Walt G

Period Images to Relieve some of the Stress

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28 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

The detail and clarity in the photo is lacking enough that positive identification may not be possible. However, I am fairly sure the car behind the Fuller is an about 1904 Cadillac, model B if I recall correctly. I am a little unsure because while the hood and what I can see of the front axle peeking through the wheel look correct for the Cadillac, the wheelbase appears a bit longer than a few cars I have seen.

The car in front will be the toughest one. The basic style, shape of radiator and fenders was all quite common in the 1908 to 1910 years. I would guess it is most likely a Buick, likely a four cylinder. 

That model of Fuller is unusual enough that they are easily spotted. I am not certain about it though because the 1910 "Jackson" Fuller model had fourteen spokes in the wheels whereas this car has only twelve. The Fuller had an interesting and confusing history. There were two unrelated companies that built cars under the Fuller name. The Jackson Michigan cars were an off-shoot of the Jackson automobile (a complicated yet interesting relationship!). The other company was in Nebraska! Both companies built semi-high-wheel models similar to this car. History books, automotive guides, and other resources are often wrong. The Kimes and Clark catalog of cars (18** to 1942) even has the photographs identified incorrectly. I "think" this car may actually be the Nebraska Fuller, however it could be one of the early "Jackson" Fullers, although mostly looking correct, the 1910 "Jackson" Fuller had a few details  (like the spoke count and steering wheel) different. Fenders however look correct.

Does this help?

'10's group of three.jpg

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

I would question the "Renault" identification? Franklin also built a large model with that type hood (bonnet). The cowl lamps (barely visible) and apparent lack of radiator behind the bonnet make me suspect that it may be the big Franklin which was air-cooled and did not have a radiator.

I would lean toward Franklin too (the reason why is a lot of Renault's have a radiator between the hood and the cowl) - plus, strikes me as full elliptical springs and strikes me as American lighting. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Does this help?

'10's group of three.jpg

 

 

It certainly makes the picture look better! However in many cases, detail once lost, whether due to the limitations of the original camera and/or film, or the ravages of time upon the surviving image, is not easily recoverable. Sometimes, adjusting contrast and brightness can bring out some things. Often not much can be gained short of either artistic restoration or a major reconstruction computer program. Both of which largely use guesswork in reconstructing lost details.

 

But Thank You regardless! It does look better.

Edited by wayne sheldon (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

I would question the "Renault" identification? Franklin also built a large model with that type hood (bonnet). The cowl lamps (barely visible) and apparent lack of radiator behind the bonnet make me suspect that it may be the big Franklin which was air-cooled and did not have a radiator.

 

You may be right. I hadn't looked for a radiator, I was just thinking expensive cars. 

 

My copy of Floyd Clymer's 1914 cars shows a similar looking car, although it has electric cowl lamps. The wheelbase was 120" and the cost $2300 for the touring car.  Maybe the car here is 1913

 

It doesn't help that driver is obscuring the front of the hood.

 

Plenty to choose from here - https://www.franklincar.org/tech/YOMImages/#1913

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The Lagonda Rapier with a 1,1 Litre twin-cam four. No factory bodies were offered, instead coachbuilt albeith in small series. After Lagonda Company reorganized in 1935 the rights to this smaller model was sold to Rapier Motors Ltd who continued production up to WWII

Lagonda Rapier (2).jpg

Lagonda Rapier (4).jpg

Edited by Casper Friederich (see edit history)

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"Does this hat make me look French?"

roadster guys.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Joseph Larson from Finland started Suomi Auto school in New York City in the 1910s. After his native country gained independence he settled in Helsinki and started a driving school here. I believe he took with him a shovel nosed Franklin when returning to his old homeland. At least there was a similar open Franklin in traffic in the Finnish Capital at least up to the Summer of 1925.

Franklin i Finland (2).jpg

Edited by Casper Friederich (see edit history)

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25 minutes ago, twin6 said:

902.jpg

I'll take the Chrysler roadster around the corner, please.

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Posted (edited)

1922 Austro-Daimler Luxuswagen in Finland. Well, there is preserved over here a late 20s bus on International chassis and with Ford Model A Engine and the radiator beeing a similar Austro-Daimler Spitzkühler...

