play by the rules. 
Dave S 

[Bhigdog]

All right enough beating around the bush.

What the Hell is actually going on.

Someone was, I gather, offering car "titles" for sale in the forum.

AACA management objected.

Everyone has an opinion while knowing little.

So far so Good.........So.

What are the details?

Where do the titles come from?

What states?

What is their value in $

Is it any title or old ones with no DOT record.

Is it legal?

So what's it all about?

Inquiring minds want to know............Bob

[Buffalowed Bill]

Simple question and hope there is a simple answer. Why is there no uniformity, state to state, or province to province? IMO what we need is one set of rules that applies to all. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to rehash part of the process every several months.

Bill

[39BuickEight]

30 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Simple question and hope there is a simple answer. Why is there no uniformity, state to state, or province to province? IMO what we need is one set of rules that applies to all. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to rehash part of the process every several months.

Bill

 

There are incredible differences between states in terms of economies, demographics, incomes, geography, culture, weather, and the list goes on and on.  This is why we have the electoral college in elections.   The world is getting smaller, so questions like these come up more often than ever.  If there was a thing that one would think would be consistent, yet is not, it arguable would be documenting vehicle ownership.  The administration and enforcement of it could and would obviously still vary, but one common way to determine ownership would make sense.  Cars are bought, sold, and traded across state lines like never before.

[SC38dls]

Differences in state/province laws have nothing to do with this situation. AACA says it is against the rules on this forum. Therefore if you want to be on this forum you must play by their rules. No exceptions, no special dispensation, no breaking the rules. It’s that simple. 
if you want to sell titles ok, just not on the AACA forum. 
dave s 

[plymouthcranbrook]

I really never gave a thought to obtaining a title unless there was a car attached to it although I did learn the benefits of promptness in title transfer. I held off for 12 years transferring the title of my 52 Plymouth for no real good reason. I finally decided to do so and put plates on it. Imagine my excitement when the several DMV employees here in Il. gathered around the one with the title in hand for a discussion.  Luckily for me they were just trying to find the best way to get it done so that there would’ve be any problems.  Nice to know that that was their first thought rather than just handing it back to me and saying “Good Luck Pal”

[Brass is Best]

1 hour ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Simple question and hope there is a simple answer. Why is there no uniformity, state to state, or province to province? IMO what we need is one set of rules that applies to all. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to rehash part of the process every several months.

Bill

 

Well we are not supposed talk politics on here... 

[Guest]

"deep sigh....."

How come, on every forum, when a member decides the rules need to be altered to suit his private needs (when they are usually clearly defined at registration) the Moderators are painted as some type of Draconian jack-booted tyrants for enforcing those agreed upon regulations? Then they sign off with a final insult post and an "I'm going home and taking my ball with me!" attitude.

 

I have been a car forum Moderator. I recognize the time involved, the balance needed to juggle varied personalities and it's all volunteer work. I have seen forums cave in to others needs for slacker rules and some of those forums have degenerated to pretty unfriendly places where belittling and swearing at one another take precedence over actual car sharing information. When I choose not visit that type of forum any longer, I just leave. Quietly. Without a public decree.

 

Maybe all of us remaining members can take a breath and realize just how informative and friendly this board is. I do.

And it's exactly what keeps me coming back. 

 

Greg

 

[Trulyvintage]

If you don’t like being a member of any group ...

 

Leave

 

Don’t be a Drama Queen 👑 

 

Don’t start a thread about it.

 

Just Leave ....

 

 

Jim

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

I have never in my 40 years in the old car hobby met anyone that collected historical documents / titles as a hobby. But I know of a fellow up here that has binders full of them for sale. He also asked me if I know where he can buy a machine to stamp numbers in vin tags. I suppose they are collectible also. 

I am waiting for a new post to come up of someone having their car stolen and then seeing all the sympathetic comments.  

I bought a 68 GTO and an original 66 Biscayne 2 door big block with no titles at different times in New Mexico. But I did get the title legally and they now both have a licence and on the road here in Canada. There is a law that says it is not legal to switch titles for a reason. Check and see how many collector cars care stolen and never recovered. And no they are not all broken down.

Yes I am against the selling historical documents / titles.     

Edited March 24, 2020 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[pont35cpe]

Years ago i bought a basket case 30s car, title came with it, seller claimed it was to the car, was in his name(at least what he said his name was). No engine, original engine number was on the title. I talked to the tag man, he had me do a pencil/paper trace of the frame number, then issued me a title.

[JACK M]

20 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

What province was it from?  I've heard similar stories from the Prairie provinces, but here in Ontario you must have a valid registration. I do not like buying cars from Saskatchewan or Manitoba for that reason. They don't seem to care much about a clear registration.

 

B.C.

It was several years ago and I am over it.

However the experience has soured me to even looking at what may be available to me from up there.

I consider myself an enthusiast and love to rotate my collection fairly often.

In days past it even made me a few bucks, any more it is the opposite.

But the passion is still there and I am lucky enough to be able to do this and have at least enough talent to enjoy my passion.

I am not that far from the northern border and I see some vehicles up there that peak my interests, but as mentioned, I have been scared off.

I read the comments here that deal with bringing cars from Canada into the US with interest, however have not been convinced that it would be worth the hassles.

Especially with different provinces tossed into the mix as Ed mentions. Not unlike the differences between our states.

[1912Staver]

The seller should have taken the car back to B.C. so you could have legally imported it to the U.S.. The same sort of snafu happens when a U.S. car is taken to B.C.; say by a Ski industry person , who then leaves it behind for friends to sell at the end of the ski season.

It creates a complicated situation.  The seller definitely took advantage of you unless the lower portion of the insurance document had the Registration portion. If it was far enough back they were on two separate pages, later 1 page with a detachable registration portion at the bottom of the page.

