Period images to relieve some of the stress

[58L-Y8]

This is the 1930 P-A Series A convertible coupe by Derham, identified as such by Richard Burns Carson.    Derham built this convertible coupe and the four door convertible phaeton under agreement with Hibbard and Darrin who developed the style, bodied many European chassis with it.   In its four door configuraton, it took the dual cowl phaeton concept further civilizing it with roll-up door windows to mate with the windshields and closer-fitting top.  The stylish flap of material between the windows fills the gap and adds to the cache.  For the convertible coupe, simple, low, sleek rear deck without continued belt molding.  

 

Photos of the other chassis that received one or the other or each of the styles would be welcome: Packard, Stutz, Cadillac, Lincoln, Duesenberg, others you can recall.   The '30 Packard 745 Derham appeared at Hershey in the 1990's, stunning proportions stopped me right in my tracks.

 

Suppose you can tell I particularly like these designs... 

Edited April 13, 2020 by 58L-Y8 (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Hey Guys, the back of the photo of the conv. coupe in pencil says 1930 , but I am not sure who wrote that there- if it was someone at the time or postwar. It is an original print not a later copy. I have period prints of the conv sedans that were just mentioned also on several chassis : 1931 Lincoln K, 1929 Packard 645, Duesenberg model J  and most likely others as well.

When other people my age were buying Beatles and Rolling Stones albums, watching Hogan's Heros on tv I was looking for this old stuff and saved my allowance to buy it , lunch $ I had during college usually went for 1920s pressed steel toys that needed a lot of work and 78 rpm jazz records. My favorite tv show was The Roaring 20's with Dorothy Provine and The Untouchables with Robert Stack - I liked the music and the cars didn't care about the story much. Plus the great movie that got me started on all this "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe, Jack Lemon , Tony Curtis and George Raft. George Raft played a character named Spats Columbo or something like that.  I love spats on shoes.

Yes, I am "flying in a different era, and mindset"  then and  'now' as well, and the plane I am flying in is an open cockpit  bi plane. I like zeppelins too of course, have an original towel out of the Graff Zeppelin in my library hanging up in a frame. Artists have a different view of the world. 🙃

[twin6]

[edinmass]

10 hours ago, Grimy said:

"George, after looking at it closer, the  molding on the top of the door and rear rumble seat area may make this a 1930 custom........also the split bumper makes it a 30 only with the rectangular splash pan light.......thoughts?"

 

The 2-bar bumper means it's a Model 42 (or 1930), the 1931 41 had a wide single bar.  Note the curve of the body behind the top leading into the rumble seat area--that remained for '32 and '33, definitely not on the 1930s.  The rectangular courtesy light was used on 1930 A-only and on 1931 41s and 42s.  I think the 2-toning on the door is leading you/us astray--only the molding itself (about 2") is usually the secondary/fender color and the upper inch or so is the body color on my 1930 B roadster.

 

 

Can't be a Series 42 with that light on the splash apron, thus I agree its a Derham custom body............looks similar to the factory "rip off" design of 1931 Series 41 & 42.

[Gunsmoke]

I know it is blasphemy to many on this particular thread, but I've never been able to understand the styling decision regarding the Pierce Arrow "molded into fender" headlights. While I do realize the P-A's were great cars, (and love the Silver Arrow) this one little wrinkle has always turned me away from them stylistically. I don't know of any other company who adopted this seemingly odd practice, always reminds me of the much later Bugeye Sprites, which were loved or hated often because of those headlights. No offence guys, I'm assuming someone over the years has written a piece on this unique styling exercise. (must have also been a real challenge to do in sheet metal!).

[Walt G]

I know that although the fender/headlamp issue has been mentioned/written about etc often - to me it eventually "grew" on me , don't care for all of them but do a lot. By 1933 the blending of the lamp into the fender really started to work well as a design feature for art deco styling and did so right up until the end of production. I am guessing but as far as I know P-A gave the customer an option of having the regular bar mounted headlamps similar to other cars , so the person buying the car could choose. I know in England that the fender mounted headlamp was against the law .

[alsancle]

Agreed.   But it does make them easy to spot without having to see the radiator shell.

[Matt Harwood]

14 hours ago, edinmass said:

It would probably make it Jimmy Walkers car..........he also had a 1931 Pierce Series 42 touring, It recently sold after fifty years of ownership.

 

I know that car (and its owner) very well, a good friend and a great guy. I've encouraged him for years to paint it, but he was really hung up on the Jimmy Walker connection. I didn't realize he'd sold it--he is extremely sentimental about it.

 

[twin6]

[twin6]

Sightseeing bus owned and operated for many years by Martin Itjen in Skagway, AK.  At its core, it is a 1910 Packard model 30 and the bus still exists, now owned by the National Park Service.

