mercer09

The Sale of Car Titles is Prohibited

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9 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

There are a few things that are not ideal with life in Canada. But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada.  It really puts the owner of very old cars in a spot when you must have a title but in many cases they didn't even exist back beyond a certain point in time or in certain States, or with a certain age of car, .

 And I thought Kafka understood about all there was to know about dealing with bureaucracy. He could have written a few further volumes just about vintage cars and the DMV.

 

Greg in Canada

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

While I agree with prohibiting the sale of titles on these forums I believe you will find that selling titles is NOT illegal. What IS illegal is using a title for fraudulent purposes, a subtle but distinct difference. Same with VIN tags. It is not illegal to remove a VIN tag. It only becomes illegal if that tag is used for fraudulent purposes.

While I'm not a lawyer (far from it), I believe offering to sell titles (or VIN tags) for vehicles they were not originally issued for might be considered "fraudulent purpose", hence illegal or at least unethical practice.

I also believe vehicle titles might constitute as government issued (and owned ?) legal documents, which should be surrendered back to respective agencies/authorities should the vehicles listed in them become permanently removed from their jurisdiction, whether by selling/transferring it to another jurisdiction (i.e. country or State) or parting it out (salvage/wrecking yards, etc).

I know several law abiding salvage/wrecking yard owners/operators in various parts of the world who will not accept vehicles without their correct/legal titles, as they are expected to have them on file for each vehicle in their inventory and/or surrender them back to government agencies as part of their normal course of business.

 

Also, just because a vehicle has a title issued by some other jurisdiction (country or State), it may not always be enough.

Just a few years ago, some friends became embroiled in a very complicated, costly and time consuming legal wrangling. Here's somewhat simplified synopsis:

About 30+ years ago, some European enthusiast bought a vintage car (with a title) in the U.S. and had it shipped to his native country, where it eventually got registered with a new title issued by local authorities. While those authorities didn't insist on surrendering the U.S. title, it essentially became useless(?).

Over the following years/decades, the car changed owners on several occasions and eventually was accepted/invited to participate in a vintage driving event in Latin America. 

It was then decided to ship car back to U.S. for some final prep and easier transportation access to said event. After the event participation, the car was returned to U.S. before shipping it back to Europe.

So now, after multiple border and continent crossings in past several decades and already in a container, at the docks, destined back to its home for past 3+ decades, U.S. authorities suddenly discovered said vehicle having been reported stolen (in the U.S.) over 40 years ago and prevented its departure until everything got cleared ...

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When I bought my Pierce-Arrow on eBay it came from New York which is a Bill-of-sale state that does use their registration paperwork to transfer ownership. Knowing horror stories about North Carolina registration issues I asked for a notarized bill of sale to accompany that paperwork as well as a copy of anything showing his purchase.
 

This is what came as prior ownership proof, and is now stored in my fireproof safe along with my new North Carolina title.

 

Now let’s say he transfers with JUST the bill of sale and gives this to a buddy, then that buddy decided to claim ownership of my car once I dropped thousands into it, where would I be? You bet I’d be totally f**ked and out some $25-30k


I agree it’s not selling that is the issue, but what that purchaser does with it...

47708EDD-0A6D-4E15-A492-5A6FA06E5102.jpeg

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, JACK M said:

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

 

 

Insurance documents would be very questionable. Like the U.S. there are definitely Province to Province differences. But in Canada we generally use a registration document issued by whatever form our Provincial Motor Vehicles dept. takes.

Some Provinces have Provincial Gvmt. insurance rather than the private insurance in most States, but in B.C. at least the Registration is a separate part of the document that MAY as well be your insurance.

However in many cases getting a replacement document is easy and straightforward. Even if no paperwork exists; the case with many older vintage cars , there is generally a remedy that does not involve lawyers, Judges, Court Orders,

the posting of Bond's and all the other extreme solutions that seem to be required in several U.S. State jurisdictions. Yes, no paperwork in Canada is a hassle, but not a brick wall.

The seller should have provided you with his home Provinces registration document and the required transfer of ownership form. Unfortunately it definitely appears they took advantage of you in this sale.

Once the transfer of ownership takes place it does not matter what old documentation is produced by someone claiming the car. It has been sold and legally transferred.

An exception would occur if a past owner reported the car stolen to the Police, but pretty unlikely.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

... it’s not selling that is the issue, but what that purchaser does with it...

I disagree a little.

I believe the issue here is AACA or this website not wanting to be considered accomplishes and/or to be held liable for providing a platform for someone conducting what could be considered (or perhaps is ?) illegal activity.

Edited by TTR (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, JAK said:

If you ever tried to convince an agent at PennDot that all you had for your 1906 Buick was a bill of sale because the title had long ago dissappeared

you might look at this subject differently. Not usually a problem for most of the cars I see on owners lists.  Unfortunately another service to the hobby is gone.

