Seller with unrealistic expectation

[1912Staver]

Sorry about that 1937hd. Here are some of the photo's I took of the actual relic. Diamond in the rough ? The independent rear end is interesting but a bit of a kludge. They normally used a standard Morris Minor live axle. Front suspension is also Morris. Steering rack has been moved to the front, neither a good idea ; you have to swap the spindles side to side, or in this case particularly well done. 

Please excuse the quality of the photos. The building where it is stored has poor lighting and my camera is so- so on flash setting. What is hard to see in the photo's is the amount of poorly executed work, rust perforated frame tubes, and all the rest. It is at this point little more than a guide for all the new parts that will have to be fabricated. I can't see much other than the standard Morris parts that can be reused .

 

Greg

Edited February 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

1912.......if you were there with a truck and trailer and cash........and he didn’t take you offer,  almost any offer, they are beyond reason. Hold out for more what? The market for that car is NON EXISTENT...........any offer should be accepted.

Edited February 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I agree completely. My original one is actually better in several ways than this one, and it was given to me free. The main attraction to this one is the known history and this body is actually better than mine. Almost all of them used one of the aftermarket bodies that were popular with home builders at the time. This body { Microplas Minstral } was popular and frequently used on Bucklers.

But even it is really only useful as a buck to take a mold off of.

My plan B for my existing car is to build an alloy body like a few of the Canadian ones had. The one below is the same chassis but a owner fabricated alloy body.  They were amatuer level club racers  not show cars. The important stull was under the skin.

Edited February 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JamesR]

14 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

But the owner ; a daughter  who inherited it a few years ago is convinced it is worth a substantial sum. Very disappointing., on a number of levels.

 

Greg in Canada

 

When I had a music store, I referred to this tendency as "Antiques Roadshow syndrome." I haven't watched conventional TV in probably a dozen years, so I have no idea if that show is on anymore, but it'll probably have an impact for years to come. Perusing eBay is a great way to waste time for me, and it's my perception that most classic (not Classic) cars are overvalued by 50% or more, at least in terms of asking prices.

 

The comparison with more recent vehicles is dramatic: There are a bunch of nice looking 15 or 20 year old Mercedes and Jaguars selling for 6 to 7K...but trailer park quality sixties era 4-door Impalas with mag wheels are worth 8k+ ????

I don't think so!!!

Edited February 1, 2020 by JamesR (see edit history)

[keithb7]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

Excellent advice

 

While I totally agree- also remember, we aren't here forever. Many of us are older. How long are you gonna live? Cant take any of it with you!

 

I tend to forget the age factor. I'm 48 and I will wait out like the devil to get what I want for the price I'm willing to pay. If it sells I tell myself it was not meant to be. Or depending what it is, there could be another one turn up somewhere. A rare race car here in this example? Likely not. Parts for my mass produced vintage Mopar sedans? Yes very likely. That's my perspective because I have old 4 door sedans that the factory spit out by the boatloads, weekly. So I can understand the waiting game is limited for many.

Edited February 1, 2020 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Why do I the reader have to do the Google search to see what this Holy Grail looks like?  Sorry I have no interest in the problem. Bob 

 

Hi Bob, that one has a De Joux body , made in New Zealand . They are considered one of the nicer looking and well constructed body's of the era. Seldomly seen outside of New Zealand.

Buckler / De joux's still are very popular in New Zealand historic racing . About 25 chassis kits were sold there plus an unknown number of locally built replicas. But they are a different

model frame and look a lot different under the skin. Buckler built nearly 20 different models of frames plus a few complete cars. The frames were tailored to the specific area of motorsport

the buyer / builder was interested in. Plus some intended for street use. About 600 cars / frame kits in total. Huge variety of finished appearances , body styles.

Greg

Edited February 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[plymouthcranbrook]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

MD, have often wondered the same thing and can only guess a son in law gets the tools, because nobody wants to pay.

