AUCTION Catalogs useful tools or just pretty pictures?

[1937hd45]

Just acquired a two foot tall stack of auction catalogs, great cars that we all dream about. I keep the ones from auctions I've attended because of the memories, but what about this stack? I'll go through them, I'm sure there will more than a few cars I've seen or worked on. Wonder if this Packard boat tail has changed hands again since 2005? Bob 

Edited February 23, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

My auction catalogs are like most of my other magazines - they were interesting when I first looked through them, but very few ever got looked at a second time. 

Terry

[alsancle]

Bob,

 

the problem with auction catalogs is that all the major car houses leave their catalogs up forever.  Much easier to search their site.  That said, I have hundreds of catalogs and I wonder what I’m going to do with them.

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Bob,

 

the problem with auction catalogs is that all the major car houses leave their catalogs up forever.  Much easier to search their site.  That said, I have hundreds of catalogs and I wonder what I’m going to do with them.

 

 

Think I'll test the waters with a few, sure would be nice to cove a round trip to Burbank in August. Bob 

Edited February 24, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

On Youtube, I've run into videos about hoarders:

the people who have mountains and piles of 

unnecessary things, and who think they are going

to use them some day.  They make me clear out

my small amounts of clutter.

 

I'd say that most catalogues would be better off

in the recycling bin! 

[Terry Bond]

10 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

On Youtube, I've run into videos about hoarders:

the people who have mountains and piles of 

unnecessary things, and who think they are going

to use them some day.  They make me clear out

my small amounts of clutter.

 

I'd say that most catalogues would be better off

in the recycling bin! 

Are you suggesting that some of us are "hoarders?"  One of my main rules of collecting is - you gotta have showcases (or in this situation, bookcases).  The difference between hoarders and collectors is SHOWCASES.  That's why I have a collection of old antique country store cases.  My stuff looks better in them anyway, and stays somewhat organized. 

Terry

[Matt Harwood]

I think I'm going to start printing my website in a magazine format. If you want to buy a car from me, there is now a 10% buyer's premium to cover my own costly and unnecessary decision. If the price is $50,000, be sure to bring $55,000 with you.

 

You know, to cover my overhead.

Thanks!

[1937hd45]

31 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I think I'm going to start printing my website in a magazine format. If you want to buy a car from me, there is now a 10% buyer's premium to cover my own costly and unnecessary decision. If the price is $50,000, be sure to bring $55,000 with you.

 

You know, to cover my overhead.

Thanks!

 

 

Took the tour of your website for the first time, only one car got me to stop and watch the video, the Stanguellini Formula Junior. Painted one years ago and worked on others, at that time you could get one for around five grand, great times. Bob 

[Joe in Canada]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I think I'm going to start printing my website in a magazine format. If you want to buy a car from me, there is now a 10% buyer's premium to cover my own costly and unnecessary decision. If the price is $50,000, be sure to bring $55,000 with you.

 

You know, to cover my overhead.

Thanks!

The difference in a dealer and an auction is with a dealer you can take a test drive. With the auction you can watch them push it off stage.

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

The difference in a dealer and an auction is with a dealer you can take a test drive. With the auction you can watch them push it off stage.

This is true for the most part,   although if you are a real known buyer to an auction company there are allowances on the test drive.   But for most people that would be Nyet to the drive.

 

The one advantage that auctions do have is the ability for the buyer acquire something unique.   No offense to Matt, or any other dealer's inventory, you are not going to find the cars at Amelia Bonahams, RM, or Gooding any day of the week in a dealer inventory.

 

[Matt Harwood]

15 minutes ago, alsancle said:

This is true for the most part,   although if you are a real known buyer to an auction company there are allowances on the test drive.   But for most people that would be Nyet to the drive.

 

The one advantage that auctions do have is the ability for the buyer acquire something unique.   No offense to Matt, or any other dealer's inventory, you are not going to find the cars at Amelia Bonahams, RM, or Gooding any day of the week in a dealer inventory.