 

 

That's why you don't buy cars without titles. Having dealt with PeenDot for for over 60 years and my father for years before that, they can be a PIA; however, it is important that you know that you don't have a stolen vehicle, regardless of age. There are legitmate ways in PA to get a new title without committing a crime. Very difficult to call the practice of forging paperwork and altering vehicle identification a service to the hobby.

 

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25 minutes ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

This is what came as prior ownership proof, and is now stored in my fireproof safe along with my new North Carolina title.

Mark, the six-digit number on your Missouri title is an ENGINE number as was the case in many states for decades.  The SERIAL number on Pierces from 1929-1938 is seven digits.  Now, over the years, engines have been changed and the engine in the car no longer bears the number on the title/registration/insurance documents--and there is no documentation.  For Pierce owners, it's useful to register with the Pierce-Arrow Society the three different numbers that each 1920-1938 Pierce originally bore from the factory:  serial, engine, and body numbers.  The Society maintains records, on only the basis of what members report, of changes to engine numbers when there have been substitutions.  In one case I was able to help with, a factory body number had been used by some previous owner as the serial number, and we were able to provide documentation to straighten that mess out.

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In March of 2017, your Moderators and those above us discussed and came up with this policy, the offenders were warned, and posts deleted. Nothing has changed since then. Some posters think we will forget or not find them? To the "repeat offenders" who won't accept AACA's policy: go sell them on E-bay and pay the fees. Peter is not the bad guy here. Karl

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2 hours ago, JAK said:

If you ever tried to convince an agent at PennDot that all you had for your 1906 Buick was a bill of sale because the title had long ago dissappeared

you might look at this subject differently. Not usually a problem for most of the cars I see on owners lists.  Unfortunately another service to the hobby is gone.

 

...especially because most states didn't issue titles in 1906! I've purchased several old cars with bad titles or no titles, and I've always gotten legit titles for them. I do have to hire (an AACA member) lawyer and pay court fees, but I think that is cheaper than being busted for faking a title. That said, I wish PennDOT would have more understanding of our antiques.

 

Phil

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AACA has made the correct and long overdue decision. Using this very valuable website to conduct possibly "shady business" at best should be prohibited, none of us would want to fall victim to such. As indicated, the member was privately asked to desist and he declined. End of story. I suggest if members want to reminisce about title/ownership/state differences/annoyances/skirting the laws etc, someone start a new thread. Thanks to our leadership.

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Posted (edited)

I like reading Mercer's posts. And I mean a lot more than other's.

 

There are some regulations and laws that impede some innocent things an honest person wants to do. By the time I left High School  my grandfather and the people I worked with through him had shown me the ropes. And I am a lot older and more experienced now. Two honest people can make a beneficial and just exchange. With law there is only the law, and seldom justice.

 

I am reminded of my grandfather after my grandmother's death. He called women over 40 cemetery weeds. He wanted a wife but was scared an older one might die. Young waitresses attracted him. He had business cards printed saying he was an affiliate of MGM Studios. I told him "Jerry, I think you can get into trouble with that. I'd say they were against the law." He looked me right in the eye and as serious as possible informed me  "When I bought my first movie ticket I became an affiliate of MGM". That was about 30 years ago and I can't deny I may have used that reasoning sometime in the intervening years.

 

Of course, a search in the For Sale section ain't gonna bring up my name. This is a tough crowd. And as my grandfather said "Don't flirt with a rattlesnake".

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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Mercer has some good opinions and some

good insights.  I recommend:  Don't offer titles

here, and stick around to participate with your

friends.  Associating with other members with

the same interests always does a person good.

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2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada. 

Sorry you are not correct this time as every Province is different. Here in Ontario you need an ownership / title. 

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1 hour ago, TTR said:

I disagree a little.

I believe the issue here is AACA or this website not wanting to be considered accomplishes and/or to be held liable for providing a platform for someone conducting what could be considered (or perhaps is ?) illegal activity.


In my first post I fully agree with and support the AACA’s decision, what you quoted from is the argument those who disagree are touting. My second post was trying to make a point that a car can exist in two sets of circumstances at the same time and the outdated paperwork can have a very negative impact on future transactions, it was in no way intended to argue the rules.

 

Grimy, my car is in the PAS database and was purchased from a previous member that Zephyr and you most likely knew better than I do. The little discrepancy of engine vs vin on the paperwork was noted by the state trooper that physically verified the car and with everything matched up he issued the new title. I was very happy he didn’t need the old title as it has historic value with the car, but that was after it was voided on the back and reference made to the new title. If the titles being sold as “historical documents” were likewise voided in pen on the back would we still be having any discussion here???

 

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said:

Sorry you are not correct this time as every Province is different. Here in Ontario you need an ownership / title. 