1922 Austro-Daimler (2).jpg

Edited by Casper Friederich (see edit history)

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On 6/28/2020 at 7:36 PM, TG57Roadmaster said:

1936 Delahaye 135 Cabriolet by Henri Chapron, from the French magazine Miroir du Monde.

935580791_36103DelahayeMiroirduMondeX.thumb.jpg.40dd48ea2f4f23a1310122b8e0c66d09.jpg

 

TG

 

We should count up the number of cars with triple wipers.   The long chassis 320 Cab A Mercedes is another that comes to mind.   The common denominator with this car is the low raked windshield.

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On 7/1/2020 at 11:40 AM, John_Mereness said:

1930 1931 Gardner

 

FWD Gardner available in spring - Newspapers.com

 

1930

 

 

Here is the full article on the Gardner.

 

 

National_Post_Thu__Jan_30__1930_.jpg

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On 7/1/2020 at 11:14 AM, John_Mereness said:

FWD Miller

Strange/Rare car profiles-identifies threat | Page 10 | Forum ...

 

HARRY A. MILLER, INC. | EDL Services LLC.

 

Strange/Rare car profiles-identifies threat | Page 10 | Forum ...

 

 

I've never seen the top picture before!!!   Where did you find that?    I think the bottom one is the one in circulation?  Or maybe I haven't see that one before either.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

A couple of winds splitters by Alexis Kellner at the 1911 Berlin Automobile Show. Horch and Windhoff, in the latter case the driver's wheel is not placed on the left nor right side but in the middle!

Horch1912.png

1911 Berlind (4).png

Edited by Casper Friederich (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Since I  mentioned the Mercedes 320 I figured I should find some pictures.   The V windshield car is a 320N or short wheelbase Combination Coupe,  which is basically a Cab A with a removable hardtop and not the double top on the convertible roof.

 

The triple wiper car is the long wheelbase version of the Cab A.   I could not find a period picture of one so I didn't post any.  Will try to find one.

 

The bottom picture is the 320 version of Mercedes famous "Special Roadster".

 

1937 to 1942 Mercedes-Benz Type 320 (W142)

1935 Mercedes-Benz Typ 290 - Oldtimer zu verkaufen

 

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)
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21 hours ago, keiser31 said:

I'll take the Chrysler roadster around the corner, please.

I was just about to say the same thing. 

902.jpg

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

 

I've never seen the top picture before!!!   Where did you find that?    I think the bottom one is the one in circulation?  Or maybe I haven't see that one before either.

 

 

 

I think my searches were 1930 FWD, 1931 FWD, and ....

 

Update:  Found it:  https://www.supercars.net/forum/threads/strange-rare-car-profiles-identifies-threat.36491/page-10

 

Sidenote:  Miller built 2 passenger cars - I believe one was sold and the other taken in almost finished (yet unfinished) as repayment of a ridiculously expensive debt.  I do not recall if the same fellow owned both or ..., but as to the unfinished one the fellow had strong ties to EL. Cord (aka why the project most likely occurred to begin with - I played connect the dots in discussion about a year ago via the fellow's  Board of Director memberships - both cars are currently being manufactured using original factory patterns/bucks/molds, drawings, and ....). 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

http://blog.tribunadonorte.com.br/autosemotores/2016/02/06/miller-burden-roadster-o-mais-exclusivo-carro-do-mundo-por-marco-antonio-oliveira/

Miller-Burden Roadster: o mais exclusivo carro do mundo. Por Marco ...

 

Miller-Burden Roadster: o mais exclusivo carro do mundo. Por Marco ...

 

This is an interesting photo - I assume a Miller V-16 installed in a Cord (I also assume the sedan - which I believe was a Club Sedan/Brougham) - some parts of this automobile survive.

Miller-Burden Roadster: o mais exclusivo carro do mundo. Por Marco ...

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Also present at the 1911 Berlin Automobile Show was this Kühlstein bodied Luc 16/40 with British Daimler engine. This landaudette  had the bigger engine of the two sleeve valve models that was put together by Loeb & Co, the largest Automobile repair shop in Berlin and probably also in the whole Imperial Germany.

It had an interesting rear suspension arrangement with auxilary leaf and coil springs.

