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zephyrdave

37 LZ V12 questions

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1.  Turned over rebuilt engine for the first time. Should I see oil flowing into filter canister?

2.  How does sender unit detect pressure if oil in canister just goes back into oil pan? Is there a restrictor after the sending unit?

 

37 zephyr oil sender 001.jpg

Edited by zephyrdave (see edit history)

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The inlet to the filter should have a .060" opening to allow oil into the filter and the outlet should have a .120" opening in the fitting to allow the oil to leave the filter.

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Still no oil pressure.!  Removed sender and filled engine with oil by pumping oil through this port with pump. Started motor, ran it for 20 seconds, no pressure on mechanical gauge. Tested gauge OK. Oil pressure line is connected to the horizontal port on bell housing then 90 degrees up to where sender is. Is this the correct port? I wonder if the rebuilder did not connect oil pickup or gear that drives oil pump?

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Posted (edited)

Remove sender, turn over on starter or fire up motor briefly, should have oil spurting out at top port. Is this a two port solid lifter 37 LZ bellhousing? or three port?   38 LZ onward have three ports,[ hydraulic lifter block]. The third lower port is connected to filter outlet and feeds filtered oil to hyd. lifters. Did you run motor with oil canister top  off and still got no sign of oil? I think you would need cap on to create back pressure to register pressure on gauge. The oil pump may be missing or the drive gears at rear of camshaft  under a plate may have been left out   Is there oil in motor?                                                                

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

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It is a 37 block, two port. Does it matter which port is used to go to filter? When I ran the motor there was oil in crankcase and filter and lid was on filter. Also ran with oil line off and no oil comes out line. 

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Sounds like an oil pump problem, you might have to take the pan off and check out the pump and see if it's there and properly driven.  Some rebuilds aren't like others!   There are high volume pumps available if yours isn't working.  Best to contact one of the distributors listed on the club's suppliers and get all the small parts/pickup screens with it should you decide to replace it if it wasn't replaced when the engine was rebuilt.  

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No. both ports are supply ports, one for sender, other to feed filter usually into bottom of canister. Side outlet on canister goes to pan although it shouldn't matter as long as there is a restrictor in supply pipe line otherwise filter lid could leak oil. Before you drop pan you  could check sender nipple is not blocking oil flow in gallery on block and  also check oil pressure relief valve is fitted inside valve chamber front of block under 3/4" screw cap. The filter is a by-pass filter, just filters oil. Bearings are fed oil  direct off pump internally.  

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Have never made the modification to a hi-vol pump myself, but read many threads in the past discussing modifications required to the pickup screen and "cup" in the bottom of the pan.  You can visualize that the pump can not pull in oil if the pickup screen is blocked pressing on the bottom of the pan- starving for oil on pump inlet because no clearance; could cause low oil flow-low pressure.  If you do a search on this forum for old threads, it indicates how important it is when installing a hi-vol pump that the engine re-builder knows the modifications required for a larger pump so it doesn't block off the pickup screen.  Might want to do a (thread) SEARCH in the top (blue band) right hand corner: Catbird thread July 30, 2016 titled "V12 Oil Pump? Do I have Standard or High Volume?"  Peecher is very expert on these engines and has helped many of us; his comments may be very helpful to you if you don't know if/what modifications your engine re-builder made to the pickup screen/cup in the pan at the time for the larger pump.

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Excellent point! I will watch for this when I pull the pan. The car owner (a friend of mine), said he gave the builder a new pump for the rebuild. 

 

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I found these two pieces in a box of bolts and things returned by the builder with the engine. Looks like a restrictor fitting and pressure regulator. I'm thinking the restricted end screws into engine port and the flare fitting end goes to filter. I don't know what the bolt on the fitting is for?  I hope the regulator was removed because it was replaced. I called the company that rebuilt the motor a while ago and asked if they ever tested this motor. He said they put engines on a stand and the engine is spun by an electric motor to test oil pressure. After I was told that, I pulled the crankcase plug and found it bone dry. How can they test with no oil or maybe I'm missing something.

37 zephyr oil fittings 002.jpg

37 zephyr oil fittings 003.jpg

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Posted (edited)

One of them is the pressure relief valve. It is installed under the intake manifold at the front of the engine. The spring and ball should have been replaced with new parts when the engine is rebuilt. If they left that out, you would have NO oil pressure.

