The Sale of Car Titles is Prohibited

[mercer09]

was just told I would be banned for listing and selling of car titles.............

 

never knew this was a problem till today, so I am saying good bye. Was nice interacting with all of you the last few years, but I have no interest in censorship in this regard.

 

sad the group keeps getting smaller, but I guess it is the way it is.

 

a few of you should be quite happy!

 

take care.

[plymouthcranbrook]

Sorry to see you go, have enjoyed your posts. Be well and happy.

[ted sweet]

maybe because selling a title with no car is illegal

[yachtflame]

So is speeding, smoking marijuana (in some states), fibbing on taxes, cross walking and spitting in public. I guess we’re all guilty of something!

 Mercer, sorry to see you go!!!

[ted sweet]

so you suport title fraud?

[yachtflame]

No, I support people that have a car in a titled state being able to actually “own” their car. 
 I’m sure you’ve bought parts for your car that actually weren’t on your car when it was originally purchased. Is that fraud? Are you part of a conspiracy? 
 Sometimes one needs to sit back, take a deep breath and let others live!

[Peter Gariepy]

Yachtflame,

I can no more condone or look the other way on the sale of titles than i can can stolen parts. Before you say "let others live" you need to consider that!

 

Merced09,

Yes. Title sales are illegal.

You were informed (privately) that if you continued you'd be banned.

Your stab at the forum usage seems petty, and also incorrect.

If you chose to leave the forum so be it. 

Otherwise, simply follow the forum rules, including refraining from attempting to sell car titles or any other illegal activity.

 

[caddyshack]

Well said Peter.

Could not agree more. 

[Haisley]

Can you sell a car without the title?

[C Carl]

Please don't leave us, Ronn. I didn't know anything about titles, so wasn't aware of any problem. I like your outlook on things, and I am very sure I would not be the only one to miss you. Of course since there are forum rules, that is the way it has to be. I don't see anyone asking you to leave, and you should stick around. You don't have to feel bad, or whatever, just stay with us and follow the forum rules. OK ?                       Just another one of your forum friends,     -    Cadillac Carl 

[1937hd45]

Selling car titles on other Forums is also cause for getting Banned. Guess I'm lucky living in Connecticut there is no title BS. 

 

Bob 

[TTR]

1 hour ago, Haisley said:

Can you sell a car without the title?

Well, without a (Government issued and approved) title how does one prove its theirs to sell and/or doesn’t have liens held against it.

Would you buy one without it ?
Can anyone one sell real estate without a clear deed or title ?

Edited March 23, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Used to be,(maybe still is), cars could be sold and registered in Washington without title. Title would be issued after 3 years. I have done it. Works for a keeper, and sure helps if you know/trust the seller.    -   Carl 

[Bloo]

This is true but, you have to buy tags for it for those 3 years (plus a significant fee), and if someone shows up with a title, it's theirs. I wouldn't want to sink much money into it until I had clear title. Also, I don't think I would want to be caught hauling a car on a trailer in Washington that I couldn't prove I owned. You may recall that in the old days (and maybe still) you couldn't even GET RID of one without a title. Washington probably has the highest number of sawzalls per capita in the nation. Nuff said.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Mercer, I also would prefer you not go.

That said, in some states, it is illegal to sell an unattached old title as anything but a historic piece of paper. The problem here, is that there is no uniformity from state to state. In some ways that IS a wonderful thing. So many states have so many really BAD laws, especially concerning automobile titles, can you imagine what it would be like for all of us if all the worst laws were enacted for all states? Unfortunately, at least up to a few years ago, and I hear rumors still, a few states actually encourage residents to use unattached titles as the primary means of resurrecting a title for a car that has none. 

This is one area where Califunny (as much as I generally do not like the state!) is alright to deal with. A title CAN be LEGALLY "regenerated" by anyone that knows the basics of how. I am NOT an expert on all the various laws from state to state (hire a bunch of expensive attorneys if you want to know that much). But I have been connected to many hobbyists from coast to coast for most of fifty years. I listen. I hear horror stories in all extremes dealing with rules in one state not being compatible in other states. Many states had little or no title at all until only a few decades ago. Many states still don't require them for cars built before some given year.

