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1.  Turned over rebuilt engine for the first time. Should I see oil flowing into filter canister?

2.  How does sender unit detect pressure if oil in canister just goes back into oil pan? Is there a restrictor after the sending unit?

 

37 zephyr oil sender 001.jpg

Edited by zephyrdave (see edit history)
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The inlet to the filter should have a .060" opening to allow oil into the filter and the outlet should have a .120" opening in the fitting to allow the oil to leave the filter.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still no oil pressure.!  Removed sender and filled engine with oil by pumping oil through this port with pump. Started motor, ran it for 20 seconds, no pressure on mechanical gauge. Tested gauge OK. Oil pressure line is connected to the horizontal port on bell housing then 90 degrees up to where sender is. Is this the correct port? I wonder if the rebuilder did not connect oil pickup or gear that drives oil pump?

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Remove sender, turn over on starter or fire up motor briefly, should have oil spurting out at top port. Is this a two port solid lifter 37 LZ bellhousing? or three port?   38 LZ onward have three ports,[ hydraulic lifter block]. The third lower port is connected to filter outlet and feeds filtered oil to hyd. lifters. Did you run motor with oil canister top  off and still got no sign of oil? I think you would need cap on to create back pressure to register pressure on gauge. The oil pump may be missing or the drive gears at rear of camshaft  under a plate may have been left out   Is there oil in motor?                                                                

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)
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It is a 37 block, two port. Does it matter which port is used to go to filter? When I ran the motor there was oil in crankcase and filter and lid was on filter. Also ran with oil line off and no oil comes out line. 

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Sounds like an oil pump problem, you might have to take the pan off and check out the pump and see if it's there and properly driven.  Some rebuilds aren't like others!   There are high volume pumps available if yours isn't working.  Best to contact one of the distributors listed on the club's suppliers and get all the small parts/pickup screens with it should you decide to replace it if it wasn't replaced when the engine was rebuilt.  

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No. both ports are supply ports, one for sender, other to feed filter usually into bottom of canister. Side outlet on canister goes to pan although it shouldn't matter as long as there is a restrictor in supply pipe line otherwise filter lid could leak oil. Before you drop pan you  could check sender nipple is not blocking oil flow in gallery on block and  also check oil pressure relief valve is fitted inside valve chamber front of block under 3/4" screw cap. The filter is a by-pass filter, just filters oil. Bearings are fed oil  direct off pump internally.  

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Have never made the modification to a hi-vol pump myself, but read many threads in the past discussing modifications required to the pickup screen and "cup" in the bottom of the pan.  You can visualize that the pump can not pull in oil if the pickup screen is blocked pressing on the bottom of the pan- starving for oil on pump inlet because no clearance; could cause low oil flow-low pressure.  If you do a search on this forum for old threads, it indicates how important it is when installing a hi-vol pump that the engine re-builder knows the modifications required for a larger pump so it doesn't block off the pickup screen.  Might want to do a (thread) SEARCH in the top (blue band) right hand corner: Catbird thread July 30, 2016 titled "V12 Oil Pump? Do I have Standard or High Volume?"  Peecher is very expert on these engines and has helped many of us; his comments may be very helpful to you if you don't know if/what modifications your engine re-builder made to the pickup screen/cup in the pan at the time for the larger pump.

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I found these two pieces in a box of bolts and things returned by the builder with the engine. Looks like a restrictor fitting and pressure regulator. I'm thinking the restricted end screws into engine port and the flare fitting end goes to filter. I don't know what the bolt on the fitting is for?  I hope the regulator was removed because it was replaced. I called the company that rebuilt the motor a while ago and asked if they ever tested this motor. He said they put engines on a stand and the engine is spun by an electric motor to test oil pressure. After I was told that, I pulled the crankcase plug and found it bone dry. How can they test with no oil or maybe I'm missing something.

