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Emblems on eBAD - which truly are not good.


TheMoneyPit
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Last time I tried to warn people about some reproduction emblems one person here attacked me thinking my plan was to badmouth them so I could bid... I 100% guarantee you this is not the case! It would be a waste of good money to do so but it bothers me that someone will get burned thinking these are genuine so here I am back on a soapbox.

 

You might want to get a cuppa before continuing... 
 

Ok, I’ll start with pictures showing real genuine emblems and move on to trying to explain how to tell the reproduction ones. For experienced collectors this is second nature but the quality of the reproduction ones put out by Harry Pulfer in the 1960’s are getting old enough to fool many people who are not as experienced. 
 

So, without looking at the backs of the first set, the Crow is pretty much the only one I would say is genuine on a quick look. That said, you can see that the back of each one has a maker’s mark. Note that a couple of these have very smooth backs, others do not- this comes back up in a bit, the point is look for a makers mark which gives you 100% authenticity. You will see that at times there are “too many available to be real” but a makers mark is an expensive thing to copy and very doubtful it was done even from China. A perfect example is the number of NOS Huppmobile and Graham emblems on eBay that are well marked, I believe that someone found a big box of them at some point and they are genuine. Let’s face it, if you were going to counterfeit an emblem that well, would you choose something so common???

 

The next set start getting into murky waters. Three perfectly genuine emblems without marking... okay, I left the cup on the Yellow Cab so you can see where it went. Yup, they marked just the mounting cup! So now you need to study the quality of the emblem. DuPont made just a handful of cars, note the back has a deep stamped outline from manufacturing it, also the remnants of soldering the original cup on. I wish I had a picture of a Pulfer one, that grainy background on front is poorly defined and the back is dead smooth, those are the clues To take away here. The Crawford is marked but has a place later in this saga, without the mark I would believe it a fake.

 

Next set. Here I show you some Pulfer emblems. What do they have in common? First, all would be highly desirable and scarce as anything (and believe me that I wish they were genuine!).  Secondly, they all have smooth as baby butt backsides. Third point, notice the plating process left an odd hue on a few, this can be changed with a little fine steel wool but still noticeable under close inspection. And finally the hardest thing to capture, the front edge is sharp cornered whereas most originals have a slightly chamfered front edge. I will point out one more dead giveaway, the small female threaded stud on the Case is a 100% fake that is commonly seen on Liberty and Wills StClaire emblems.

 

When the Crawford was mentioned I said later, well here’s a kick in my theory above: the front edge is sharp enough to shave with! Between that and the smooth back thank goodness it was marked! You might find another anomaly like this, I am by no means an expert but I feel I’ve experienced enough in the past 45 years to blabber on.

 

So, why am I blabbering along on this cold lousy weather day? Well the end pair of pictures are the catalyst for it, the latest collection of mostly fake emblems on eBAD are going to burn someone and I figured I would try again to keep it from being one of US.
 

Each of those ring bell’s before even wasting time looking at them, and I’m convinced they were made by my old friend Harry Pulfer. The singular picture shows an original CD emblem, if you look very closely at the punctuation on the front and compare it to the one on eBay you can see it is more refined than the reproduction one, I would add a picture of the back of mine but there’s so much solder there it’s useless.


I have to believe that someone is collecting Pulfer emblems, they really were very well done and might be the only way to get one of these outrageously scarce items for a collection, but they are rarely marketed as such. Please use your head before bidding, if it’s too good to be true it usually isn’t.


No more soap box today...

 

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Very good advice. My main tipoff to repro emblems is that most of them look too perfect and unused with the smooth back and lack of any mounting. Another tipoff is a repro that is completely flat when the original was curved or convex, the blue Lincoln V12 hubcap emblems are a good example. My only comment is that I'm not sure some of your rules apply in all cases. I have seen lots of emblems with smooth backs but mount cups with a makers mark, and lots more that are identical with the solder remains of a missing mount cup. If these don't appear suspect on the front I usually assume them to be original. 

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I agree Tex, that is why I show the DuPont, the late Case, and Yellow Cab. I am trying to show exactly what you’re saying... hard fast rules don’t always apply. I think your comment on the quality is spot on, but like the CD example it’s pretty vague and only the experience of getting cooked yourself will help. I tend to be more cautious when looking.

