Cost of maintenance - old versus new

[72caddy]

I saw this today and it quickly got me over thinking about insurance and space I have spent or consumed for housing cars I rarely drive. 

 

https://flip.it/j05gJL

 

Granted my cars are not super cars, but the numbers that are casually mentioned make me realize that even collections of older high quality cars have higher up keep costs than I realized.

 

 

[padgett]

 

Lessee, all of my cars are kept at home and I change oil myself (Mobil 1 about $5/gt) mainly because it takes so much less time. Also change filer and lube each time. I buy my tires and batteries (AGM) at Sam's when they have a free installation special. Parts I usually buy from Amazon, eBay, or local Pick-A-Part..

 

Biggest cost is insurance, about $600/year for four cars (plus two daily drivers but everyone has those, only difference is they are all paid for so no book-of-the-month.. Suspect cable TV cost more.

 

Only real difference is some I can diagnose/retune with a computer. Others I need to do the old fashioned way with real gauges and ignition scopes.

[John_S_in_Penna]

That's a very revealing article, and thanks for sharing it.

 

I'm probably happier with my 1970's antique cars than

he is with his high-cost exotics.  Most of my cars can be

repaired by an appointment with the local mechanic on

a few days' notice, and they have affordable purchase and

repair costs.

 

And I dare say that most affordable old cars are more

pleasing to the eye, and more comfortable to share with

friends and family, than the angular, bizarrely styled exotics.

 

Our hobby can be enjoyed at any level, even modest ones.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[padgett]

Well said. When enjoying driving does it matter if the clock says Cartier or Bulgari as long as it keeps time.

[72caddy]

I like the fact my Caddy clock is broken and the 19' does not have a clock. On the rare occasion I have the time to drive these, time does not matter. 

[keithb7]

In terms of insurance costs, I carry liability to cover me. Collision damage?  I'll take the risk and fix it myself. Theft insurance on a 1953 4 door with a torque converter and a clutch? Lol, not many would attempt to steal it.  I perform all my own maintenance and repairs. For me it's a fairly affordable hobby compared to some others. As someone else also said here, the hobby can be enjoyed at many levels. In my experience piling friends in a big old 4 door and heading for ice creme together, really is fun no matter how you look at it!

Edited February 15, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Guess I value mine a little more. In Florida if you have comprehensive cracked windshields are fixed for free.

[3macboys]

5 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Our hobby can be enjoyed at any level, even modest ones.

I consider this hobby to actually be quite practical - for the guys that play with boats, be power or sail it doesn't matter - what they spend on dockage, storage and maintenance in a year would astound you - if you were to golf start adding up memberships, greens fees, clubhouse costs etc - at the end of the day we still have something to show for our efforts.  

[JamesR]

I'm assuming most (if not all) collectors are aware of this, but licensing/registering vehicles as antiques greatly reduces those particular fees. In my state it's a one time payment of $79 (or something like that.) I bought another antique car in 2018, but before that, I hadn't paid a dime in registration fees in 8 or 9 years. It means your old car can't be a daily driver, but mine never were anyway. 

[1912Staver]

Small sailboats can be done on a tight budget.  And these days older fiberglass sailboats are available remarkably cheaply. I agree moorage can add up quickly but most of the budget sailors around me tie up to a firmly anchored float for free and use a dinghy to access the boat. Get a haul out once a year and do your own bottom work for a substantial saving.  Or if you have a full keel tie up to a dock with a sandy bottom and wait for the tide to go out.

I used to crew on a 46 foot sloop years ago. 3 of us could do the entire bottom over a weekend . Hot , dirty and the owner bought us lots of beer. You can operate a 24 foot or so sloop or yawl on a very thin budget if you put your mind to it.

I like sailing nearly as much as old cars but there are only so many hours in a day.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[classiccarjack]

8 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

That's a very revealing article, and thanks for sharing it.