 

 

Very true. The auction companies have done a flat-out awesome job of making it seem as though they are the only place to sell a high-dollar car. It's really bizarre that people will pay record-breaking numbers at auction for a car they wouldn't even consider in a dealer's inventory. I don't get it at all--there's no chance to really get to know the car. No test drive, no lift, and you have about 20 seconds to make up your mind with a bunch of people shouting at you and possibly quite a bit of free alcohol coursing through your system. If you have problems, the auction company will help a little but usually are more willing to just hand you back to the seller (both their buyer and seller contracts say that the auction company isn't responsible for, well, anything) and let you fight it out unless you're a seriously high roller. Copperfield doesn't pull of more impressive illusions than car auction companies.

 

The auction companies have done a great job making buyers think that they're servicing the cars and making the perfect instead of just pushing them across the block, no matter how bad they are. Every time someone says they bought a car at auction, I expect it to be 20% worse than expected. I'm rarely wrong.

 

We service the cars we sell and make sure they work as well as they can given what they are. We allow test drives, inspectors, we have three lifts so you can look at it, and we let you take as much time as you like. We do compression tests by request, we've sent out oil for analysis, and we can gather more information if you need something specific that I haven't already checked. None of that is available at an auction. Yet everyone waves their money around like they don't care about any of that stuff because they're just sure the auction company has already done their homework for them. And as I pointed out, you get to pay an extra 10% for the non-assistance the auction house gives you. Nice!

 

I've said this before: I send my trash to auction and I am not the only. If it's a headache, doesn't work right, has hidden issues--Boom! Perfect auction car. Good luck, sucker.

 

I am also confident that a $500,000 car can be a turd just as easily as a $15,000 car--the only difference is that the $500,000 turd costs a lot more to de-turdify.

[alsancle]

Matt,  I don't disagree with anything you are saying.     Maybe the other advantage from a buyer's perspective is that a deal may be had on a true no reserve car.    Some of the Groendyke Cadillacs sat in Mark Hyman's inventory for a long time,  before they went no reserve at Arizona.  A few for what seemed like bargain prices.

[Walt G]

Adult beverage ( adult antifreeze?) in the blood stream in certain quantities seems to give a good many potential bidders/buyers "confidence" (?) , "knowledge", perspective and incentive to thrust up their arm with their bidders paddle and wave it around like the experts they think they are.

Yes, I have bought a car at auction - and fairly recently too (2016) . I went and inspected it prior to the auction, decided on my $ limit ( had to take into account the added buyers premium and state tax, plus placing the car if I was winning bidder with a trusted friend and restorer to 'go through the car' to make sure it was well sorted mechanically since it had seen little use since being restored two decades prior) .

I have attended a few car auctions over the decades - my first car auction was at the Wallace Bird estate in Oyster Bay on long island, NY. . Very educational - I believe at the time a Model J Duesenberg Murphy conv coupe went for $5,000. My choice as a young lad at the time was another Duesenberg there in Bird's garage- a Murphy Beverly sedan - very happy to say a friend at this moment now owns that car and it still is mostly original . I remember Austin Clark buying a type 35 Bugatti race car that was used by Mr. Bird at the Roosevelt race way in Westbury , NY when it was new in the George Vanderbilt Cup races.

[8E45E]

29 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Very true. The auction companies have done a flat-out awesome job of making it seem as though they are the only place to sell a high-dollar car. It's really bizarre that people will pay record-breaking numbers at auction for a car they wouldn't even consider in a dealer's inventory. I don't get it at all--there's no chance to really get to know the car. No test drive, no lift, and you have about 20 seconds to make up your mind with a bunch of people shouting at you and possibly quite a bit of free alcohol coursing through your system. If you have problems, the auction company will help a little but usually are more willing to just hand you back to the seller (both their buyer and seller contracts say that the auction company isn't responsible for, well, anything) and let you fight it out unless you're a seriously high roller. Copperfield doesn't pull of more impressive illusions than car auction companies.