 

If you search for the Michigan emblem, there’s one with a hole in it on eBay, if mine wasn’t marked I would fully believe it was good. It still might be, but I wouldn’t drop that much cash without knowing.

 

You should know that I actually keep you as a search just because I like to see what is selling and for what money. 

 

If if anyone else has input please keep it going!

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Great work.  Hope this helps someone.  I too grind my teeth when I see an obvious fake that is getting stupid bids from a couple of guys who don't know what they are buying.  Looking at the listings, I regularly see dealers selling fakes and advertising them as "rare."  There is one guy there who sells nothing but "rare" items, including a lot of fake and fantasy watch fobs, which of course are miniature radiator emblems in most cases.  Although not 100% were marked, it's safe enough for me to steer clear from those without a makers mark on the back, unless I know for certain it's genuine.  

 

At one time I was emailing some of these sellers letting them know I was trying to help them protect their 100% feedback ratings, but for the most part, I got blown off so stopped trying to help.  It's happened with almost anything collectable, even spark plugs. Right now there are even a couple of fake priming plugs for sale there.  The market is flooded with fake watch fobs.  And to think it all began innocently enough when Harry began reproducing emblems as a service to the hobby.  Once they reach the secondary market however, the horse is outa the barn!  I don't want to drift off into other subjects but can post a few pics of some common fake/fantasy watch fobs if you think it'll help.

Terry

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The guy who peeves me off is the jerk who glues a reproduction Dodge Brothers or other make emblem to things and says they are real. He glues them to exhaust deflectors, key cases, letter openers, watch fobs, etc. I made the mistake of picking up one of the watch fobs before I knew better. It is a cheap piece of junk with a wimpy leather strap and the emblem fell off as I removed it from the wrapping. He must use a glue gun with cheesy glue.

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I have both Staver Chicago cuff links and a Staver Chicago watch fob. All original . No one would ever make reproductions from a company almost no one has ever heard of, at least not since the horse drawn days. Buggy's and carriages were their main product, automobiles a definite after thought.

I have not seen another pair of the cuff links. But the watch fobs turn up from time to time, and generally not all that expensive. I think I paid about $20 or $25 for mine.

It's hard to see in the photo but the fob has a makers name, F H NOBLE &CO   CHICAGO at the bottom of the rear side. I am not sure where the cuff links are at the moment.

Greg in Canada

DSC_9928 (2).JPG

DSC_9929 (2).JPG

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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The Staver iltems are great, and you are right that sometimes the odd-ball low production stuff is not reproduced, but I've seem some pretty rare fobs that have come up for sale that surprised me at first glance - but on closer inspection, it proved to be yet another fake.  I don't think all of them are intentionally produced to be deceptive.  They were intended as souvenir items or collectible pieces, but as I mentioned earlier, once they get into the hands of an opportunistic evil-bay seller who doesn't know the difference, we seem them promoted as something they are not.  This Buick fob for example has been widely reproduced, but looking on the back, you can clearly see the manufacturers name. I've also included a page from a catalog offering reproduction fobs that can be bought brand new.  Unfortunately many of these show up being advertised as "Vintage" or "Guaranteed original" or "came from an old collection."  None of that means anything of course.

Terry

Buick Fob square shaped original.JPG

Buick fob square shaped original reverse side.JPG

Page showig modern repro fobs being made today.JPG

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I am happy to see this starting such a conversation!

 

Keiser, I think that’s the same guy who is churning out those fantasy shift knobs that started a similar discussion in this parts for sale section a few weeks back. 

 

Staver, that’s a great pair of items to go with your car! Never seen either but like Terry I have seen plenty of reproduction fobs for obscure cars. Maybe a separate thread for fobs would be in order?

 

 I don’t know anything about spark plugs, but I could see someone making something like her out of a bisque figure as a gag and now showing up in the market???? You can teach us about those please!

 

Joe, I’ve never tried to collect the brass body or dealers tags nor anything from Canada, but would think yours a scarce piece. Did Ford subcontract to that firm? If so that scarcity might double.