What? Just because state "A" never issued a title or registration, or kept no records for something lost fifty years ago, the car should simply be scrapped? It cannot be owned or sold to an honest person two states over?

In some ways, I wish this problem could be corrected. Other ways, I sincerely fear what the universal rules could become. Personal property rights are among the most important of our Constitutional RIGHTS! Regardless of what governmental body is infringing on them.

 

I also KNOW that the AACA must tread lightly here. Peter G MUST do here what must be done for the betterment of the club coast to coast.

However, Mercer, I do like reading your posts and comments.

Edited March 23, 2020 by wayne sheldon (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Stick around mercer09, I enjoy reading your posts.

[Restorer32]

While I agree with prohibiting the sale of titles on these forums I believe you will find that selling titles is NOT illegal. What IS illegal is using a title for fraudulent purposes, a subtle but distinct difference. Same with VIN tags. It is not illegal to remove a VIN tag. It only becomes illegal if that tag is used for fraudulent purposes.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Sorry to lose you here Ronn.  Hope you reconsider forum participation, your insight will be missed.

[Bhigdog]

It would be a lot more fun staying and doing work-arounds .............Bob

[Mark Wetherbee]

I hate to see you go too, your knowledge and comments are appreciated. 
 

However, with the laws being different In almost every state and country this forum is being accessed in, it actually could happen that the club and forum wind up in the middle of Litigation regarding fraudulent claims of car ownership whereas the AACA could be held accountable if not totally disbanded should it continue to allow the activity to persist.

 

Nothing says if you have an old title without a car that the car doesn’t actually exist in a non-title state. Or even more likely is titled in a state under a warranty title which was forced through by many states so they could suck another $50 every time a car sold... believe me, I had quite the hassle getting one in Massachusetts when they revoked the 15 year rule!

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

I agree that it would be a shame to leave over this. I have periodically taken breaks when the forum became a little too overwhelming for me, and I was always welcomed back with open arms by the good people here. This is a community and regardless of our differences, we seem to embrace each other here as fellow old car fans. That's rather rare, both in the real world and online. Yes, sometimes it may feel like you've got a target painted on your forehead, but the 10% rough areas are worth the 90% gold.

 

I would not, however, refer to this as censorship--it isn't the government telling you what you can say. The AACA gets to set their own rules for their forum--they're paying the bills. Censorship does not apply to private enterprise. There's a very big gray area around title sales and it can indeed lead to unethical and potentially illegal behavior. It's probably not a crime to sell them, but I would wager that many people buying them are not buying them for garage art. It's a legally ambiguous area that I'm sure the club doesn't want to be even tangentially involved in given the significant consequences. I was recently given a similar ultimatum here that was more or less phrased like the old time gangsters shaking people down by saying, "Gee, mister, wouldn't it be a shame if your shop burned down?" While it is almost always my first instinct to push back, it's important to remember this is the AACA's field and their equipment, so we gotta play by their rules. I accept that as a fair trade-off, even if I didn't particularly care for the way that message was delivered.

 

Enforcement of rules is why this place is good. Sometimes you don't agree with the rules, but that's how the world works. Sometimes you don't like the messenger, but not everyone is compatible with everyone else. You do the best you can and take the good where you can find it. As I said, the good here vastly outweighs the hassles, and your contributions have value.

Take a break, cool off, and come back. You will be welcomed.