37 zephyr oil fittings 002.jpg

37 zephyr oil fittings 003.jpg

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One of them is the pressure relief valve. It is installed under the intake manifold at the front of the engine. The spring and ball should have been replaced with new parts when the engine is rebuilt. If they left that out, you would have NO oil pressure.

 

 

lz parts.jpg

Edited by 19tom40 (see edit history)
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With some difficulty (wishbone) I got the oil pan off and found what looks like an M15 pump and piece of copper tube that looks like it might go up to rear of cam somewhere and open at bottom end? Looks like there is enough clearance from pickup to pan. Have not removed pump yet, but should the M15 be an M19 instead? What is the copper tube?

37 oil pump 003.jpg

37 oil pump 005.jpg

37 oil pump 003.jpg

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Wow,! never seen anything like that before.  That copper tube looks more like a drain pipe, would be above oil level  I would think Should have a drain pipe from rear main on other side of pump though.  The oil pump usually has a 1/2 inch? pickup pipe at bottom of pump down into  oil with pickup strainer on end. Is there a hole at bottom of pump on other side we cant see in pic? Not sure which M15 or 19 you could use or what pump that is.

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)
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OH, so the pump does have a proper pickup, good,  it just wasn't in the picture. Rear main drain apparently avoids oil leakage into clutch bellhousing area   after a bit of wear has developed. You may need to find out what that copper pipe is connected to incase it is allowing oil pressure to bleed off.  Also check oil pressure relief valve has been fitted. Another area where oil pressure can be lost is when a 1 inch? oil gallery plug falls out of a crank web, they are pressed in , about a dozen of em. Some pop out!   

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)
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I have never seen this before either. It looks sort of home made with the bad solder job.  Could it be a drain used to limit the oil in the valve chamber? Or a home made attempt to fix the oil drip from the cotter key?

 

Either oil pump will provide sufficient oil for the engine.

 

If the oil pump is OK, check under the intake manifold for a pressure relief valve and make sure that the fuel pump push rod bushing is in place.

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Called my friend (car owner), told him about the tube. He routed through paper work he has and came up with this article by Jake. Now we know! Also bent the pickup tube because pickup was on bottom of pan. Called engine rebuilder again today and told them when I removed the oil plug , it was bone dry. They finally admitted that they never tested engine for oil pressure after saying they did. Also, the tube (that is missing) from the rear main bearing cap directs oil from slinger to crankcase. Not absolutely necessary if crankcase seal is good.

oil drain tube 37 zephyr.jpg

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Thanks now we know the purpose of the tube and that it is not affecting oil pressure.

 

I would eliminate the Teflon tape on the fittings for the oil filter. They are not needed on a the brass pipe thread fitting and shreds may enter the oiling system.

 

I would also look for a King Seeley sending unit. I had one of those aftermarket type sending units on my Lincoln and it eventually started to be very slow to show any oil pressure and then showed very high oil pressure and finally showed no oil pressure. The King Seeley units usually do not fail and can be repaired if they do fail.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Installed a new M19 instead of M15 just because I thought it would be the correct pump for a rebuilt engine. Installed pump without pickup tube so I can see the pump gears. Marked one gear lobe with sharpie. Turned engine by hand and then looked at the gear lobe. It had not moved! Turned engine by hand 3 more times, still no gear movement detected! PUMP IS NOT TURNING. I guess that's why no pressure. Maybe gear on cam is slipping. Now the engine will have to be removed because this engine rebuild company didn't do their job properly. What a PITA 

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There are gears at back of block under cover plate behind fly wheel.[ See my post March 8 ] These gears drive oil pump off rear of camshaft. During  engine rebuild these  gears should be removed for cleaning oil ways etc.  then refitted. The gear on rear of cam is part of the cam shaft I think and shouldn't slip. I suppose the cam shaft is turning and the cam gear at front has been fitted? Do you have 12 compressions and not just one?

