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1929 Studebaker President 8 Roadster


Touts

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Still interested!

 

(I was hoping my silly comment would be at the bottom of the previous page where it would soon be lost, not at the top of a fresh page where it might be seen for months!) (By the way, TAKerry's "x2" was posted before I added this editorial comment.)

Edited by wayne sheldon
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Great looking recovery for a rare car. Interesting discussion on rumble seat drainage.

 

Been looking at similar issue for my 1931 Chrysler CD8 Roadster. There is a channel at front edge of rumble seat opening and along each side, curving down to to drain holes fitted with short piece of metal tube for fitting a rubber drain hose to exit through floor behind seat back. However, there is no indication of any way of collecting water that goes through seam at back of rumble seat lid, a 38" wide distance with a gap of perhaps 1/8". May try to figure out an "evaporation tray" of some sort that can sit there without interfering with operation of lid. or just secure a plastic tray on floor to collect any water and have it evaporate, or put small drain hole with screen to prevent bugs etc. Anyone or any cars found solutions for this issue?

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2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Still interested!

 

(I was hoping my silly comment would be at the bottom of the previous page where it would soon be lost, not at the top of a fresh page where it might be seen for months!) (By the way, TAKerry's "x2" was posted before I added this editorial comment.)

Thanks Wayne, the reason I keep posting is,  that as I previously mentioned the information that was given throughout this post is quite detailed 

 

The people and owners who contributed are very knowledgeable and experienced .

 

As there are so few FA Presidents and the knowledge base is limited.

I’m hoping that others may do as I do revisit the thread .
Each time I do I learn something new.

Cheers. frank 

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5 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Great looking recovery for a rare car. Interesting discussion on rumble seat drainage.

 

Been looking at similar issue for my 1931 Chrysler CD8 Roadster. There is a channel at front edge of rumble seat opening and along each side, curving down to to drain holes fitted with short piece of metal tube for fitting a rubber drain hose to exit through floor behind seat back. However, there is no indication of any way of collecting water that goes through seam at back of rumble seat lid, a 38" wide distance with a gap of perhaps 1/8". May try to figure out an "evaporation tray" of some sort that can sit there without interfering with operation of lid. or just secure a plastic tray on floor to collect any water and have it evaporate, or put small drain hole with screen to prevent bugs etc. Anyone or any cars found solutions for this issue?

I’m no expert, however the setup your describing appears to be typical for vehicles of that period from my observations.

No Channels as was the case with my car, was never the case.

 

The way the situation was handled with my car was that, where the water flowed as you said , an enclosed area was specifically made to the Floorpan to capture any/all water.  The water would simply exit out via two drainage holes.

The catchment area made “should”fully contain the water which would allow me to  keep my eye on it and service the area as it is accessible.
I like the idea of keeping the water contained and not swishing around.

 

I guess I could put additional tray of sorts though I think it might be okay.

 

As it is a Roadster I would be hesitant to go cruising in the rain.

 

I’ll post a couple photos of the area in due course if you like.

Good luck with it.

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 The area behind the rumble seat back in my car is not accessible without removing the seat back, and even then, you would need to hold the lid in a partially open position to gain even a limited access. So creating a rust proof tray with some form of drainage thru floor pan may be best option. Even washing car can cause water to get into this space. I guess these cars really were intended for warm dry climates! 

Edited by Gunsmoke (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

I guess these cars really were intended for warm dry climates! 

and to be replaced in a few years. 

 

My 31 Chevy Cabriolet is the same way, just drains in the back and you can't get to it. Most are all rotted out in that area before restoration. 

 

Dave

Edited by Dave39MD (see edit history)
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To add to the conversation about rain channels, for reference these are the ones in the rumble seat area of my 1929 Studebaker President FH Cabriolet. The water runs down to the inside rear of the car and collects in an area that is at the very back under the rumble seat. There are two holes on either side of the water collection area for the water to escape to the ground, and there is about a one inch metal piece which runs the length of the width of the body to prevent any water from coming forward into the rumble seat passengers area.20230613_083309.jpg

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Edited by 29StudiePrez (see edit history)
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On 6/14/2023 at 4:41 AM, 29StudiePrez said:

To add to the conversation about rain channels, for reference these are the ones in the rumble seat area of my 1929 Studebaker President FH Cabriolet. The water runs down to the inside rear of the car and collects in an area that is at the very back under the rumble seat. There are two holes on either side of the water collection area for the water to escape to the ground, and there is about a one inch metal piece which runs the length of the width of the body to prevent any water from coming forward into the rumble seat passengers area.20230613_083309.jpg

20230613_083324.jpg

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Thanks for your detailed information. Basically that is the way the coach builder has addressed the situation.