LUC.png

Edited by Casper Friederich (see edit history)

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https://www.facebook.com/HistoricAutomotivePromotion/posts/1932-miller-burden-v16-4wd-roadsteredit-story-vasileos-papaidisfor-an-automotive/1307900309323790/

 

1932 Miller-Burden V16 4WD Roadster
Edit story Vasileos Papaidis
For an automotive historian like Griffith Borgeson to receive this letter is like picking a pick at a stone in the backyard, and finding that it is made of massive gold inside. A street car of 500 hp and full wheel drive, in 1933! More than that, a car with chassis and engine set up to win the 500 Miles of Indianapolis, adapted to the streets, the perfect definition of Thoroughbred. I can think of your reaction, your incredible anxiety, by reading this at the end of 1954.
What he discovered on the subject first appeared in Road & Track magazine in May 1955, but is finally put on paper in a definitive and complete way in his last book, "The Last Great Miller," edited by SAE posthumously in the year 2000 (Borgeson left this plan in 1997), which mainly tells the story of the four-wheel drive car of 1932.
When I wrote about Jensen FF recently, I just remembered this car. Jensen remains the first to be offered to the public in series, but Burden's car is certainly his predecessor in spirit. And that encouraged me to talk a bit more about four-wheel drive, this persistent idea that was the subject of that text, but before Tony Rolt and Harry Ferguson were hooked for it in the post-war era.
And how could it not be, this is a story of people too, which starts long ago in a small town in Wisconsin, USA ...
When the "Miller - F.W.D. Special "debuted in the 1932 race, but something unusual happened. A second car, identical to the Clintonville company car, also appears to compete, sponsored by a certain William A.M. Burden. Miller had made a copy of the first car in parallel to increase the chances of victory. But the cars were ready almost on the eve of the race, and therefore were not tested enough: both did not finish the race, leaving prematurely with the transfer boxes of the traction system in the four cracks and leaking oil. Leo Goossen would later confess to Borgeson that he had erred in the design of this set; It was too small and made the oil too hot for that. In the following years, they would use an F.W.D. Company, larger and more reliable.
And who was this mysterious sponsor? Bill Burden was an automobile enthusiast with the money to take advantage of the best in the field. Tataraneto Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt, the richest man in the world in his time, was born the owner of an unimaginable fortune. He had a productive life, however: he is one of the founders of the Museum of Modern Art in New York, he was the American ambassador to Belgium, and he headed the American Defense Institute for more than twenty years. Burden also founded a company to take care of the fortune of the Vanderbilt family, at a time when it began to dilute; For his sake, his company collectively taking care of the money of all heirs, to this day a multitude of descendants of the Commodore, who grows exponentially, lives a comfortable life. To be a shareholder of this investment company, whether you are born into the family, or marrying your family ...
But what matters here is how Burden got into this story. In the summer of 1932, Miller invites him to visit him at his home in New York (the Burden are one of the most traditional and influential families of this town to this day). Miller and Goossen are greeted in an apartment like they've never seen before, facing Central Park, where they meet Bill Burden and his friend Victor Emanuel, another New York car enthusiast. Both, of course, owned Duesenbergs SJ, the most powerful and fastest series car then, but they wanted something more. Miller could not be happier: he had a ready-made project in his sleeve, the same as he had with the donkeys in the water with F.W.D. Company. Hunger and the urge to eat, coming together.
The millionaires did not want mass production: they wanted only two cars, one for each, and much discretion on the part of Miller and his company. It would not do much good to know that in those times of pervasive difficulties in the Great Depression, two young millionaires were spending a real fortune on inconsequential toys. Miller set the price at $ 35,000 each.
To give you an idea, a Packard would then cost something around $ 3,000, which is expensive if you think a Ford would go for something around $ 500, already with the powerful new V-8 engine. An expensive and exclusive Duesenberg SJ could be purchased for eight thousand dollars.
But Miller's car would be much more than that. He would use the mechanics of the competition car, an exclusive larger chassis, and the super-exotic five-liter V-16, but in an even more developed version: with Rootes compressor, Goossen estimated that something like 500 bhp was possible. The construction of the car begins immediately.
