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1912 Cadillac Model 30 to be auctioned


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Looks like a decent car..........with a 50’s restoration. Too bad about the color. That tells you everything else you need to know. For the correct price, it would be a great at home restoration project. Interesting car when done, and drives in the 35-40 mph range. Not a car for a beginner! 

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Is that  a body style they offered in 1912?  Looks like a 1911 demi-tonneau body.   Definitely 1912 running gear.    It appears to have most of the right Cadillac parts on it and could be a good buy for someone.

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Yes, it was offered in 12. They also offered nickel instead of brass finish on the brightwork.

 

PS - maybe a early 12? The car looks very correct to my eye, but it’s been years since I played with a Caddy 4.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Yes, it was offered in 12. They also offered nickel instead of brass finish on the brightwork.

I have a set of nickel side lights and looking for a car to put them on. Unless someone else needs them. 

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4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Yes, it was offered in 12. They also offered nickel instead of brass finish on the brightwork.

 

Nickel was an option in 1911.  I don't think many 1912 Cadillacs would have had brass trim.

 

The ads that I've seen don't show demi-tonneau for 1912  (see image), but maybe one could be ordered?  Perhaps the auction car in question is a rare 1912 body style.

Cadillac ad.jpg

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According to Walter M.P. McCall’s ‘80 Years of Cadillac LaSalle’ — which I have found perfectly brimming with error — the Demi-Tonneau and the ‘front-doorless standard touring car’ were both dropped for 1912.

There is no mention of brass being offered as an option - nickel appears to have been standard.

 

(Though not being an expert - I’ve only seen these Cadillacs in books.)

E84BB530-CF6F-48B9-AF79-979814E45EB8.jpeg

Edited by Ben P.
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My 12 nickel comment came from a forty year owner of a 12 with extensive early Cadillac background, but he is gone n ow and I can’t ask where he got his information. Some of the early Cadillac group guys have copies of the production logs, so it shouldn’t be hard to find out about the body style. I had a 1914 with the two speed rear end........great car. 

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17 hours ago, edinmass said:

Looks like a decent car..........with a 50’s restoration. Too bad about the color. That tells you everything else you need to know. For the correct price, it would be a great at home restoration project. Interesting car when done, and drives in the 35-40 mph range. Not a car for a beginner! 

what would a correct price be for something like this? i am clueless about Cadillacs

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Depends on head condition and a few other things..........its worth 25k as is.........add or subtract when standing in front of it..........fun driving car that has a good following, a club, and helpful other owners.....your not out in the cold like some other makes.....

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37 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Depends on head condition and a few other things..........its worth 25k as is.........add or subtract when standing in front of it..........fun driving car that has a good following, a club, and helpful other owners.....your not out in the cold like some other makes.....

thank you, i do appreciate your prompt reply. i will definitely bid on it

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Yes & no on the side lights. 1911 Cadillacs were equipped with Gray & Davis #934 lamps but they had the "CADILLAC" script with "Made by Gray & Davis" embossed on the cap. Standard was brass, nickel plated was optional. Plain lamps like yours without a car brand on them were for after market sales or were used on lessor brands that didn't pay for branding. Cadillac built 10,000 cars in 1911 so it is likely that the no-name lamps may actually be more rare than "CADILLAC" script lamps.

Edited by jdome
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I have a 1912 Brochure and other factory and published materials and there is no indication that Cadillac made this Demi-Tonneau as a 1912 model on the 1912 chassis. I went to the auction site and looked at photos and it is definitely a 1912 chassis with the bigger 40 HP engine, with bigger hubs and axles than 1911, even though the 11 & 12 have the same 116" wheel base. This car also has the new for 1912 electric start battery box and mechanism and missing the 11 hand crank hardware. The 12 wheels are also bigger than 11 but the wheels on this car have been replaced, probably model T.  Cadillac of this vintage have very distinct oval shaped spokes and these are too round & fat to be correct. Also the lug bolt count doesn't mesh and the hub is obviously too large for the spoke center.

 

This is a 1911 Demi-tonneau body. The Demi and roadster bodies used the long sweeping front fenders and short running boards like this car has. Other body styles had shorter fenders with longer running boards.  Spare tires should be mounted at the right running board at front where it meets the front fender. In one photo you can see the mounting brackets for the tire carrier still riveted to the chassis too far forward for the long fenders but where they should be for short fender/long run board. That also convinces me that the 1912 Chassis left the factory with some other body on it with short fenders.