 

The auction companies have done a great job making buyers think that they're servicing the cars and making the perfect instead of just pushing them across the block, no matter how bad they are. Every time someone says they bought a car at auction, I expect it to be 20% worse than expected. I'm rarely wrong.

 

We service the cars we sell and make sure they work as well as they can given what they are. We allow test drives, inspectors, we have three lifts so you can look at it, and we let you take as much time as you like. We do compression tests by request, we've sent out oil for analysis, and we can gather more information if you need something specific that I haven't already checked. None of that is available at an auction. Yet everyone waves their money around like they don't care about any of that stuff because they're just sure the auction company has already done their homework for them. And as I pointed out, you get to pay an extra 10% for the non-assistance the auction house gives you. Nice!

 

I've said this before: I send my trash to auction and I am not the only. If it's a headache, doesn't work right, has hidden issues--Boom! Perfect auction car. Good luck, sucker.

 

I am also confident that a $500,000 car can be a turd just as easily as a $15,000 car--the only difference is that the $500,000 turd costs a lot more to de-turdify.

My all-time favorite auction car so far is THIS ONE: 

 

I never did hear how the Dutch buyer made out with the auction company after the German authorities confiscated it!!

 

Craig

[Matt Harwood]

28 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Matt,  I don't disagree with anything you are saying.     Maybe the other advantage from a buyer's perspective is that a deal may be had on a true no reserve car.    Some of the Groendyke Cadillacs sat in Mark Hyman's inventory for a long time,  before they went no reserve at Arizona.  A few for what seemed like bargain prices.

 

For every no reserve bargain there's a guy who got auction fever and paid too much just because he was there and didn't want the other guy to get one over on him. I have at least three customers just like that.

[Joe in Canada]

5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

For every no reserve bargain there's a guy who got auction fever and paid too much just because he was there and didn't want the other guy to get one over on him.

Late 80s went to an auction in Roxton Pond QB. There was a fellow I believe from Georgia that bought every car that were  restored or unrestored no matter the price. Over 100 cars if my memory serves me correctly and some were less than parts cars. When the 16 cyl. stuff came up he did not no when to quit. I heard he never lived to see all the cars delivered to him.   

[Dave Henderson]

I'll have to admit I still have an auction catalog for an auction conducted in 1974 by a major house.  I wondered how some of the obviously survivor grade cars looked so shiny.... until I saw drips coming off the ends of running boards and realized the cars had been hosed down and then moved to a dry spot for the photo.

[Terry Bond]

I do have a couple of auction catalogs - from the legendary Sword collection in Scotland.  That collection of early vehicles was disbursed in two separate auctions in 1962.  I think that was one of the earliest car collection auctions ever held. Unfortunately only a single black and white photo of the cars was used in the catalogs, along with minimal descriptions.   Many of the cars in that collection were rare almost one-off vehicles built at the turn of the century.  Included also were some early Rolls Royce Ghosts and a Scotland-built steam car circa 1896. 

Terry

[8E45E]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 7:01 PM, Terry Bond said:

My auction catalogs are like most of my other magazines - they were interesting when I first looked through them, but very few ever got looked at a second time. 

Terry

One thing I do find interesting in auction catalogs is they often show photos of odd options, or special order items, as these are what make the particular car being profiled rare and desirable, hence, a potential selling feature.   And sometimes, they do state production figures of how many had that color combination, etc.  I have a couple of catalogs, one profiling two 1969 Trans Ams from a few years ago, and one I picked up last November on the Bullitt Mustang.

 

Craig

[Joe in Canada]

1 hour ago, 8E45E said:

And sometimes, they do state production figures of how many had that color combination

I find it different that a colour was not very popular when new, meaning not many people liked the colour so few were produced. Then today its a rare colour so put the price up saying the colour is in demand now?