[58L-Y8]

All the functional and safely reasons, better light spread and vehicle width definition for safer night driving ignores the fact that differentiation of one's cars for all the other myriad cars available was important to automakers too.

[LCK81403]

1901 Mueller Trap, built by Mueller Manufacturing Company, Decatur, Illinois.  One-cylinder, 4-cycle engine.  The frame is of tubular construction with cooling water circulating through the frame and cooling coils located in front of the dash.  It had pneumatic tires.

[twin6]

[LCK81403]

1897 Oldsmobile

 

 

[twin6]

[Marty Roth]

6 minutes ago, Ben P. said:

FDR. Yellowstone 1937.

 

Among our favorites- drove there in 1994 in our 1927 Chevy Capitol AA Roadster for our 25th anniversary during VCCA 4-cylinder tour-

 

Northeast section of Yellowstone National Park, looking southward toward falls from near Artist Point (renamed Inspiration Point?).

FDR in a Cadillac convertible sedan -

probably series 70 or 75 with 131 inch wheelbase, like the comparable Buick Roadmaster Series 80C Roadmaster,

Looks too long to be a Series 60 with 124 inch wheelbase,

and too short to be a 154' wheelbase V-16 Series 90

 

Just a guess

but could be a Series 85 V-12 with 138" w/b,

 

[LCK81403]

[LCK81403]

1906 Welch, 36-40 H.P. Pullman Limousine

 

 

[LCK81403]

1905 Franklin air cooled.  There was much discussion and advertising in those days about the merits of air cooling and water cooling.  Some auto manufacturers even provided air cooling or water cooling at the option of the customer.

 

 

[LCK81403]

The drive in restaurant was invented in 1905?  This '05 Reo ad suggests the possibility.

 

 

[TerryB]

From my collection, 1940 flood in Manheim PA.

 

[John_Mereness]

18 hours ago, Walt G said:

 

Siren on the headlamp cross bar too - also license plates frames, sidemounts, optional wooden wheels, and Daphne/Adonis at the well mascot - A 640 or 645 Series 

Edited April 13, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I know that car (and its owner) very well, a good friend and a great guy. I've encouraged him for years to paint it, but he was really hung up on the Jimmy Walker connection. I didn't realize he'd sold it--he is extremely sentimental about it.

 

 

Unless you have a photo of Walker pointing to the chassis or engine number, it’s only conjecture. Unfortunately the car is BARF 🤮 GREEN. Which hurts the value in this case 50 percent. Fantastic car.......a BIG BLOCK Pierce on the custom chassis......385 CID monster that runs like the wind........one of the best driving CCCA Classics on the planet, a true sleeper.......until you drive it. 

 

 

 

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, twin6 said:

Sightseeing bus owned and operated for many years by Martin Itjen in Skagway, AK.  At its core, it is a 1910 Packard model 30 and the bus still exists, now owned by the National Park Service.

 

It’s BIG, and it’s UGLY, but very well built........like a girl I dated back in my senior year of college. The ride is fun, as long as your friends don’t see you operating her.......excuse me; I mean it! 🤫

 

 

 

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, twin6 said:

 

Look at that fantastic body, and the REAL huge headlights! How can you complain? Love a car or a lady with BIG headlights! 🤫

 

 

[1937hd45]

6 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

I know it is blasphemy to many on this particular thread, but I've never been able to understand the styling decision regarding the Pierce Arrow "molded into fender" headlights. While I do realize the P-A's were great cars, (and love the Silver Arrow) this one little wrinkle has always turned me away from them stylistically. I don't know of any other company who adopted this seemingly odd practice, always reminds me of the much later Bugeye Sprites, which were loved or hated often because of those headlights. No offence guys, I'm assuming someone over the years has written a piece on this unique styling exercise. (must have also been a real challenge to do in sheet metal!).

 

 

Well that makes two of us. When was the "New York" option first available and when did it end? Bob 

[Matt Harwood]

27 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Unless you have a photo of Walker pointing to the chassis or engine number, it’s only conjecture. Unfortunately the car is BARF 🤮 GREEN. Which hurts the value in this case 50 percent. Fantastic car.......a BIG BLOCK Pierce on the custom chassis......385 CID monster that runs like the wind........one of the best driving CCCA Classics on the planet, a true sleeper.......until you drive it. 

 

It's a neat car and the owner has asked me many times what he should do with it. I told him to drive it until he or the car drops dead. He floated it at auction in 2011 and it was bid to $105,000 or so--he really should have taken that pile of money and RUN. Now it's unwinding pretty fast, although mostly just cosmetics because it's a strong runner. There's no way that's original paint and I have my doubts that the interior is original, but it's hard to say. Regardless, it needs paint now, although the interior (which I truly suspect is vinyl from the '60s) is serviceable. He asked me about repainting it at that very show in the photo above. I told him that if he isn't going to touch anything else, he should paint it dark blue or maroon to go with the wheels and the interior. But he said he would repaint it the same awful colors since it was Mayor Jimmy Walker's car and Jimmy was Irish and he special-ordered the car in these colors. My gut says that the Jimmy Walker connection, even if you had the photo of him pointing at the engine number, is worth exactly $0.00 so you may as well paint it a more attractive combination and get on with it.