One thing to think about is the possibility that even if someone gets out of the car market he may still want to keep his tools "Just in case" 

Edited February 1, 2020 by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

1912.......if you were there with a truck and trailer and cash........and he didn’t take you offer,  almost any offer, they are beyond reason. Hold out for more what? The market for that car is NON EXISTENT...........any offer should be accepted.

 

 

Sure isn't a Lotus 11. Bob 

[maok]

Seller  AND BUYERS with unrealistic expectation.

[1912Staver]

On 2/1/2020 at 1:43 PM, 1937hd45 said:

 

 

Sure isn't a Lotus 11. Bob 

 

Definitely not. However in some regards not that much different either.  And it is enough bigger that I actually can get comfortable in one. Just shy of 6'2" so 11's don't work for me even if I could somehow afford one. Several 11's  ended up in as poor a condition as this Buckler, but due to their value have been restored.

This car had a Climax FWA installed at one point but was designed for and originally built with a MG "T" series engine as was my car. Some of the later examples had mounts for MGA engines. I will use a MGA in mine.

Greg

Edited February 4, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I would argue that there's no such thing as a seller with realistic expectations. 

 

There is also no such thing as a buyer with realistic expectations.

it is not until everyone is equally unhappy that a deal is reached. 

[padgett]

"no such thing as a seller with realistic expectations."  Does it count if I gave some cars away ?

[BucketofBolts]

I see a big trend that the Estates usually sell off classic vehicles for a price that is far less than the previous owner would ever agree to sell. Estates are about liquidation and have no sentimental value placed on a car. Grandpa may have 4,000 hours of his life invested in his car but  Grandpa and his Estate once Grandpa is deceased will not get anything more than the FMV for the vehicle regardless of the hours spent finding that rare part and repairing items to be placed on the vehicle.   I have never made money in the old car hobby.Yet, I purchased my cars for the enjoyment of having some historical vehicle that looks like a rolling piece of art, and that can tinker with and enjoy. I just hope that my heirs will get a fair price before the next caretaker gets his or her hands on them.

 

Now, if the car of your desire is so rare that you will also be in the short line to meet your maker when the car comes up for sale at a good price then be warned that the future day the car comes up for sale with the price you desire , then that eventful day may be a day when you are too old to enjoy the car. If you can afford to purchase and it brings you joy now (while you are still able to enjoy the car) and you can enjoy the car until Alzheimer's kicks in then go out and spend the money. Be sure before you buy to get your spouse's permission however.  

[Bhigdog]

There's an ass for every seat. Finding it is the trick..................Bob

[Matt Harwood]

31 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

There's an ass for every seat. Finding it is the trick..................Bob

 

Everybody says that, but what if the seller's ass is the only ass for that seat? Hot rods suffer this fate more than almost anything else since they're so individualized. Guys build them their own way and then nobody else wants the car. If there's only one ass for such a seat, well, that seller is going to be out of luck.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Rare isn't always valuable. That's why I am attracted to Bucklers. An interesting car without all the lather of value that surrounds some of its contempory's.  Bucklers don't have any identifying number stamps or vehicle I.D. plates. So the market place lumps them in with kit cars and homebuilt's. Which in a manner of speaking they are. But they were also well built and a well engineered

starting point for would be builders. Much the same as Devin's, just from an English point of view.

I bought all the suspension from a Elva of about the same era a while back. Also an estate sale. Elva's have become quite valuable but the early ones are actually quite crude compared to what Buckler was building. I made enquiries with the Elva register if they knew if any cars that used that particular suspension set up were missing / unaccounted for. Really just so that I would have 

an idea of weather or not I should keep looking for any more of the car which might have survived. They wont even tell me if any are unaccounted for as they are scared people will start building cars out of thin air like has happened with early Lotus cars.

I am interested in these cars because I like them; and they fit my budget, not because I am working toward a big pay day.

 

Greg

Edited February 1, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Greg......the only important thing about a car is that the owner likes it..........to hell with all the other people’s opinions.

[alsancle]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Greg......the only important thing about a car is that the owner likes it..........to hell with all the other people’s opinions.