[Pilgrim65]

I’m just an observer on this one being from Uk and knowing  little about  US car title deeds , although I have four copies  , two for  cars since sold abroad and which now have new documents in their new countries. Therefore  , I wonder if similar transactions have generated similar unattached titles circulating the US for cars long since gone to American car lovers like me throughout the world and subsequently have passed car on again with their new title , not their old US original.

cheers

pilgrim

[46 woodie]

It all started several year's ago when a well known car builder on the west coast was busted for using titles that he purchased to register the custom cars he was building. After that episode you couldn't find a title for sale. After a few years they started to reappear at some swap meets with a disclaimer that "titles were only to be purchased as a collectors item and not to register a vehicle". There are people that collect titles and don't use them for illegally registering a car. That being said, it's not illegal to sell a title. It is illegal to use the numbers on a purchased title to stamp those numbers into a chassis of a car and to sell or register the car. I can understand why the A.A.C.A does not someone using their site to promote something that could be used illegally.  I certainly wouldn't quit this site over this Mercer. Think about this, suppose someone did steal a car and re-stamp the chassis and register the car illegally. He could implicate you in the crime. Simply not worth it.

 

[John Kelso]

If you ever tried to convince an agent at PennDot that all you had for your 1906 Buick was a bill of sale because the title had long ago dissappeared

you might look at this subject differently. Not usually a problem for most of the cars I see on owners lists.  Unfortunately another service to the hobby is gone.

 

[1912Staver]

There are a few things that are not ideal with life in Canada. But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada.  It really puts the owner of very old cars in a spot when you must have a title but in many cases they didn't even exist back beyond a certain point in time or in certain States, or with a certain age of car, .

 And I thought Kafka understood about all there was to know about dealing with bureaucracy. He could have written a few further volumes just about vintage cars and the DMV.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 23, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JACK M]

9 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

There are a few things that are not ideal with life in Canada. But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada.  It really puts the owner of very old cars in a spot when you must have a title but in many cases they didn't even exist back beyond a certain point in time or in certain States, or with a certain age of car, .

 And I thought Kafka understood about all there was to know about dealing with bureaucracy. He could have written a few further volumes just about vintage cars and the DMV.

 

Greg in Canada

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

[TTR]

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

While I agree with prohibiting the sale of titles on these forums I believe you will find that selling titles is NOT illegal. What IS illegal is using a title for fraudulent purposes, a subtle but distinct difference. Same with VIN tags. It is not illegal to remove a VIN tag. It only becomes illegal if that tag is used for fraudulent purposes.

While I'm not a lawyer (far from it), I believe offering to sell titles (or VIN tags) for vehicles they were not originally issued for might be considered "fraudulent purpose", hence illegal or at least unethical practice.

I also believe vehicle titles might constitute as government issued (and owned ?) legal documents, which should be surrendered back to respective agencies/authorities should the vehicles listed in them become permanently removed from their jurisdiction, whether by selling/transferring it to another jurisdiction (i.e. country or State) or parting it out (salvage/wrecking yards, etc).

I know several law abiding salvage/wrecking yard owners/operators in various parts of the world who will not accept vehicles without their correct/legal titles, as they are expected to have them on file for each vehicle in their inventory and/or surrender them back to government agencies as part of their normal course of business.

 

Also, just because a vehicle has a title issued by some other jurisdiction (country or State), it may not always be enough.

Just a few years ago, some friends became embroiled in a very complicated, costly and time consuming legal wrangling. Here's somewhat simplified synopsis:

About 30+ years ago, some European enthusiast bought a vintage car (with a title) in the U.S. and had it shipped to his native country, where it eventually got registered with a new title issued by local authorities. While those authorities didn't insist on surrendering the U.S. title, it essentially became useless(?).

Over the following years/decades, the car changed owners on several occasions and eventually was accepted/invited to participate in a vintage driving event in Latin America. 

It was then decided to ship car back to U.S. for some final prep and easier transportation access to said event. After the event participation, the car was returned to U.S. before shipping it back to Europe.

So now, after multiple border and continent crossings in past several decades and already in a container, at the docks, destined back to its home for past 3+ decades, U.S. authorities suddenly discovered said vehicle having been reported stolen (in the U.S.) over 40 years ago and prevented its departure until everything got cleared ...