 

In fact, when I first met him and he was going on about it being Jimmy Walker's car, I kept wondering, "What the hell was that skinny kid from "What's Happening?" doing with a Pierce-Arrow?"

[edinmass]

Maybe the car belonged to Rerun! (Fred Barry) The story of the Walker Connection pre dates the current owner, that said, it means NOTHING. The 1931 Series 41 & 42 Pierce Arrow cars are the absolute best value for your dollar on a fantastic driving car from the 1929-1934 era. Only a Duesenberg is better. Having driven everything, and serviced everything, I can state that it will run circles around everything else. Yes, I have one......a 1931 Series 42  Dual Cowl Phaeton. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[3macboys]

Just found this listed in an online auction tonight - When was the last time that you saw a dealer list their home phone number?  

 

 

[LCK81403]

Real catchy name for this car.  Come on Betty Lou, let's take the Gas-Au-Lec out for spin.

[1937hd45]

Odd names for cars could be a thread of its own, this is one of my favorites. Bob 

[8E45E]

13 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

It's a neat car and the owner has asked me many times what he should do with it. I told him to drive it until he or the car drops dead. He floated it at auction in 2011 and it was bid to $105,000 or so--he really should have taken that pile of money and RUN. Now it's unwinding pretty fast, although mostly just cosmetics because it's a strong runner. There's no way that's original paint and I have my doubts that the interior is original, but it's hard to say. Regardless, it needs paint now, although the interior (which I truly suspect is vinyl from the '60s) is serviceable. He asked me about repainting it at that very show in the photo above. I told him that if he isn't going to touch anything else, he should paint it dark blue or maroon to go with the wheels and the interior. But he said he would repaint it the same awful colors since it was Mayor Jimmy Walker's car and Jimmy was Irish and he special-ordered the car in these colors. My gut says that the Jimmy Walker connection, even if you had the photo of him pointing at the engine number, is worth exactly $0.00 so you may as well paint it a more attractive combination and get on with it.

 

In fact, when I first met him and he was going on about it being Jimmy Walker's car, I kept wondering, "What the hell was that skinny kid from "What's Happening?" doing with a Pierce-Arrow?"

From what I've been seeing here, P-A was very early at painting customer's cars in any color they wished.

 

All in all, these colors, including the two-tone green on this Pierce Arrow are very tame compared to some of these 'Paint to Sample' shades of green I've seen on some newer Porsches which are simply overkill.   

 

 https://www.google.com/search?q=porsche+paint+to+sample+green&tbm=isch&source=univ&safe=strict&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP4pHU6-foAhVOnp4KHZEHBCEQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1920&bih=888

 

Craig

[edinmass]

Pierce Arrow would paint ANY color you wanted. In 1931 they had over seven hundred shades of brown to choose from, or make up your own. There were several customers who would send in pressed flowers and have the car painted to match the flowers out in front of the estate.......what people with money do when they have too much time on their hands. Importantly, almost 99.9 percent of the cars were painted in subdued and tasteful colors appropriate for the time........most, but NOT all. Ed

[Steve Moskowitz]

A period photo you do not like to see....

[TG57Roadmaster]

22 hours ago, Walt G said:

I know that although the fender/headlamp issue has been mentioned/written about etc often - to me it eventually "grew" on me , don't care for all of them but do a lot. By 1933 the blending of the lamp into the fender really started to work well as a design feature for art deco styling and did so right up until the end of production. I am guessing but as far as I know P-A gave the customer an option of having the regular bar mounted headlamps similar to other cars , so the person buying the car could choose. I know in England that the fender mounted headlamp was against the law .

 

This Pierce-Arrow Club Sedan ad appeared in the June 1931 issue of El Automóvil Americano,

and wears bracket headlamps, with parking lights borrowed from Studebaker.

 

The color ad for American magazines features the fender-mounted headlamps. 

 

 

TG

Edited April 14, 2020 by TG57Roadmaster (see edit history)

[twin6]

On 4/13/2020 at 5:54 PM, edinmass said:

t’s BIG, and it’s UGLY, but very well built... like a girl I dated back in my senior year of college. The ride is fun, as long as your friends don’t see you operating her... excuse me; I mean it! 🤫

 

Good time to post this photo of him!

 

 

[1937hd45]

Steve, Please forward that photo to Dr. Simeone, it may be more important than you think. Bob 

[Steve Moskowitz]

I did Bob, good catch!!

[twin6]

More Mercers...

 

 

[StanleyRegister]

Looks like the Mercer got the pole position...