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On 2/16/2020 at 6:52 PM, edinmass said:

Yes, it was offered in 12. They also offered nickel instead of brass finish on the brightwork.

 

PS - maybe a early 12? The car looks very correct to my eye, but it’s been years since I played with a Caddy 4.

 

You could have brass in 12 as an option. Cadillac didn't want to lose a sale to someone who didn't like the new fangled nickel.

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I have been following this car, I will most likely attend the auction. Anyone looking to purchase should be prepared to spend a good amount of money for having proper rims/wheels made and tires purchased.  The ones on it are far from correct.  Coker is currently sourcing a new manufacturer for their wheelworks offerings.  They said it could be anywhere from a year to two years before a new customer would be able to get wheels.  

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I noticed the wheels.  If the heads are cracked or repaired be ready with money. Never can tell until you are there.  Recently saw a very nice 1912 that needed nothing and was a proven tour car sell ..........very slowly at 65

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Coker is not the only source for wheels. Cadillac went from 34X4 tires in 1911 to 36X4 in '12 so that is an obtainable set of original 28" rims at Hershey. I would prefer to find good, solid, original rims & lock rings if you know what you are looking for.  It looks like the car has the correct hubs so you just have to find correct rims. I have Stutzman in Ohio re-wood my wheels. I had a smaller set for 28X3 done last year for $200 each. 36's may be more like $300. He told me about 6 weeks and they were done in 5. I don't know about how their prices compare but their work is as good as anyone else's and you don't have to put up with any of that "take-it-or-leave-it" prima donna stuff.  This is not a model T but nothing is unavailable for 1 and 4 cylinder Cadillac if you look for it or have deeper pockets than you need for a model T. They made 8,000 to 15,000 of the 4's per year so lots of parts out there. Someone is always gathering orders for another run of heads & copper jackets. If you buy a couple for insurance, you'll never need them. Having said that, the heads are not the only issue with 1 & 4 Cadillac. They are infamous for their hinged con rods and gears or anything that turns on a shaft is pinned to it and that is a long term wear problem you need to stay ahead of. In other words, its a typical brass car.

 

You can click on "lot description" on the auction and it will bring up a little more info on the car. The engine # is 65109. According to my records that is about 1/3rd into 1912 production of engine #61,000 to 75,000. The "VIN" is 42046 which is probably the car serial number and a more accurate indication of production date but Cadillacs are documented in the early years by engine. The engine # and $50 can buy you a build sheet on this car from Cadillac Archives. The build sheet will tell you the body type, paint colors, tire size/brand, options, etc. that were mated to the engine, and the date it was shipped to city/state. The car is described as "older restoration to paint & interior. engine rebuilt 2002" (whatever that means). The auction house claims that the car was appraised by "Auto Appraisal Group LLC." I'm not familiar with them but it is interesting that they describe the car as "circa" 1912. You have to request a copy of their appraisal.

 

I'm convinced its not a legitimate car in that Cadillac didn't build one like it in 1912. That doesn't matter to some people. There are lots of model T's out there made up of favorite black vintage bodies with earlier brass radiators & lamps with bigger & better late engines.

This is a Cadillac version.

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20 hours ago, edinmass said:

I noticed the wheels.  If the heads are cracked or repaired be ready with money. Never can tell until you are there.  Recently saw a very nice 1912 that needed nothing and was a proven tour car sell ..........very slowly at 65

 

$65 is maybe top end today. $80 just a couple years ago for a really good one and a legitimate 09-11 Demi Tonneau is the most desirable model. Not only does the top go down but the back seat comes off. I was watching another thread about green paint hurting the re-sale value of cars. What does a bustardized model/year mongrel do to the resale ???? Although this one is painted in "RESALE RED" so does that move it out faster????

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53 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

DOUBT THIS CAR WILL GO BELOW 45K. BUICKS BRING 35K..............