[just me]

Mercer09

-titles

 

Hang in there buddy! 

 

Charley

Edited March 23, 2020 by just me (see edit history)

[Mark Wetherbee]

When I bought my Pierce-Arrow on eBay it came from New York which is a Bill-of-sale state that does use their registration paperwork to transfer ownership. Knowing horror stories about North Carolina registration issues I asked for a notarized bill of sale to accompany that paperwork as well as a copy of anything showing his purchase.
 

This is what came as prior ownership proof, and is now stored in my fireproof safe along with my new North Carolina title.

 

Now let’s say he transfers with JUST the bill of sale and gives this to a buddy, then that buddy decided to claim ownership of my car once I dropped thousands into it, where would I be? You bet I’d be totally f**ked and out some $25-30k

I agree it’s not selling that is the issue, but what that purchaser does with it...

[1912Staver]

46 minutes ago, JACK M said:

 

I bought an old (well 70s ) Chrysler from a Canadian the wintered in Palm Springs.

He told me  (and supplied insurance papers) that in Canada they used insurance documents to prove ownership.

What a crock. I had to wholesale that thing sans title via eBay clearly indicating the situation. That guy I bought it from refused to even send me a bill of sale as he had already given me his paper work.

I know, I know, buyer beware.

Let the next guy deal with it. He could probably buy a title.

I don't have time to mess with title issues here in Oregon.

 

 

Insurance documents would be very questionable. Like the U.S. there are definitely Province to Province differences. But in Canada we generally use a registration document issued by whatever form our Provincial Motor Vehicles dept. takes.

Some Provinces have Provincial Gvmt. insurance rather than the private insurance in most States, but in B.C. at least the Registration is a separate part of the document that MAY as well be your insurance.

However in many cases getting a replacement document is easy and straightforward. Even if no paperwork exists; the case with many older vintage cars , there is generally a remedy that does not involve lawyers, Judges, Court Orders,

the posting of Bond's and all the other extreme solutions that seem to be required in several U.S. State jurisdictions. Yes, no paperwork in Canada is a hassle, but not a brick wall.

The seller should have provided you with his home Provinces registration document and the required transfer of ownership form. Unfortunately it definitely appears they took advantage of you in this sale.

Once the transfer of ownership takes place it does not matter what old documentation is produced by someone claiming the car. It has been sold and legally transferred.

An exception would occur if a past owner reported the car stolen to the Police, but pretty unlikely.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited March 23, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[TTR]

21 minutes ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

... it’s not selling that is the issue, but what that purchaser does with it...

I disagree a little.

I believe the issue here is AACA or this website not wanting to be considered accomplishes and/or to be held liable for providing a platform for someone conducting what could be considered (or perhaps is ?) illegal activity.

Edited March 23, 2020 by TTR (see edit history)

[A. Ballard 35R]

1 hour ago, JAK said:

If you ever tried to convince an agent at PennDot that all you had for your 1906 Buick was a bill of sale because the title had long ago dissappeared

you might look at this subject differently. Not usually a problem for most of the cars I see on owners lists.  Unfortunately another service to the hobby is gone.

 

 

That's why you don't buy cars without titles. Having dealt with PeenDot for for over 60 years and my father for years before that, they can be a PIA; however, it is important that you know that you don't have a stolen vehicle, regardless of age. There are legitmate ways in PA to get a new title without committing a crime. Very difficult to call the practice of forging paperwork and altering vehicle identification a service to the hobby.

 

[Grimy]

25 minutes ago, Mark Wetherbee said:

This is what came as prior ownership proof, and is now stored in my fireproof safe along with my new North Carolina title.

Mark, the six-digit number on your Missouri title is an ENGINE number as was the case in many states for decades.  The SERIAL number on Pierces from 1929-1938 is seven digits.  Now, over the years, engines have been changed and the engine in the car no longer bears the number on the title/registration/insurance documents--and there is no documentation.  For Pierce owners, it's useful to register with the Pierce-Arrow Society the three different numbers that each 1920-1938 Pierce originally bore from the factory:  serial, engine, and body numbers.  The Society maintains records, on only the basis of what members report, of changes to engine numbers when there have been substitutions.  In one case I was able to help with, a factory body number had been used by some previous owner as the serial number, and we were able to provide documentation to straighten that mess out.