 

I'm probably happier with my 1970's antique cars than

he is with his high-cost exotics.  Most of my cars can be

repaired by an appointment with the local mechanic on

a few days' notice, and they have affordable purchase and

repair costs.

 

And I dare say that most affordable old cars are more

pleasing to the eye, and more comfortable to share with

friends and family, than the angular, bizarrely styled exotics.

 

Our hobby can be enjoyed at any level, even modest ones.

 

Very well put sir!  I can't agree more.

[zepher]

10 hours ago, JamesR said:

I'm assuming most (if not all) collectors are aware of this, but licensing/registering vehicles as antiques greatly reduces those particular fees. In my state it's a one time payment of $79 (or something like that.) I bought another antique car in 2018, but before that, I hadn't paid a dime in registration fees in 8 or 9 years. It means your old car can't be a daily driver, but mine never were anyway. 

 

I like the look of the YOM plates on cars.

And in Calif there is very little saved by getting Historical Vehicle plates.  Politicians in Calif have never seen a tax they didn't like or a tax they didn't want to raise.

 

But back to the article - one of my cousins owns a 2018 Mazerati with the Ferrari engine.  He said it costs him $30k a year in maintenance because he drives the heck out of it.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by zepher (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Watched the Video, too old to understand brand new exotics, wish someone with the same passion for Pre War cars could shoot a video of his/her collection, skip the cost of maintenance, nobody cares.  Bob

[padgett]

Bottom line: if you keep them at home the hobby does not need to cost much. If elsewhere all bets are off.

[Mark Huston]

I guess not being a fan of European “supercars” has saved me a ton of money to blow on real cars.   

[1937hd45]

It's a generational thing, instant satisfaction and questionable "fame", can't imagine any true collectors walking around with a calculator giving total strangers the total yearly cost  of his yearly maintenance costs. Maybe he's bought a home for a disabled vet and didn't want to mention it. Bob 

Edited February 15, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Generally speaking old cars require more maintenance but it is easier and cheaper than new cars. A prime example is the air cooled VW beetle, built until the 1990s but basically a 1938 design. It needs the oil changed every 2000 miles, but only takes 2 quarts and no filter. Valves should be adjusted every 4000 miles, but this can be done in 15 minutes for the cost of a $5 set of valve cover gaskets every second time.

 

Old cars require more frequent oil changes and tuneups, brake adjustments etc but usually can be done at home with a few hand tools. Modern cars seldom require service but when they do, it is often a very expensive dealer only situation for example, some cars require valve adjustments only at 50,000 mile intervals but you need to change shims and use a special tool to do it.VW Rabbit for example.

 

An owner who is aware, and does his own maintenance need not spend a lot of money to have a reliable vintage vehicle. But you can't just drive them with no upkeep like you can late models.

[1912Staver]

Yes, those newfangled SOHC Rabbits. My old Auto - X er. Formula Super Vee power. About 185 HP. And remarkably reliable compared to an air cooled VW with similar HP. The car was built in 1972 with a twin cam Lotus Ford. Converted to run in FSV in the early 1980's. These days just a cone killer waiting for

a deep pocket new owner who will take it back to its 1972, F3 / Formula B configuration.

 

 

Greg in Canada

Edited February 16, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Now I am confused, went to a driver's school with Formula Fords (said I couldn't drift one. Could.) thought the idea of FSV was the same as FV just later/larger engines but still flat fours from Wolfsburg. What have I missed in the last 40 years ?

[1912Staver]

FSV's are a whole different animal than a formula Vee.  Potentially near Formula Atlantic lap times. The earliest cars were air cooled , but the class moved on to the water cooled engines early on. Full tub chassis on the later ones . Wings and slicks are fine. The middle photo  is a early air cooled car, still a few in vintage racing . But Many were updated to liquid cooled. Lola even sold a kit as I am sure other makers did as well.

 

Lola T 328 from later 1970's is typical of the older cars.  My car , with the right driver could stay with the pack up to the later 1980's . But as the cars got newer /faster it was just too old. It became a C sports racer which is how I bought it.