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)
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I had the engine fired up for 20 seconds before I found the no oil pressure problem. Engine runs fine. Pump gear is pressed onto camshaft, they are not just one piece. I believe the early v12 oil pump gear was pressed onto a  round shaft at the end of the cam. Later engines went to D shaped shaft. I suspect gear is spinning on shaft or broken teeth. 

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Could be what you say but the large center gear is  removable for cleaning etc. may not have been put back in during  reassembly. Gears are accessible  behind  a bolt on cover rear of block in front of flywheel. 

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)
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Yes,  Damm!  could be a lot of work if gear on cam is slipping! Both heads off, all valves out, pull cam.  Maybe that is why motor needed rebuilding, sudden loss of oil pressure. Could gear be Tigg or Migg? welded in place? Theres a lot at stake though. Good luck and keep persevering.  

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I would get in touch with the shop that rebuilt the engine and ask them to fix the problem. You may have to do the R &R of the engine and let them do all of the other work. They messed up and should be held responsible.

 

You should also check that the camshaft is turning when you turn over the engine. The press on timing gears do slip and teeth do break off.

 

If you want to do the job yourself, you should pull the engine to check the gear, you have to remove the flywheel and the cover over the gear. I would think that it is easier to do this on an engine stand than pull the transmission and oil pan to get the flywheel off.

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The owner will be talking to the engine company. I suspect they will probably say bring the engine in, so that means I will have to pull the engine and get it to them. Like I said, the engine fires up and runs fine.

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Before I take the engine out, I took the pump off and looked up the hole. I noticed that the idler gear did not seem to be in the right place, it looks like it is off to one side of the hole towards the rear of the engine. I turned the engine over by hand and the idler gear did not move. Went to the internet of course to research. Found a V8 ford forum where someone had a new rebuild and no oil pressure. They took the engine out and found that the idler gear was installed upside down so no gear engagement. I'm sure that's what's going on here. If you can see in the pic the gear is off to one side. I think ford V8 and lincoln V12 have a similar setup. The idler gear has a "snout" on one side. If it is installed upside down, it puts the gear out of alignment with the other gears.

oil pump hole 37 007.jpg

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On 3/24/2020 at 2:52 PM, zephyrdave said:

Before I take the engine out, I took the pump off and looked up the hole. I noticed that the idler gear did not seem to be in the right place, it looks like it is off to one side of the hole towards the rear of the engine. I turned the engine over by hand and the idler gear did not move. Went to the internet of course to research. Found a V8 ford forum where someone had a new rebuild and no oil pressure. They took the engine out and found that the idler gear was installed upside down so no gear engagement. I'm sure that's what's going on here. If you can see in the pic the gear is off to one side. I think ford V8 and lincoln V12 have a similar setup. The idler gear has a "snout" on one side. If it is installed upside down, it puts the gear out of alignment with the other gears.

oil pump hole 37 007.jpg

That looks like it could be your problem.  Can you turn the gear with a long screwdriver? That would tell you if it’s engaged with the cam. 

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Problem solved!  Pulled engine. Removed flywheel and then gear cover. Gear had been installed backwards by the engine shop. It was also jammed up against a cast knob on the cover. I removed idler gear and re-installed on the shaft properly. There is now room between the gear and cover, and the gear will now engage with the other gears. 

37 oil pump gears leaking heads 002.jpg

37 oil pump gears leaking heads 004.jpg

37 oil pump gears leaking heads 005.jpg

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Done a little investigating. I have an empty V8 block on the engine stand. I placed the idler gear and cover on and the gear should be running in the center.  On the V8 , pre 49 blocks, the idler gear will not go on the cover wrong because the cover has a hump cast into it to prevent that.  I thought I had a V12 cover laying around but couldn’t find it. Can’t remember if the V12 cover has that cast in hump or not . Maybe someone here has one to look at. The covers are different between the V12 & V8 except for the 36-37 V12. The V12 cover will have a part number with an 86H prefix.  

4E4506EA-5400-4111-B8CD-97CAA35B1609.jpeg

9E399E25-8658-44ED-8AE8-346C79C9205E.jpeg

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