 

 

lz parts.jpg

Edited by 19tom40 (see edit history)

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Thanks to all that have given advice. Next step, start taking things apart to see what I can find.

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Yes, start  with taking inlet manifold off and check if a  OIL PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE has been fitted. Easier job than removing pan!

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With some difficulty (wishbone) I got the oil pan off and found what looks like an M15 pump and piece of copper tube that looks like it might go up to rear of cam somewhere and open at bottom end? Looks like there is enough clearance from pickup to pan. Have not removed pump yet, but should the M15 be an M19 instead? What is the copper tube?

37 oil pump 003.jpg

37 oil pump 005.jpg

37 oil pump 003.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Wow,! never seen anything like that before.  That copper tube looks more like a drain pipe, would be above oil level  I would think Should have a drain pipe from rear main on other side of pump though.  The oil pump usually has a 1/2 inch? pickup pipe at bottom of pump down into  oil with pickup strainer on end. Is there a hole at bottom of pump on other side we cant see in pic? Not sure which M15 or 19 you could use or what pump that is.

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

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This is an M15 pump. It does have a pickup. Some say M19 would be better. The tube from the rear main is missing. Does this matter? I,ll pull the pump and inspect tomorrow. 

37 oil pump 002.jpg

37 oil pump 004.jpg

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Posted (edited)

OH, so the pump does have a proper pickup, good,  it just wasn't in the picture. Rear main drain apparently avoids oil leakage into clutch bellhousing area   after a bit of wear has developed. You may need to find out what that copper pipe is connected to incase it is allowing oil pressure to bleed off.  Also check oil pressure relief valve has been fitted. Another area where oil pressure can be lost is when a 1 inch? oil gallery plug falls out of a crank web, they are pressed in , about a dozen of em. Some pop out!   

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

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I have never seen this before either. It looks sort of home made with the bad solder job.  Could it be a drain used to limit the oil in the valve chamber? Or a home made attempt to fix the oil drip from the cotter key?

 

Either oil pump will provide sufficient oil for the engine.

 

If the oil pump is OK, check under the intake manifold for a pressure relief valve and make sure that the fuel pump push rod bushing is in place.

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Called my friend (car owner), told him about the tube. He routed through paper work he has and came up with this article by Jake. Now we know! Also bent the pickup tube because pickup was on bottom of pan. Called engine rebuilder again today and told them when I removed the oil plug , it was bone dry. They finally admitted that they never tested engine for oil pressure after saying they did. Also, the tube (that is missing) from the rear main bearing cap directs oil from slinger to crankcase. Not absolutely necessary if crankcase seal is good.

oil drain tube 37 zephyr.jpg

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Thanks now we know the purpose of the tube and that it is not affecting oil pressure.

 

I would eliminate the Teflon tape on the fittings for the oil filter. They are not needed on a the brass pipe thread fitting and shreds may enter the oiling system.

 

I would also look for a King Seeley sending unit. I had one of those aftermarket type sending units on my Lincoln and it eventually started to be very slow to show any oil pressure and then showed very high oil pressure and finally showed no oil pressure. The King Seeley units usually do not fail and can be repaired if they do fail.

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Installed a new M19 instead of M15 just because I thought it would be the correct pump for a rebuilt engine. Installed pump without pickup tube so I can see the pump gears. Marked one gear lobe with sharpie. Turned engine by hand and then looked at the gear lobe. It had not moved! Turned engine by hand 3 more times, still no gear movement detected! PUMP IS NOT TURNING. I guess that's why no pressure. Maybe gear on cam is slipping. Now the engine will have to be removed because this engine rebuild company didn't do their job properly. What a PITA 

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Posted (edited)

There are gears at back of block under cover plate behind fly wheel.[ See my post March 8 ] These gears drive oil pump off rear of camshaft. During  engine rebuild these  gears should be removed for cleaning oil ways etc.  then refitted. The gear on rear of cam is part of the cam shaft I think and shouldn't slip. I suppose the cam shaft is turning and the cam gear at front has been fitted? Do you have 12 compressions and not just one?

Edited by 38ShortopConv. (see edit history)

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