 

 

Greg in Canada 

Edited February 16, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Have fond memories of rebuilding a transaxle of an ASR on the back of a trailer between heats. Synchros were mangled so just left them out and told the driver he had a crash box. Won the race.

[1912Staver]

ASR's are well above my pay grade. I bought the VW powered car { 1972 Elden Formula B } with the intention of running it as a CSR. But the body it came with had several problems, heavy, poor fit , a side mounted ,ducted rad. set up that cooled poorly on shorter, slower tracks like the closest one to me.  So I kept looking until I found my S2000 Lola last summer.

The Elden is returning to open wheel status. And once I finish the Porsche 914 gearbox installation it will be my Auto X car for a few seasons. Hewland gear boxes  don't really like auto X. They will break 1 st . gear with often quite expensive repair bills. The main cases are also prone to cracking if too much HP is applied too suddenly. As in your typical Auto X launch.

The white / red / blue body is how I bought it.

Greg

[padgett]

Had an easy answer for that, used to start in 2nd, SBC would still overtorque the tires and saved a shift 15 feet out.

[1912Staver]

That's  fine if you have a SBC.   Little 1.6 ,4 bangers with big valves, track cams, twin weber's etc. don't do much of anything below 4000 rpm. You can have lots of 7000 rpm torque with a VW 1600 but try a low rpm ,second gear standing start and a stall or pop back through the carbs is as likely as anything.

They make a stronger , lower ratio 1st gear pair for Hewland's used in auto- X but it is expensive. And you are still left with a dog box that has a main case that is unhappy with anything more than about 130 HP. And it is a $5000.00 + gearbox when it breaks. 

Porsche 914 is a syncro box that is essentially the same internally as an older 911 box. And they can easily be found in the $500.00- $800.00 range. And they are a relatively easy conversion for a Hewland car.  Or use a later CV style air-cooled VW box. Not as strong but even easier to install and very easy on the budget.

Both cheap and reliable.

A sub 1000 lb. car with 160 - 190 HP and good grip suits my driving style. Also older formula cars are cheapish and very easy to work on. Everything is right there in front of you.

V8 cars are lots of fun but generally slower , substantially heavier and much harder on tires.

I will leave the 500 lb " go karts " with 1000 cc sport bike engines for the younger guy's. 

 

Greg

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

Wasn't talking about this century.

 

ps what about the Renault R25/UN1 ? Supposed to take up to 400 hp & all kinds of gears available.

[1912Staver]

They are good units but quite rare in North America. The only ones I ever see are from Lotus Esprit's . Definitely popular in Europe where they are every day items at the wreckers.

They are usually found in larger V6 Renault's that if sold in North America at all , were in handful numbers. Also harder to adapt.

There are already adapters to bolt a Hewland to any of the popular smaller engines. So a VW or 914 box swap can use more or less off the shelf engineering. The 914 is a bit more work as you don't flip it for mid engine.

So you have to weld bosses to the adapter and redrill the 4 main stud holes. Not that difficult. Many people think that the 4 studs that attach a VW engine to the gearbox are spaced the same top to bottom but they are not. And it is enough of a difference you can't just elongate the holes.

Way easier than using a Renault box with anything other than a Lotus or Renault engine.

 

Greg

[padgett]

Renault transaxle was used in the DeLorean and Vixen motor homes. Bolted right up to a BMW 2.4 TD.

[1912Staver]

Sorry, I forgot about the DeLorean version. They are rear engine so they must either flip the entire transaxle or have a different ring and pinion from the mid engine versions. Not a lot of DeLorean parts cars at my local pick a part , so I guess it doesn't matter that much.

The motor home I was completely unaware of.  Are Vixen's reasonably popular ? I had a gray market BMW 524 TD several years ago. Very nice engine if a bit underpowered  . It must of been quite underwhelming  in even a small motorhome. The car was a great highway 

machine until one day the dual mass flywheel self dismantled.

 

Greg

Edited February 18, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)