 

As you may recall I had no Channels at all.

 

Although primitive, I don’t perceive any major problems with this system  and fits in well with my attempts to maintain originality.

Edited by Touts
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Hi All, 

Today I followed up from my early attempt to sort out my Carburetor dilemma.

 

Currently I’m working on three seperate options in an attempt to solve my carburettor woes. 

.

The option to have my UU2 and Spare units rebuilt was always my preferred method moving forward.

 

I was told that Both Casings were unsatisfactory. The Carburetor shop is very highly regarded so I didn’t question their decision and asked them to return them.

 

Would anyone have any updated information about this elusive Carburetor? 

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3 hours ago, Touts said:

Hi All, 

Today I followed up from my early attempt to sort out my Carburetor dilemma.

 

Currently I’m working on three seperate options in an attempt to solve my carburettor woes. 

.

The option to have my UU2 and Spare units rebuilt was always my preferred method moving forward.

 

I was told that Both Casings were unsatisfactory. The Carburetor shop is very highly regarded so I didn’t question their decision and asked them to return them.

 

Would anyone have any updated information about this elusive Carburetor? 

It depends on whether you want something 'original', or at least looks original, or you want practicality. Our next project is a new, rebuilt engine for my GE Dictator. The intention is to run a modern down draught Weber two barrel carb on it. Apparently it should give a 50% improvement in economy.

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3 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

It depends on whether you want something 'original', or at least looks original, or you want practicality. Our next project is a new, rebuilt engine for my GE Dictator. The intention is to run a modern down draught Weber two barrel carb on it. Apparently it should give a 50% improvement in economy.

Thanks for your reply reply.

I have been following a couple of different options.

 

The current option is similar to the direction you have just described. Of course originality is my main focus.

Yesterday I picked up the manifolds that turned out great which will enable me to use a Downdraft X 2 Barrel Carburetor.

 

I have all the original parts stored.

 

If I had the opportunity I would love to be able to have the UU2’s restored to an acceptable condition. I would jump at this option or some reason.

 

The interest in these Carburettors appears to dates back as they were apparently used on high end cars including Buggati and Duesenburg cars .

This has led me to to believe that perhaps high end owners may have information.

Cheers.

 

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4 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

It depends on whether you want something 'original', or at least looks original, or you want practicality. Our next project is a new, rebuilt engine for my GE Dictator. The intention is to run a modern down draught Weber two barrel carb on it. Apparently it should give a 50% improvement in economy.

There is a company in Australia (see link below) that is has been recasting in aluminum the stromberg UX2 bodies that were originally used on these cars. Kevin Wise in Washington recently purchased on of these as a complete unit and with one slight adjustment to one of the venturi's he is very happy with the results and the fact that the car, a 1929 Dictator Cabriolet, is back to having its originality minus the headache of the pot metal Carburetor housing. This company is about to go out of business and I am also getting one of these recast housings for the UX2 for my daughter's 1930 Commander before they are unavailable anymore.

 

https://vintageandclassicreproductions.com/

Edited by 29StudiePrez (see edit history)
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In 1931, Studebaker switched from the UU-2 Stromberg to the UUR-2 Stromberg. The "R" in the UUR-2 means revised.

 

The 1931 carb was Studebaker part number 173100 (LHD) and 173101 (RHD).

The 1932 UUR-2 was Studebaker part number 174006.

 

In 1933, Studebaker switched to the downdraft Stromberg EE-22.

 

In 1936, Stromberg released a replacement UUR-2 for the 1929 President. The Stromberg part number is F-4276. This is basically Studebaker 174006 with a calibration tweak.

 

I am unaware of any reproduction UU-2 castings. We looked at doing it 40 years ago, and it was simply not cost effective to do so. With modern 3-D printing techniques? Maybe, but that is for a younger enthusiast to explore.

 

The UUR-2's are around (I am sold out, don't ask), and are updraft just like the UU-2 (in fact, pretty much a bolt-on swap if you get the proper UUR-2).

 

With you being in Australia, carburetor availability for U.S. carburetors is probably limited; but if it were a 2-barrel downdraft conversion here in the States, I would start with either a Stromberg AAV series or Carter WD-0 series before I would even think about the possibility of considering the Weber.

 

Jon

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On 6/23/2023 at 6:40 AM, carbking said:

In 1931, Studebaker switched from the UU-2 Stromberg to the UUR-2 Stromberg. The "R" in the UUR-2 means revised.