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20 hours ago, TheMoneyPit said:

I agree Tex, that is why I show the DuPont, the late Case, and Yellow Cab. I am trying to show exactly what you’re saying... hard fast rules don’t always apply. I think your comment on the quality is spot on, but like the CD example it’s pretty vague and only the experience of getting cooked yourself will help. I tend to be more cautious when looking.

 

If you search for the Michigan emblem, there’s one with a hole in it on eBay, if mine wasn’t marked I would fully believe it was good. It still might be, but I wouldn’t drop that much cash without knowing.

 

You should know that I actually keep you as a search just because I like to see what is selling and for what money. 

 

If if anyone else has input please keep it going!

Thanks. I don't buy much to keep anymore but I am always interested in the rare ones. I have a few good repros in my collection that I bought deliberately, they hold places for originals if I can ever find them at a price I am willing to pay. I've gotten to the point with my Ebay sales that if I can buy a resale item at a good price I put most of them up at a $9.99 starting price. That way I get a lot of bids and usually do OK, it is also a pretty good guide to what a specific emblem is worth. I see the same ridiculously priced repros (or even originals) that just sit there for months or even years without selling, not sure I understand that business model!

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When I was very young, my parents found and bought a 1921 Grant Six roadster; a real barn find. While the car was apart, Mom n Dad went to tours in our 29 Model A roadster...with me and my dog in the rumble seat. One time we were at an old car event of some kind in Findlay, Ohio. (The year must have been 1961, I think.) ANYWAY, I remember a very old gentleman coming up to my Dad and saying something like, "Young man, are you the guy who has a Grant Six motorcar?" Dad replied that he did, but that it was apart for restoration. The gentleman then went on to tell us that he had been an employee of Grant Motors, when they were located in Findlay, and that he personally had test driven just about every single Grant vehicle ever produced. 

 

I'll tell more of the story of our Grant at another time. But for this thread, let me get to the point. The gentleman told my parents that he still had some old Grant items at home, including some new old stock radiator badges, etc. He wondered if they were interested? Of course they left the show, and followed the man home. 

 

I was in first grade, or thereabouts, so my memory is not so good on the details. But I do know that we came home with lots of new old stock emblems, some photos, body tags, and even some water-transfer decals. But the emblems are what is relevant to this thread, so allow me to post a photo of most of them, including a beautifully-detailed watch fob with miniature emblem, and some kind of decorative ribbon. Several of these emblems have no makers mark on back, and no reverse image of the images on front. But I am quite certain that these emblems are all quite authentic and old. Here are some photos: 

Grant assort 1.jpg

GrantOz ribbon 1.jpg

Grant fob 2.jpg

Grant fob 3.jpg

Grant decal 2.jpg

Grant red blue 2.jpg

Grant red blue 3.jpg

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 1:13 PM, 1937hd45 said:

Thanks! There may be an old emblem or two  around here, but I never got into collecting them. Fun looking at others collections and learning about them. Did they make an OWEN emblem? That would make a great belt buckle for a grandson. Bob 

 

Bob,  here's one   https://www.ebay.com/itm/OWEN-MAGNETIC-AUTOMOBILE-RADIATOR-BADGE-CAR-AUTO-EMBLEM-SIGN/153839901047?hash=item23d1929977:g:BYkAAOSwUmheTyub 

 

Howard Dennis

Edited by hddennis (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...
4 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I found the Staver cuff link's I mentioned above. Anyone seen another pair ?

 

lump , that is an amazing range of Grant items !!

 

Greg in Canada

 

Greg, 

No, I have never seen them...or anything else Staver either...at least not in person. It is so cool that you have this vehicle. I hope that by some miracle I might get to see it some day. 

 

And thanks for the kind words on my Grant items. I've had them a long time. 

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Greg, by the way...what is the image on the front side of those Staver cuff links? For the life of me I cannot shake the image of a chunky caribou doing it's best imitation of John Travolta dancing in SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER, every time I look at it! 🤪

 

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It is a very unusual image to represent a Company. It's stag with an arrow piercing its neck. I have never understood the significance, none of the written material I have from the company explain it either.

 It goes back at least 10 years before Staver added automobiles to its extensive horse drawn line . Staver built buggy's and carriages for many years, much like Studebaker.

The Company used the image on most of the advertising I have seen.

 

Greg

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Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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