I want you to remember these words next month when I write that check.

Edited February 2, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I want you remember these words next month when I write that check.

But the guy fixing it has to like it also......or it costs more.........just saying.

[zipdang]

23 hours ago, padgett said:

"no such thing as a seller with realistic expectations."  Does it count if I gave some cars away ?

 

Not really selling them then are you? PM me if you decide to give anything away. I'll resell them for $30 dollars each and go out to McDonald's afterwards. (as long as they can be delivered for 8 cents a mile.)

[zepher]

On 2/1/2020 at 3:33 PM, 1912Staver said:

Rare isn't always valuable.

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

Rickenbackers are a perfect example of this.

The car has great historical significance and even with fewer than 40 examples known to exist, a really nice Ford Model A will often bring more money.

 

[padgett]

There is a reason they call this part of the world "God's waiting room".

[C Carl]

88 thousand bucks, you say ? Fer a 1927 mid level 4 door see-dan? Zat where d'market's at deese days, izzit  ? PLEASE don't nobody offer me dat kinda money fer my 1927 Cadillac fo' do'. It is in better shape den dis'n, and looks it too. 'Bout same miles. I love my '27 Cad, 'till death do we part. But dat  much dough will force me to break my vows, and live on wit a broken heart.  😢.   -   CC 

[plymouthcranbrook]

On 2/1/2020 at 4:58 PM, padgett said:

"no such thing as a seller with realistic expectations."  Does it count if I gave some cars away ?

I would say it depends on your expectations.  If you expect nothing for them, you are not unrealistic.

[Larry Schramm]

A few years ago I had a couple of Corvair station wagons.  They were parts cars. They both had a lot of good parts including rare tinted glass in one of them. 

 

I listed them for sale with the Corvair club and on eBay  and the best offer that I could get for them was $100.00 each. The scrap value was $250.00 each across the scale.  They went across the scale.  If I could not get at least scrap price for them, then the parts must not be that valuable.

 

End of stuff sitting around.  Just simplifying my life with less stuff.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

I have offered Flint, Moon, and Dodge Brothers front axels, hubs, drums and steering parts at $25 or offer, and not a peep.

[Summershandy]

Some comments remind me of a used Class B camper van I bought two summers ago. They are very sought after and their prices are ridiculous. I spent 2 years before that researching and pricing on them, never knowing if I'd ever find or even own one. I looked a few pieces of sh** over the years and carried on. Until that one day I found one locally. Bought it on the spot. In great shape and I could easily double my money spent, but now's the time to enjoy it. Patience can really pay off sometimes..... 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Summershandy (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

16 hours ago, Summershandy said:

Some comments remind me of a used Class B camper van I bought two summers ago. They are very sought after and their prices are ridiculous. I spent 2 years before that researching and pricing on them, never knowing if I'd ever find or even own one. I looked a few pieces of sh** over the years and carried on. Until that one day I found one locally. Bought it on the spot. In great shape and I could easily double my money spent, but now's the time to enjoy it. Patience can really pay off sometimes..... 

Yes the B class vans are getting more popular. Why? Because they are easy to drive, park, and cheaper to run. As we get older I see quite a few big motorhomes parked and for sale. I've had 3 B's. Still enjoy using them.

[Ed Luddy]

But now back to the original topic. I just wasted a 3 hour trip looking at a 1964 Pontiac convertible that was described as very solid, numbers matching, good running. 

It was none of the 3. Priced far too high to even consider. Owner was rather sketchy about details, pretty sure he just got it and was doing a flip, but had a different story than that.

He asked me what I thought it was worth. I replied about half of asking, but that wasn't an offer. Reality is it was a parts car worth far less than half, but at that point I just wanted to leave without an argument.

 Went home and informed the local Pontiac club leader about the condition so he could tell his guys.

[Restorer32]

Are there some cars that never deteriorate to parts car status if virtually complete?  For instance is there any such thing as an early 1930s Cadillac Roadster "parts car" ?  How bad would it need to be before it was declared "parts only" assuming it was a basically complete car?