 

The 1931 carb was Studebaker part number 173100 (LHD) and 173101 (RHD).

The 1932 UUR-2 was Studebaker part number 174006.

 

In 1933, Studebaker switched to the downdraft Stromberg EE-22.

 

In 1936, Stromberg released a replacement UUR-2 for the 1929 President. The Stromberg part number is F-4276. This is basically Studebaker 174006 with a calibration tweak.

 

I am unaware of any reproduction UU-2 castings. We looked at doing it 40 years ago, and it was simply not cost effective to do so. With modern 3-D printing techniques? Maybe, but that is for a younger enthusiast to explore.

 

The UUR-2's are around (I am sold out, don't ask), and are updraft just like the UU-2 (in fact, pretty much a bolt-on swap if you get the proper UUR-2).

 

With you being in Australia, carburetor availability for U.S. carburetors is probably limited; but if it were a 2-barrel downdraft conversion here in the States, I would start with either a Stromberg AAV series or Carter WD-0 series before I would even think about the possibility of considering the Weber.

 

Jon

 

So I have received a reply from Glenn at Vintage and Classic Reproductions, QLD, Australia.

(Attached Below)

Their Website is well worth a look.

 

I would like to thank StudePrez and Jon from CarbKing for their time and accurate input.

 

As an amateur I confess the specific difference between the different types used and interchangeably and compatibility requires additional research on my side.

 

I guess my initial knee jerk question is weather U2 - UX2 Carburetor can have relevance to my UU2 dilemma .

 

I’m currently proceeding in a direction that is acceptable to me and we’ll see how it all pans out.

 

COPY REPLY

“HI Frank,

We only remake the U2 and UX2 Stromberg carby I did this for my own cars some 35years ago, it was a massive job and will not do any new ones.

 

Yours in Vintage Motoring

Glenn and Rosemary Smith”

 

I hope the information provided can help someone.

frank

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The company noted above is going out of business and its a shame, another resource dying for the old car hobby, I am very surprised over the past 40yrs they thought the demand for a re-cast body on the UU2 was not cost effective as I believe there always has been a big demand for replacement of the pot metal body. This carb was used by the Studebaker President, Pierce Arrows, Marmons and even the Dusenberg which to the dismay of Studebaker owners is why that carb on Ebay fetches such high dollars. Hopefully someone buys the business as the current owners retire, and maybe some fresh blood will see the value in re-casting and manufacturing a reproduction uu2 body and parts.

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Frank - Stromberg more or less codified their model types:

 

The first letter, if not doubled, is for a single barrel carburetor of the type of the letter (U-2)

The first letter, if doubled, is for a two barrel carburetor of the type of the letter (UU-2)

The first different letter would further define the model (UX-2 - the X meaning cross-flange, UT-2 - the T meaning for truck use)

The number following the letter(s) in virtually all cases is the S.A.E. flange size (UU-2 - the S.A.E. size 2 was 1 1/4 nominal)

 

The above just scratches the surface, more information on model identification is under "articles" on my website.

 

29StudiePrez -

 

There is SOME demand for UU-2 bowls, agreed, BUT:

 

We have the original drawings, so costs (then) for us would probably be at a minimum (ha, ha).

 

Many enthusiasts throw around terms like "UU-2" as being interchangeable; but there are four different bowl castings alone!

 

I won't even post the cost of the dies, as those who have never done this wouldn't believe the number anyway, but if we paid up front to have the dies produced, our COST on a single bowl was $800 (IF WE ORDERED 100 AT THE SAME TIME!). Do the math!

 

Remember, this is the just the cost for a bowl, not counting a very large initial investment in tooling.

 

Remember, four different bowls. Is the enthusiast going to pay a large number of dollars for the WRONG bowl?

 

If I had done this, the Studebaker bowl would NOT have been the one I would have done (unique to Studebaker).

 

The investment to do this 40 years ago simply was not worth the return I thought was possible.

 

We also checked the Stromberg EE-3, as there is significantly more demand; but still insufficient to justify the investment.

 

MAYBE, with 3-D printing, I don't know, but maybe. Will leave that option to a younger enthusiast.

 

Also maybe, but I won't go there, is having them done outside of the U.S.A.

 

Jon

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I noted that Jon had previously offered a pair of UU-2 carbs for sale and posted a number of photos.

