Pacewagon Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Anyone interested in an interesting part of Henry Ford history? I have a 1895 Hoopes, Bro & Darlington Buck Wagon. It was originally built for Henry Ford’s brother John in 1895. Later gifted to Henry and then displayed in Greenfield Village. $8,000.00 Todd Harroun Kalamazoo, MI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacewagon Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Albright Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Needs to be back on the Ford Museum. Thanks George Albright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I must be missing something, but how can the "original" shipping tag for a wagon built in 1895 sport a zip code? 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Albright Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I have to admit I wondered the same thing! I think the zip code system started in the 1960s. George Albright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Yes, mid 1960’s for zip codes, the zip code is even quoted in the “authentication” letter. The big ugly Phillips screws holding the “original” tag is a nice touch too. Buyer beware on this one, too many red flags. Natural wood and not painted, modern wheel hubs....when it doesn’t feel old, then it’s not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) The Michigan Ave. address on the tag is the site of a current-day Ford dealer and Hoopes themselves went under in 1972 which explains the tag, but it looks like their core business was more to do with making wheels than anything else. It doesn't really make sense that in the era someone would have ordered a wagon from hundreds of miles away when there were so many more options closer to home. I'd bet that perhaps Hoopes rebuilt or made new wheels for a restoration project in the final years before they went under. Edited February 8, 2020 by W_Higgins (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 The Chinese combination regular/phillips screws they put THROUGH the ID tag are a nice touch. I wonder why they left off the web address? Maybe you just have to find them on Facebook... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) Maybe it is a north of the 49th thing but I have never heard of a "Buck" wagon. All the farmers I knew from back in the 40's, and they were in their 80's and 90's called them buck board wagons and lots of them were used regularly up to and past the mid 50's. Edited February 8, 2020 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 If those screws were authentic 1890's they would be torx drive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af14/auburn-fall/lots/r8042/569980 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermontboy Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Hoopes Bro & Darlington produced wagon (and later car) wooden wheels. They did not incorporate until 1903. That probably accounts for both the tag and the new wagon wheels. Sothebys descriptions are only as accurate as those they pay to authenticate are. In this case even a rudimentary glance at historical data would have prevented this apparent misinformation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Looks like the hitch was an optional extra (one or two horse). May be the plan was to make a motorbuggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I wonder WHY that tag is affixed to it like a licence plate. No one I know would display the original invoice of their car pop-riveted to the fender behind clear Plexiglas. Craig 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmoke Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) First of all, I think this is a "Buggy" chassis, and not a buckboard. Buckboards were designed for "trucking" stuff, typically had the seat up front and a decent sized box. They were usually un-sprung (thus the term buck) and more robust vis-a-vis wheels. This buggy is curious for many reasons. It has no dashboard? The seat is very utilitarian compared to most I have seen. The steering is standard, and can take single or double shafts. I bought and sold this buggy last year, a very nicely appointed one from circa 1900. The double shafts hook to wagon at same point as single shafts, but have a double "whiffle tree". An interesting feature of the posted wagon is it appears to have a foot operated "sprague-type" brake. As for provenance of the posted item, and whether it is a "buckboard", I'll leave that to whomever puts down the cash. BTW, I bought this one for $400 and sold it a month later for $600, didn't have a place to keep it. Edited February 8, 2020 by Gunsmoke (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacewagon Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 Well crap, where were you guys prior to me hitting that “place Bid” button? i knew it, things didn’t add up with me either. if this actually was what the auction company was claiming well then it needed to be in a museum not at a small auction in Michigan. I just sent the Greenfield Village Museum an email asking if they have any knowledge of this piece. Ya I know, probably should have done that prior to my winning bid. I have two thoughts; The story is either total BS or maybe it was sent back to the factory for a total restoration at a much later date. The wood is all new, no question there, but the iron work is old. Maybe I will go back to my original thoughts, make a table out of it. If I get a response from the museum I will post it. thank you for your posts. Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyRegister Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 B. John Ford was born in 1919 and died in 2001. He owned Bob Ford in Dearborn. I'll definitely have an improved understanding in the future about the reliabillity of statements made by Mr. Linn and Mr. Yagoda, as well as the statements of those who quote them without research. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ben P. said: No, Henry did have a younger brother John - 1865-1927. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford incorrectly listed his siblings on his page. (Link above + seen in top pic below) But on the family tree Wikipedia also links -John correctly appears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford_family_tree - bottom pic below). StanleyRegister nailed it. B. John Ford (the name on the tag) owned Bob Ford in Dearborn. That is the address of the dealership on the tag. Everything fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Skelly Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Marvin Yagoda died a few years ago, so he can't clarify anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ben P. said: That is correct. I’m saying Henry did also have a younger brother John (1865-1927) and the two got conflated in the ‘authentication’. Separating the facts here. I see. Since nobody was debating the existence of Henry's brother I thought things were going off in a different direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Pacewagon said: Well crap, where were you guys prior to me hitting that “place Bid” button? i knew it, things didn’t add up with me either. if this actually was what the auction company was claiming well then it needed to be in a museum not at a small auction in Michigan. I just sent the Greenfield Village Museum an email asking if they have any knowledge of this piece. Ya I know, probably should have done that prior to my winning bid. I have two thoughts; The story is either total BS or maybe it was sent back to the factory for a total restoration at a much later date. The wood is all new, no question there, but the iron work is old. Maybe I will go back to my original thoughts, make a table out of it. If I get a response from the museum I will post it. thank you for your posts. Todd I'm sorry for your bum purchase. This sort of thing happens all too much. Hopefully you'll discover something positive and documentable in the process. There are two ways you can move forward with it -- either represent it accurately for what it is after you've learned all you can about it, or tell the next guy it was used to haul Abraham Lincoln's body to the railroad station! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I might be able to help with the provenance. I have the best Notary Public money can buy. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 59 minutes ago, W_Higgins said: There are two ways you can move forward with it Either with one horse or two horses.🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Two SLOTTED screws sure would be in keeping with the age f the vehicle. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 This thread is what the AACA should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, padgett said: This thread is what the AACA should be. Well it is, isn’t it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyRegister Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 There's a fair amount of recent auction history on this object. There are some fine auction companies who are intent on making sure that their sale descriptions contain no falsehoods or suppositions. They do their own research and fact checking, especially when there are claims of famous events or famous personal associations. Other auction companies copy and paste what they get from the consigner. Aug 27-31, 2014 https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/af14/auburn-fall/lots/r8042/569980 Actual bid results for lot N840 are on page 10 of this document - https://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/classic-talk/378834d1410209914-gas-monkey-64-1-2-mustang-auburn-2014.pdf Jul 29, 2018 https://www.proxibid.com/Art-Antiques-Collectibles/Collectibles/Henry-Ford-Buck-Wagon/lotInformation/43200311 Dec 18, 2019 https://www.biddergy.com/Listing/Details/141377859/Late-1800s-Buck-Wagon-Owned-by-Henry-Ford Here's the golden provenance rule - Only period documents are proof. Do not accept a modern document as proof. It may contain accurate facts, and it may serve as a guide for finding period documents. And it most definitely may not. Do not accept quoted reminiscences as proof. The most recent speaker's sources, or their sources' sources, may have been deceived, no matter how honestly and faithfully the most recent speaker reports a conversation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacewagon Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 Thanks for those links Stanley, I had seen the Sotheby’s but not the Proxibid. i was the idiot for the Biddergy. Sure makes me wonder what the hell Marvin was notarizing - bunch of BS basically. I did get a response back from Greenfield Village, said they would look into it. it will be interesting to see if that part of the story is even true. I will post after they reply again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 It's all the same wagon??? Seemed to me the Sotheby’s was lighter wood at least. One at the top of this thread looked to have some dark stain applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyRegister Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 You're welcome Pacewagon. Best of luck with your research and I hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) Wonder how much time it will take a qualified wood worker to repair the Phillips screw damage, or is a new piece of wood in order? Bob Edited February 9, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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