But several problems happened there. The depression worsened and Miller's business went from bad to worse, culminating in the bankruptcy of the company in 1933. Successive delays in the project undermined Burden and Emanuel's trust with Miller; Emanuel soon abandoned the undertaking, leaving Burden alone, with obviously increased and renegotiated costs. At the time of bankruptcy, the car was not ready yet, and a great period of uncertainty followed, to the utter desperation of the poor New York patron. An agreement was finally closed for Fred Offenhauser to finish the car, so that the rest of the money still to be paid would be received with his delivery. At the end of 1933, William Burden finally received his magnificent black roadster.
And how wonderful was that! To remain discreet in an impoverished country, the most expensive car of the time received no chrome: wheels, radiator and all the rest were painted matte black. The V-16 twin-valve, four-valve-per-cylinder engine received a Rootes compressor mounted between the flywheel and the transmission (stretching considerably), and a three-speed manual gearbox. After the exchange, the system distributed the power for the two axes equally by means of a central differential. The suspensions were like in the race car: two symmetrical Dion axles. It had only two seats, and a small convertible ceiling.
As could not fail to be something developed to stumble, the car had several problems, but all simple to solve, classic case of something that was created to be large, but with fine development amputated ahead of time. Suspension geometry not very well set, poor cooling, heavy and "strange" direction were reported by Burden. But with the bankrupt company there was no one to hit the car "in the guarantee". The owner loses his temper and sells it back to Offenhauser after less than a year with him. The price? Mere $ 600. Soon afterwards he would be dismantled, his unused pieces used in several other competition projects.
A shame, because a few more months of adjustment would surely make the Miller-Burden one of the greatest cars ever built there, certainly. The circumstances conspired that none of Miller's four-wheel-drive cars had the development they deserved; The cars were ready, but their development was not completed. As a result, four-wheel drive in high-performance vehicles had a big hiatus, only coming back with the efforts of Harry Ferguson and Jensen in the 1960s. The Miller-Burden Roadster remains almost like a passing dream, disappearing Completely afterwards like smoke.
But not without inspiring an incredible account of Bill Burden's brother, Shirley, published in Bill's biography, and reproduced in Borgeson's book. Her brother, who was male despite the woman's name, was living in Los Angeles, working in the RKO studio, and even took his girlfriend (a niece of Douglas Fairbanks) to Miller tours through Los Angeles before dispatching the roadster to the brother. He reported that he accelerated like something he had never seen before, and found the car magnificent.
But the most incredible was the testimony reproduced below, which I believe to be perfect to end this subject:
"One day I got a call from my brother in New York. He told me that he and Victor Emanuel, another nutcase for cars like him, had ordered two special Miller's in Los Angeles. He explained that Victor got tired of paying and not seeing any car, and had canceled his request. This left my brother alone holding the bill. He explained to me what he had asked for: a sixteen-cylinder four-wheel-drive car with a compressor and 500 hp. He wanted me to get a lawyer and go to the factory to see what was happening. I contacted Dan O'Shea (RKO lawyer), and he volunteered to help me.
A few days later we were on our way to see this Miller. I do not know what Dan expected, but I visualized a garage with some dirty grease mechanics sweating over a block of motor with holes. When we arrived at the factory it was a great surprise: it was a factory in every sense of the word; Took at least three quarters of the big block. There we met Fred Offenhauser, the handsome gentleman in the white coat who led the operation.
The workshop was full of all sorts of machines; Lathes, milling cutters, presses, etc. In each machine a mechanic worked on a small shiny object, with all care and reverence. Much later, as the ride through the plant was drawing to a close, we took courage and asked Offenhausen where my brother's car was. He explained, in a tolerant voice, that we had just seen him. All those shiny pecs when mounted would make a lovely Miller Special. When we left, we asked how many people worked there: twenty-five was the answer.
We did not talk much on the way back. There really was not much to talk about. The conclusion was obvious. Those men were artists. Money did not matter, especially when it was someone else's money. If you wanted the car, you had to pay and accept its terms. It was hard to explain this to my brother, but I think he understood. A lot of time and a lot of money later, the car was ready. The body was torpedo-shaped, and it was painted black. It had two very uncomfortable sports seats, a low windshield, and it was convertible. The engine, which seemed to take three quarters of the car, was wonderfully beautiful, a pleasure to the eyes. Whether he walked or not, it did not matter. I should be in a museum. "

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