Looking at the photos, one can see how complicated those parts are. While they currently could be 3D printed, they would all need complex machining to get flat, smooth mating surfaces and many holes need drilling and tapping. That is the tooling that would drive up the costs even using 3D printed raw parts. Maybe it would be possible to make a couple of small parts to repair an old carb, but the thought of making the main body makes my head spin. There are many reasons why cars were switched from updraft carbs to downdraft, but that was 90 years ago. 

 

Will a downdraft manifold from a 1933 President bolt on to the 1928/1929 block?  Even finding one of those could be tough. 

 

There is the new Daytona Zenith updraft carb, said to be good for engines up to 300 cu in, but might still be OK on Touts engine. 

https://daytonaparts.com/m/replacement_carburetor_zenith.html

 

Edited by Gary_Ash (see edit history)
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A 1-barrel to 2-barrel adaptor is something that we CAN 3D print and easily machine! The 337 cu in engine is low compression, doesn't get to high rpm, doesn't breathe well, should be able to get by on about 250 cfm (or less) of carb for its 114 hp rating.  I wonder how much flow the Daytona carb can deliver? 

      required carb flow = displacement in cu in x RPM X efficiency/3456 = 337 x 3200 x 0.75/3456 = 234 cfm.  

 

GM bought a 1932 Studebaker and did extensive testing on the engine.  I have a copy of their technical report.  It shows the volumetric efficiency of the stock engine dropped to 65% at 3200 rpm and was down to 62% at 3500 rpm so the low flows should be OK. In the Studebaker Indy cars using the 337 cu in engine, there were four carbs and output was about 200 hp at 4400 rpm with a 7.5:1 head.

 

Studebaker8enginetestGM1932.jpg.6b65e7bf24d066c05d49ff59ae97a1e7.jpg 

Some test data from General Motors testing of a 1932 Studebaker 337 cu in straight 8.

See particularly the data for Observed Volumetric Efficiency %.

 

The Daytona Parts website does show photos of the updraft carb installed on a 1932 Auburn straight 8 and a 1929 Franklin, as well as on other cars.  The Auburn 8 had less displacement than the Studebaker 337.

 

Daytonaupdrafton1932Auburn8.jpg.425f07c534f92d1c3ced16e4866ef46d.jpg

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Frank - to your "knee jerk".

 

Both the U-2 and UX-2 carbs are single barrel; the UU-2 is a two barrel.

 

Gary -

 

At the same time we investigated having the UU-2 reproduced, we also did quite a bit of testing on trying to use a single barrel carburetor (at the time, we had just purchased a BUNCH of new old stock replacement size 3 single barrels).

 

Basically, we found it was a bad idea on a downdraft application, and even worse on an updraft.

 

To work at all, the adapter needed to be formed such that the lines gradually blended from the one barrel to the two barrel. A minimum of 4 inches of length gave fair results on a downdraft application, not good, but acceptable for around town.

 

The updraft application with the increased height really effected the starting capability of the engine. Once started, again, fair, not good, but fair results.

 

Hopefully, the moderators will cut me a little slack with my next comment.

 

We found a MUCH better solution than the 1->2 adapter was to custom make an intake manifold that would accept TWO single barrel carbs for the updraft applications.

 

For the downdraft applications, LOTS of newer two-barrel carbs that can easily be adapted, and work great.

 

For the updraft applications, I was unable to find an inexpensive work-a-round other than the new intake manifold, which is generally not difficult (think electrical aluminum conduit).

 

Jon

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On 6/23/2023 at 6:40 AM, carbking said:

 

With you being in Australia, carburetor availability for U.S. carburetors is probably limited; but if it were a 2-barrel downdraft conversion here in the States, I would start 

My most surprising observation is the vintage car history and pre war activity in this region cannot be ignored or underestimated, it’s amazing.


With my FAT-2 Custom Studebaker Roadster now fitted with its original second generation freshly rebuilt FB 1929 Engine It seems to me that There must be a point where practicality comes into play, that is if one is to enjoy the actual motoring.

 

The advancements in Carburettors for development is obvious.

 

It appears that the Studebaker factory Manifolds/ Carburettors supplied early and used locally was widespread and varied.


With Preservation always a constant, I am moving forward in this direction.

 

Photo: Factory Manifolds Locally supplied. Updraft Carburetor used.

IMG_8171.jpeg.c0fe780d7fea27a07210ba43f123ac0c.jpeg

 

Photo : Downdraft Carburetor modification currently being investigated utilising 2X Barrel Downdraft setup, TBA on final outcome.


IMG_8173.jpeg.1ae6a4f123f9469312cb63433a6938c5.jpeg
 

Photo: Manifolds used off my Studebaker FH Parts car undergoing restoration and modifications.
 