Shall we  play the guess the guess the price game? I’m in................28k tops.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Some stuff on the market really seems to be changing.  I think I'm with Ed on this one,  especially with the unknowns and after my recent Purchase along with several other cars I have seen with unknown mechanics sell for what seems like real cheap money.  The cost of making stuff right is driving down the prices as it goes up. 

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Fire engine red on a very early car.........-2

Possibly wrong year body on chassis...........-15

Wrong wheels.......oversize...........-2.5

Currently not running..........-5

Unknown provenance and seller is an auction ..........-5

Total deductions.........-29.5

 

Options to buy correct, better restored cars without difficulty, and needing no work, hurts the car by over 50 percent.

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2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

 

ps didnt see this- but think one could be liable for up to 30% bidders fee and tax...........................ouch.


Another reason it will go much less than expected. Last fall a Pierce Arrow sedan sold at the Owls Head museum auction at $13500 or thereabouts, it was listed online shortly after in the 30k range. Auctions are a great place to roll the dice just like a casino, sometimes you can get a good price, other times you get caught up in the bidding and loose track of emotions... knowing when to stop is the trick.

 

So now, 28k bid turns into 36.4 at 30%... I think Ed might be in the ballpark.

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You can buy any part for any T, and they are not too hard to find, and not much money. Try and find parts for a 12 Caddy........I have done it. There is very, very little to purchase regardless of cost. Brass on a budget ........the T is fantastic, fun, and easy. NOTHING ELSE IS!

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2 hours ago, mercer09 said:

OK, go for it. Still think I win!

 

🙂

 

by the way- are brass T's now 5k ?

 

ps didnt see this- but think one could be liable for up to 30% bidders fee and tax...........................ouch.

Yes, I did notice the 17% buyers premium. So add taxes, shipping, and new wheels quite a bit of change. 

 

The $50.00 fee from GM Heritage would confirm what body it left the factory with. Extra holes along the top frame rail could confirm a different original body style. 

 

An original running estate 1912 Cadillac was sold on eBay recently by the son of the deceased. Car was in Michigan sold for $68k less eBay fees. You just never know. 

 

1912 Cadillac first year self starter and electric lights. The body is Cadillac. 27" or 28" wheels could be had. One could put Kelsey 25" demountable detachable wheels with 35 x 5 tires and the car would look good. FWIW

 

Charley

 

 

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 I think I'm with Ed on this one,

 

 

Randy, youre turning into a traitor..........

 

did Ed make you buy him a cheese steak?

 

Al knows the deal..........................

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22 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

just me- I read 24.5% bidders fee plus possible state sales tax- where did you see 17%????

 

regarding the 68k sales price on ebay- ebay fees are only 125. so yes, cads are worth a bit more then 28k.....

Mercer, go to the original posters auction link. Click on the Cadillac photo. Type  Cadillac  in the search box then click search. That will bring up lot 1081 the 1912 Cadillac. Click the photo again and scroll down to Lot details. Click on that.

 

OR you can just read what I copied there.

Absentee Bidding option closes two (2) hours before the auction begins unless bid is placed in person at our gallery. Click image, description, or LOT DETAIL button at right to see full lot details, including condition report and any additional images. Prices Realized include 17% Buyer's Premium.

 

I forgot about the $125.00 flat fee for automobiles on eBay. Mostly sell parts there and it's at least 10% plus PayPal fees. I beg your forgiveness! Lol

Edited by just me (see edit history)
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Good morning.  My name is Patrick Reeve and my father and son and I run a machine shop that we specialize in early  engines and drive lines.  If any one needs them, a couple of years ago we made a couple sets of conn. rods to replace the hinged rods that are of H beam style and ARP rod bolts, 4140 annealed and stressed relieved material .  We made them for insert type bearings or we can Babbitt them also.  They are for the 1.625 size rod journal crank pin diameter( I believe the earlier style crank).  If any one needs them, just let me know.  Thank you, Patrick 315-663-1569 cell    or 315-655-8812 shop 

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I have been to the Reeve's shop in central N.Y.. state that is SE of Syracuse near Cazenovia, NY. they do superb machine work . Franklin club members have used their services for decades.

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Seems just about right.....I called out 28k tops. Not too far off. At the sale price, I hope it’s an end user, as there isn’t any room for them to flip it. If the engine is in good condition, it’s an interesting early car you can play with while you drive it. 

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