[1912Staver]

There are many cars that even if a shell are still going to be restored as long as they still have their I.D. plates and stamped numbers. Any Shelby Mustang for example. All necessary parts are  available for restoration of the worst possible example, buy a decent regular mustang for the first 75% of what's needed and buy 

reproduction parts for everything else. A C.O.P.O. 1969 Camaro would be another one , and so on in the muscle car era. 

Pre war I am sure very few C.C.C.A. roadsters would ever become parts car's although Ed may be in a position to tell us differently. And Pre war Bugatti's and Alfa's get reborn seemingly from a serial plate and dust.

Same with later 1950's early 1960's racing Sports cars like Lotus 11's and 23's. A few crumpled bits of frame tubing , a serial tag , and scraps of ownership history invariably equals a ready to run car in 4 or 5 years.

 

 

Greg in Canada

[padgett]

I had a class A that was easy to park and had a BMW engine & five speed manual trans. 27-30 MPG.

Now AACA eligible.

 

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

I just wasted a 3 hour trip looking

I can't recall ever wasting time to go look at an old car. Not only is the trip a great adrenaline rush, but there is also the chance of something else being there. And there is always an opportunity to stop in a good restaurant on the way back.

 

In my case I know how much money I have to spend. I don't go to look at cars costing significantly more, or call on cars without prices or hidden reserves. If I want a car I will ask if there is room on the price or offer all I have available. If I offer all I have and that is the limit I can't do any better. Professional car salesmen get it.

 

The best cars I have owned are the ones that others have told me I paid too much for. The impulse buys that were a bargain were usually sold fairly quick. I have come out pretty good on those because the buyer was a bargain hunter.

 

Expectations, people ask me if my '60 Electra is for sale, sure, I know what is is, what it will do, and what I have done to it.Take it to the corner, top off the tank, and go anywhere, $23,000 while I'm here. My wife has a spreadsheet that lists it at $7,000 if I drop dead. Unrealistic? When you figure the enjoyment I got from owning the car I could give it to my nephew and walk away with no regrets.

 

It's a hobby. Just randomly Google "obituaries Brockport Bernie" a couple other cars and some tools are on my wife's spreadsheet.

 

Bernie

[Ozstatman]

14 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

There are many cars that even if a shell are still going to be restored........Greg in Canada

And old English "Sports" Cars. Back in 2008 came across a very rusty cut up chassis, with front and rear axles and engine for a '21 Vauxhall. The  engine and parts were found on a farm near the Murray River about 300+ miles south of Sydney. The engine had been used to power a pump and the rear part of the frame was used as a farm trailer, but no body panels or fenders remained. The parts were going to be shipped to England for a very demanding restoration. Pic's of the engine attached.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Yes indeed !  Type E and OE Vauxhalls along with any pre RR Bentleys can be and are restored from the most fragmentary remains.. Vauxhalls have a definite resonance with me. Way back when my wife and I had just purchased our first house a Vauxhall project came on the 

local market. Said to be a OE 30 - 98  , although I must admit at the time I didn't know enough about them to tell a 30 - 98 from a 23 - 60. The OE part was obvious enough. With a substantial mortgage just undertaken the Vauxhall was of course impossible. The project was 

sold back to England and within a few years returned to drivable condition. 

 Vauxhall encounter #2 was a few years ago. A local vintage car guru was selling a Vauxhall  OE 23 - 60 on behalf of a local owner { car came from Australia as an inheritance } . It had been restored a couple of decades previously in the style of a 30 - 98 , with a shortened WB to match .

It was still in very nice condition however the engine needed fairly major attention. Once again finances were a obstacle I could not overcome. The price was actually very reasonable , but still enough that I could not manage it. As is usually the case it too was sold back to the U.K.

I doubt I will ever get a third chance.

A few photo's of the second one. It was for sale here on the forum in I think 2016.  As you can probably tell it still haunts me.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited February 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)