But even then that isn't the " normal " way to sell a B.C. car to a U.S. buyer.. It was probably resolvable but you are correct it would have definitely been substantial trouble. For a legal transfer there is a separate form that the buyer and seller must both fill out. The registration part of the insurance for is a supporting document.

Buying a B.C. registered car in B.C. and importing it into the U.S. is nether risky or difficult if the correct process is followed. Up until recent events there has been a steady flow of B.C. vehicles legally  migrating South to new U.S. homes.

 

Greg

[Isaiah]

If the title  is not a title of origin  it is just a state taxing tool.

[lump]

For me, this is a simple situation. AACA says we cannot sell old automobile titles on this site. It's their site, and their rules. So be it. 

 

As far as legality goes, I have seen this issue tested by government officials here in Ohio. I run the largest swap meet in this area, and have made good friends with local community leaders in the process. One such friend used to be the county auditor here, and he would often drive his convertible down to participate in our event. Then one year he discovered a vendor selling old auto titles in his booth, with a sign reading, "Old auto titles bought and sold, as collectible items ONLY." This auditor told the man this was illegal, and when the vendor disagreed, the auditor called on-duty sheriff deputies to come and seize the titles, and instructed them to issue the vendor a citation into court. But by the second day of the event, the titles had been returned to the vendor, and no citation was issued. The auditor was steamed, but could do nothing about it. He reported to me that state officials explained to him that only USING the titles to misrepresent something was illegal in Ohio. 

 

Again, this doesn't change the facts. It's AACA's forum, and for whatever reason they made a rule that used auto titles cannot be sold on this site. End of story, as I see it. 

[mike6024]

I let a wrecking yard take a rusty car from me, and I gave him the title to go with it, what we call the pink slip. The way he took it made me realize he didn't really care about he title. I could just as easily gave him the car and kept the title. made me realize I could have kept it, and activated the registration on the vehicle that had gone off for parts and the crusher.

 

[Isaiah]

The scrap buyers wont take them unless you have the title !

[mike6024]

Not true.

 

[Bloo]

You are going to need a title for that in WA. A signed one, that matches the numbers on the car. As I recall you do get cut some slack if the date on the signature is too old. That part might be a problem, or at least an expense if you wanted to transfer it and register it rather than scrap it.

[John_S_in_Penna]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:00 AM, Joe in Canada said:

I have never in my 40 years in the old car hobby met anyone that collected historical documents / titles as a hobby. But I know of a fellow up here that has binders full of them for sale....

 

I agree, Joe, though I think it would be interesting

to keep them truly as historical artifacts of car ownership.

I've found a few old driver's licenses and car registration

cards from the 1930's at flea markets.

 

If old titles really were collectibles, they would be $5 or

$15 apiece, and people would buy several interesting ones;

but sellers often want $200 for them.  So they clearly

aren't being used as historic pieces to save in an album.

 

Here's a 1908 Penna. driver's license for a 1906 Cadillac.

The car is now restored and, together with some original

documentation, still in the original family:

Edited March 25, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

The important thought along this topic line is how many of the members legally own the car or cars in their garage or on their property. Are you spending your time and money on a car that you don't legally own? Did you go to the DMV, pay the tax (the legal and truthful tax) and properly take ownership.

 

I have properly licensed a number of cars I bought just to resell. That included insuring them to meet the state requirement. Some have been disassembled at the time.

 

My life in the car hobby since a kid has always been very casual and honest in every transaction. I remember one time I bought a truck from a guy in a bar. Then I found out his girlfriend actually owned it and he took off with the money> I think her words were "Keep it, don't worry. I'll take care of his when he comes back". There are a few ways to establish proof of ownership. Sometimes the car may not meet the regulations. I am 72 years old. I certainly know how to fix that.

Bernie

[Matt Harwood]

Ever wondered how a freshly built 1932 Ford roadster with a plastic body, an aftermarket chassis, and a Chevy V8 with automatic transmission can be titled as a 1932 Ford instead of a 2020 Homebuilt?

 

Ever wondered why titles for 1932 and 1934 Fords are so much more expensive than titles for, say, 1931 Plymouths?

 

Now you know.

[CarlLaFong]

Selling title has always seemed,to me., to be exactly the same as the convenience store that sells ZigZag rolling papers but no Bull Durham and they say""we don't know what the kids do with them, maybe arts and craft projects or they collect them"

[TTR]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Ever wondered how a freshly built 1932 Ford roadster with a plastic body, an aftermarket chassis, and a Chevy V8 with automatic transmission can be titled as a 1932 Ford instead of a 2020 Homebuilt?

Yet, having a (false/inaccurate/incorrect) title doesn't make that "Homebuilt" pile of aftermarket fakeydoo components sprinkled with Chinese chrome trinkets any closer to 1932 than my wife's late-model Japanese-made Hybrid. 🙄

If anything, having a (false) title and/or owner claiming otherwise just makes the fraud even more obvious.

Edited March 26, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I asked a cop about this very thing once.

He said that they would want the car registered by what it looks like.

If he got a bulletin to be on the look out for a '2020 home built' what would he look for.

If he got word to be watching for a 32 Ford he doesn't care if it has any original parts or not.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Ever wondered how a freshly built 1932 Ford roadster with a plastic body, an aftermarket chassis, and a Chevy V8 with automatic transmission can be titled as a 1932 Ford instead of a 2020 Homebuilt?

 

Ever wondered why titles for 1932 and 1934 Fords are so much more expensive than titles for, say, 1931 Plymouths?

 

Now you know.

 

Yes, a hard lesson learned by Boyd Coddington as well.