 

But is the document in Ontario something that is issued once and needs to be protected for decades ?  You are correct, I don't know about Ontario. Here in B.C. we get a new registration document every time we renew our insurance. You can if you like keep the registration part of the document from previous years renewals and accumulate as many as the number of times you renew your insurance.

At registration transfer time you can use any of them , there is no requirement that only the newest one can be used.  Or if you lost the document you just pay $20.00 and the insurance agent prints out a new one on the spot.

The impression that I get from the reports of title woes I see on these forums is that in some States if you loose that perhaps 40 year old document you are for all practical purposes dead in the water.

I am curious about Ontario's practices. I always had the impression they were much closer to British Columbia's approach than a typical U.S,. State issued Title.

Greg

 

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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3 hours ago, JACK M said:

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

What province was it from?  I've heard similar stories from the Prairie provinces, but here in Ontario you must have a valid registration. I do not like buying cars from Saskatchewan or Manitoba for that reason. They don't seem to care much about a clear registration.

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53 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

But is the document in Ontario something that is issued once and needs to be protected for decades ?  You are correct, I don't know about Ontario. Here in B.C. we get a new registration document every time we renew our insurance. You can if you like keep the registration part of the document from previous years renewals and accumulate as many as the number of times you renew your insurance.

At registration transfer time you can use any of them , there is no requirement that only the newest one can be used.  Or if you lost the document you just pay $20.00 and the insurance agent prints out a new one on the spot.

The impression that I get from the reports of title woes I see on these forums is that in some States if you loose that perhaps 40 year old document you are for all practical purposes dead in the water.

I am curious about Ontario's practices. I always had the impression they were much closer to British Columbia's approach than a typical U.S,. State issued Title.

Greg

 

 

 

 

In Ontario the Ownership is essentially a two part document - one half is for the plates and the other half is for the vehicle that the plates are registered to.  It is technically the property of the province as are the plates with the exception of personal plates that are the property of the owner and the only plates that can be re-issued with the same sequence on them.  Upon the sale of the vehicle the current owner has to sign over on the back of the ownership to the new owner.  That document is then surrendered at the time that the vehicle is registered in the new owners name.   The plate portion stays with the plates that can be held onto for future use but when they are registered to a new vehicle the old plate portion is surrendered and a new document is produced with the current vehicle information that they are registered to.  Hopefully that all makes sense - it's a not a living document so a title is in some of the states or say the deed to a property.  

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Posted (edited)

So no fundamental differences with motor vehicles  from what we do in British Columbia. We don't sign the Registration itself to transfer , but there is a separate transfer form that must be filled out by both the buyer and seller, then processed by a Govt. insurance agent to transfer the registration.

Here in the case of property titles the home owner never even sees the actual certificate of property title, it stays perminantly in the Land Title office. It is transferred completely behind the scenes by your Lawyer. No chance of a careless owner misplacing or loosing it, rather unlike vehicle documents.

 

 

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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Just my thoughts, folks.  Both the AACA & Library and Research Center fall under the coveted 501c3 "Non-Profit" status with the IRS.  The AACA must be very protective so as not to lose this category for being the media allowing anything illicit.  

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17 hours ago, Haisley said:

Can you sell a car without the title?

 

In some states no. Other states set the price of a car with no title as junk at a certain price. A good practice is never buy a car without a title, and make sure the number on the car is on the title. 

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I played football from 3rd grade thru college (my body shows it 50 years later) and all those years and as far as I know even before that and since then you have to play by the rules. The AACA says selling titles is against the rules. No questions about it if you want to play on the forum just like sports you have to play by the rules. 
Hope you realize you can’t be special and not play by the rules. 
Dave S 

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All right enough beating around the bush.

What the Hell is actually going on.

Someone was, I gather, offering car "titles" for sale in the forum.

AACA management objected.

Everyone has an opinion while knowing little.

So far so Good.........So.

What are the details?

Where do the titles come from?

What states?

What is their value in $

Is it any title or old ones with no DOT record.

Is it legal?

So what's it all about?

Inquiring minds want to know............Bob

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Simple question and hope there is a simple answer. Why is there no uniformity, state to state, or province to province? IMO what we need is one set of rules that applies to all. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to rehash part of the process every several months.

Bill

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30 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Simple question and hope there is a simple answer. Why is there no uniformity, state to state, or province to province? IMO what we need is one set of rules that applies to all. Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to rehash part of the process every several months.

Bill

 

There are incredible differences between states in terms of economies, demographics, incomes, geography, culture, weather, and the list goes on and on.  This is why we have the electoral college in elections.   The world is getting smaller, so questions like these come up more often than ever.  If there was a thing that one would think would be consistent, yet is not, it arguable would be documenting vehicle ownership.  The administration and enforcement of it could and would obviously still vary, but one common way to determine ownership would make sense.  Cars are bought, sold, and traded across state lines like never before.

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