[Terry Bond]

Without too many exceptions, I don't find the auction catalogs to be very accurate sources of documentation for most vehicles.  Interesting reading for sure, but certainly not a reliable representation of authenticity. I once encountered a Model T Torpedo at a show that was painted dark purple.  When I asked the owner about the color, he produced an auction catalog showing an identical car in the same shade of dark purple.  The catalog described the car as "the most perfectly authentic restoration they'd ever seen" so the owner took the catalog to his painter and had the color duplicated (unfortunately).

Terry

[Matt Harwood]

40 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

Without too many exceptions, I don't find the auction catalogs to be very accurate sources of documentation for most vehicles.  Interesting reading for sure, but certainly not a reliable representation of authenticity. I once encountered a Model T Torpedo at a show that was painted dark purple.  When I asked the owner about the color, he produced an auction catalog showing an identical car in the same shade of dark purple.  The catalog described the car as "the most perfectly authentic restoration they'd ever seen" so the owner took the catalog to his painter and had the color duplicated (unfortunately).

Terry

 

I'm trying to find the example I noticed just the other night. I routinely Google the types of cars I have to see if there are any other examples or new information on the web, and found a description in [REDACTED]'s catalog for a Lincoln K where they said it was "one of two." Then I found the same car in a later auction where it was "one of six." Then it stumbled through the same auction house a third time a few years later where they had amended it to simply "very rare." They don't know the truth and if you read the fine print they will claim that everything they know came from the owner anyway. That's why they're typically light on specific details and heavy on marque history and other common-knowledge Wikipedia things that are not litigable later--like when the guy thought he had a "one of two" car and went to a show where there were three others in attendance or something like that.

 

As with any source for any kind of information on any subject, double-check it in other places before you accept it as truth.

[8E45E]

4 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

I find it different that a colour was not very popular when new, meaning not many people liked the colour so few were produced. Then today its a rare colour so put the price up saying the colour is in demand now?

Funny how it works that way!!

 

Packard Hawks were not very popular when they were new, but look at them now.  Same goes for Edsels.

 

Craig

[Joe in Canada]

3 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Funny how it works that way!!

 

Packard Hawks were not very popular when they were new, but look at them now.  Same goes for Edsels.

 

Craig

How about the Daytona with the wing on back. Most guys back then did not want to be seen in one. Now look at the price of then going through the roof.

[60FlatTop]

On 2/24/2020 at 2:21 PM, Matt Harwood said:

It's really bizarre that people will pay record-breaking numbers at auction for a car they wouldn't even consider in a dealer's inventory.

 

I get the same feeling watching professional wrestling.

 

Seeing the dollar to dollar transaction (without any walnut shells) might edge me over a little bit, but seeing the buyers coral with the first name basis dealers and regular buyers doesn't give me that warm, fuzzy feeling.

"Come on down and join the sip and bid club, don't worry, the sharks have been fed".

 

I have always entertained the idea of opening a dealership called "Generally Honest Bernie's Used Cars". Dangerous, but you won't get hurt too bad. For the automotive thrill seeker.

[Dave Henderson]

On 2/26/2020 at 12:32 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

I'm trying to find the example I noticed just the other night. I routinely Google the types of cars I have to see if there are any other examples or new information on the web, and found a description in [REDACTED]'s catalog for a Lincoln K where they said it was "one of two." Then I found the same car in a later auction where it was "one of six." Then it stumbled through the same auction house a third time a few years later where they had amended it to simply "very rare." They don't know the truth and if you read the fine print they will claim that everything they know came from the owner anyway. That's why they're typically light on specific details and heavy on marque history and other common-knowledge Wikipedia things that are not litigable later--like when the guy thought he had a "one of two" car and went to a show where there were three others in attendance or something like that.

 

As with any source for any kind of information on any subject, double-check it in other places before you accept it as truth.

I recall seeing a Lincoln K with "Lucy" on its hubcaps in an auction ad in Old Car newspaper, probably in the 70's.  It was much hyped as having been formerly owned by gangster Lucky Luciano.  When the truth came out it was found that it had been owned by a presumably law abiding restaurant  owner.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)