IMG_7898.jpeg.f661fb44d0c2921216b82702403d9a38.jpeg

IMG_8170.png

Edited by Touts (see edit history)
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Why stop at two carbs when you can have four of them (downdraft) on a Studebaker 337, as they did at Indy in 1931-33?  But, I take Jon's points on adapting an updraft 1-barrel carb.  I can't believe how many right-angle corners are in that locally-supplied manifold that is pictured above.

 

And, Frank, I've been to Katoomba a couple of times, liked the Carrington Hotel there, though the Lilianfels Resort was more comfortable.

 

Studebaker337engine-4carbs.JPG.2ae3d5eefec87c33c22e1daa27a5f551.JPG

Studebaker 337 straight 8 with four carbs on elbows in Studebaker Indy car #37.  I think these are Stromberg EX-32 carbs.  Copper tubes are for vacuum balance connecting #1 to #4 and #2 to #3.  Each carb serves two cylinders via the four intake ports in the block.

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F &J, that's a good scenario and could well right, but I think the car would have been converted earlier then that, I guess we'll never know. My father found a 1921 Stutz tourer in Roma Queensland in  the late sixties that had been converted to a ute (pickup). He was fortunate the owner had kept the tub to use on the verandah of his homestead as a lounge chair. The rear doors were in the barn and the robe rail was being used as towel rack in  the bathroom, see pica.

stutz-kdh-01.jpg

stutz-kdh-carss-park.jpg

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3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:

Why stop at two carbs when you can have four of them (downdraft) on a Studebaker 337, as they did at Indy in 1931-33?  But, I take Jon's points on adapting an updraft 1-barrel carb.  I can't believe how many right-angle corners are in that locally-supplied manifold that is pictured above.

 

Studebaker337engine-4carbs.JPG.2ae3d5eefec87c33c22e1daa27a5f551.JPG

Studebaker 337 straight 8 with four carbs on elbows in Studebaker Indy car #37.  I think these are Stromberg EX-32 carbs.  Copper tubes are for vacuum balance connecting #1 to #4 and #2 to #3.  Each carb serves two cylinders via the four intake ports in the block.


I don’t think Gary my ego could handle a X4 Carburettor modifications.

 

I feel the direction I’m pursuing seems to be practical and widely accepted  based on feedback provided.

 

Photo:

This Carter Updraft BB1 Carburettor is what came with the car.IMG_8176.jpeg.c0379d02974bb30fc7c1953e63453102.jpeg

 

Photo: 

Maintaining all original parts with the ability to reverse if required is a priority.

IMG_8174.jpeg.068eb6820d7e4de21f748158d9af2d33.jpeg

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On 6/22/2023 at 7:34 AM, Touts said:

 

Studebaker president 8 blog site

Hi Touts,  Sorry to be coming in so late in the discussion re UU2 Carbs. Re the down draft carburetor question:

 

In 1967, I sent my original UU2 to, KKK Carburetors Ltd  in Long Island NY (long closed)  to be overhauled. I definitely remember saying to them, that I was having internal "leakage" issues.  They recommended that I replace the throttle body with a new brass casting which they made by "lost wax" principle. KKK told me that it might take 6 months to complete the whole job. I was happy that I found someone who could help.

 

So in the meantime,  I experimented with fitting a downdraft carb to my 1930 President 8 while waiting for my reconditioned carburetor. I started the change over by selecting an original  spare "square section" inlet manifold that I had. I blocked off the double ports underneath and machined out two new ports up on the top sides and fitted four studs. The carb I chose was one off an early Holden 253  V8. This carb had two adjustable main jets and it gave me very good reliable service for the next nine months. Please appreciate that I never got the full original performance out of this carburetor, but it was a excellent substitute.

Eventually my UU2 from NY arrived and it was pressed into immediate  service. I sold the modified manifold with its modern carb a few  years ago and that is still running on a local 1930 President eight sedan to this day.     Recently, because of excess wear in my UU2  I got a well known local carburetor shop in Auckland NZ to machined up a new spindle shaft and supply me with two new butterfly's. They recommended that I also fit two new nylon bushes at either end to support the new shaft. They also refaced the air bleed seats, and the totally cleaned it inside and out. Absolutely no issues with that and the results were outstanding. Even the price was right. Recently this particular shop has just completed a similar overhaul on a UU2R carb that is off a friends 1932 Bugatti. Another happy owner.                                                                                                                                  

 

 

 

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