[KRK Sr.]

In March of 2017, your Moderators and those above us discussed and came up with this policy, the offenders were warned, and posts deleted. Nothing has changed since then. Some posters think we will forget or not find them? To the "repeat offenders" who won't accept AACA's policy: go sell them on E-bay and pay the fees. Peter is not the bad guy here. Karl

[MochetVelo]

2 hours ago, JAK said:

If you ever tried to convince an agent at PennDot that all you had for your 1906 Buick was a bill of sale because the title had long ago dissappeared

you might look at this subject differently. Not usually a problem for most of the cars I see on owners lists.  Unfortunately another service to the hobby is gone.

 

...especially because most states didn't issue titles in 1906! I've purchased several old cars with bad titles or no titles, and I've always gotten legit titles for them. I do have to hire (an AACA member) lawyer and pay court fees, but I think that is cheaper than being busted for faking a title. That said, I wish PennDOT would have more understanding of our antiques.

 

Phil

[Gunsmoke]

AACA has made the correct and long overdue decision. Using this very valuable website to conduct possibly "shady business" at best should be prohibited, none of us would want to fall victim to such. As indicated, the member was privately asked to desist and he declined. End of story. I suggest if members want to reminisce about title/ownership/state differences/annoyances/skirting the laws etc, someone start a new thread. Thanks to our leadership.

[60FlatTop]

I like reading Mercer's posts. And I mean a lot more than other's.

 

There are some regulations and laws that impede some innocent things an honest person wants to do. By the time I left High School  my grandfather and the people I worked with through him had shown me the ropes. And I am a lot older and more experienced now. Two honest people can make a beneficial and just exchange. With law there is only the law, and seldom justice.

 

I am reminded of my grandfather after my grandmother's death. He called women over 40 cemetery weeds. He wanted a wife but was scared an older one might die. Young waitresses attracted him. He had business cards printed saying he was an affiliate of MGM Studios. I told him "Jerry, I think you can get into trouble with that. I'd say they were against the law." He looked me right in the eye and as serious as possible informed me  "When I bought my first movie ticket I became an affiliate of MGM". That was about 30 years ago and I can't deny I may have used that reasoning sometime in the intervening years.

 

Of course, a search in the For Sale section ain't gonna bring up my name. This is a tough crowd. And as my grandfather said "Don't flirt with a rattlesnake".

Bernie

Edited March 23, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Mercer has some good opinions and some

good insights.  I recommend:  Don't offer titles

here, and stick around to participate with your

friends.  Associating with other members with

the same interests always does a person good.

[Joe in Canada]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada. 

Sorry you are not correct this time as every Province is different. Here in Ontario you need an ownership / title. 

[Mark Wetherbee]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

I disagree a little.

I believe the issue here is AACA or this website not wanting to be considered accomplishes and/or to be held liable for providing a platform for someone conducting what could be considered (or perhaps is ?) illegal activity.

In my first post I fully agree with and support the AACA’s decision, what you quoted from is the argument those who disagree are touting. My second post was trying to make a point that a car can exist in two sets of circumstances at the same time and the outdated paperwork can have a very negative impact on future transactions, it was in no way intended to argue the rules.

 

Grimy, my car is in the PAS database and was purchased from a previous member that Zephyr and you most likely knew better than I do. The little discrepancy of engine vs vin on the paperwork was noted by the state trooper that physically verified the car and with everything matched up he issued the new title. I was very happy he didn’t need the old title as it has historic value with the car, but that was after it was voided on the back and reference made to the new title. If the titles being sold as “historical documents” were likewise voided in pen on the back would we still be having any discussion here???