Matt Harwood

The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III

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13 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

OK, last Evapo-Rust related post for now:

 

 

Nice Marmon hanging around back there !

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On 2/5/2020 at 2:51 PM, Matt Harwood said:

So even if Evpo-Rust is getting into the cylinders or crankcase, it won't do any harm and we'll get it all out before we fire the engine the first time. No worries!

Correct in this case for all those reading 

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After you have done the detergent, I think I'd run a strong solution of distilled water and water soluble oil through the system, hopefully to prevent any rust being generated before you are able to fill the system. Fortunately, cast iron is naturally rust resistant...it does not rust nearly as quickly or as deeply as steel. The main reason we have these problems is that the system is wet all the time so something to inhibit rust is always a good idea.

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I think I see a block de-rusting kit with the Harwood name on it in the future...

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On 2/6/2020 at 7:01 PM, alsancle said:

The Evapo-Rust is a miracle cure.   

 

 

Matt......please post some photos of the internals after you rinse it out..........to be honest, when I have run evapo  rust in my cars for several months, after draining, I just flush with water and then add antifreeze. 

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22 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Nice Marmon hanging around back there !

 

Good eye! 1930 Marmon Model 79--one of two sport phaetons known to exist. It'll be available soon. We've been rehabbing that one as well since it's been sitting for about four years. It's getting a fresh gas tank and then it'll be good to go.

 

1930Marmon1.thumb.jpg.8daf456d3e8e8db297f3c41ded750669.jpg

 

 

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Drained the Evapo-Rust, flushed it with clean water, and it's now running a mild degreaser solution through the system (with heat). I'll let that run until tomorrow then drain it and use compressed air to dry it out. Quite a bit of trash in the bottom of the Evapo-Rust bucket (remember that this was the second bucket I used) which surprised me, but there it is. With the degreaser running through it now, I see little chunks of debris floating through the clear tubing so there's still trash in there that needs to come out. Of course, I'll install some kind of filter on the upper radiator hoses once the car is reassembled and run it that way for a season just to be sure all the junk is gone. Once it's clean, rinsed, and dry, I'll pull the heads and get some photos of what it looks like inside. I hope I'm not disappointed with the results, which is my usual state with old cars...

 

20200210_102634.thumb.jpg.96b5750a0df5e4157815b4f5d01fb4af.jpg  20200210_102644.thumb.jpg.7badd71df33c85b3f01fe4b28beca0c1.jpg

Flushing with clear water and then using a mild detergent (Dawn dishwashing liquid) to clean it out.

 

20200210_104547.thumb.jpg.d2bb68096a3864ad719ba89aab8f89fc.jpg

Leftover trash in the bottom of the Evapo-Rust bucket. It's not
insignificant and suggests that the cleaning system did a lot of
work even after I thought I'd gotten all the big stuff out.

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I did it 3 times with my car.  Each time there was less crud,  but stuff was till coming out.  I ran the motor a couple of hours each time.  It made a  big difference in the operating temperature.   I went from being able to run the engine for 20-30 minutes before it would get very hot to the point of blowing over when you turned it off,  to where it stopped blowing over and was running 10 - 15 degrees cooler.

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)

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Matt, when I tore down the original flathead V8 in my 51 Ford F1, my research revealed the necessity to spend as much time as possible poking, prodding, scraping, and power flushing the water jackets, as flatheads are notorious for large quantities of sand, casting wire, and other debris packed at the back end of the water jackets. No pictures, but I removed about 2 coffee cups of debris with about 4 hours of work. I used stiff wire, long screwdrivers, home made scrapers, a piece of steel cable that I unwound the end of and used in a drill, and my power washer, along with lots of compressed air. This was to the bare block before it went to the rebuild shop, where they did a shake and bake on it before any other work.

 

I didn't think to use the evaporust on it, although I doubt it would have come much cleaner.

 

The engine runs extremely well and stays well within the correct temp range.

 

Of course, I don't know if this applies to your situation, so take it for whatever it is worth to you.

 

John

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3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Good eye! 1930 Marmon Model 79--one of two sport phaetons known to exist. It'll be available soon. We've been rehabbing that one as well since it's been sitting for about four years. It's getting a fresh gas tank and then it'll be good to go.

 

1930Marmon1.thumb.jpg.8daf456d3e8e8db297f3c41ded750669.jpg

 

 

It would be hard to see that one leave.  Beautiful car.

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21 minutes ago, ericmac said:

It would be hard to see that one leave.  Beautiful car.

 

Oddly enough not a Full Classic, although I think it's much prettier than the Sixteen.

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Would it be possible to flip that behemoth engine upside down during the rinse to get anything that has settled to the bottom out?  Or maybe even on it side, then the other side?  Great job and glad to see the progress. 

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1 hour ago, dalef62 said:

Would it be possible to flip that behemoth engine upside down during the rinse to get anything that has settled to the bottom out?  Or maybe even on it side, then the other side?  Great job and glad to see the progress. 

 

That's actually a really good idea. I think once I pull the heads this weekend, I'll hook up the water hose to the fittings on each side and blast it out one more time and just let it flow out the top. Great idea, thanks for the tip!

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If the junk in the bottom of the pail is magnetic then as they say when having the "OLD 96er" ........."YOU AIN'T FINISHED YET!" ...(John Candy YouTube).........You should place a magnet in the hose where you have the filter/screen. Personally I can't stand to see a screen/filter in line, and never use them. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Matt,

   I took my Graham 8 down as far as I could cleaning the inside of the engine water passages.  It was spotless when I was done, had the radiator done, should have been good to go.  For fun I put an inexpensive water filter in the heater hose $20 at the home improvement store (clear plastic should be good to 230F), bought a clear one and started driving, I adapted to 5/8" heater hose barbs to the filter.  In about 20 miles the filter was plugged with junk (looked like sand), put in a new 5 micron filter and drove it again, filled it up about a 1/4 full I ran it for about 150 miles before removing it.  The car runs about 20% cooler now, and I thought the engine was clean.  My guess is the heat cycles loosen up more particles.  I wired it up the radiator support rod.  The entire time the antifreeze looked perfectly clean.  It has been running cool ever since.

 

   Beautiful Lincoln!

image.png.9d94c159aa01c265870c28b5e9472dbe.png

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16 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Good eye! 1930 Marmon Model 79--one of two sport phaetons known to exist. It'll be available soon. We've been rehabbing that one as well since it's been sitting for about four years. It's getting a fresh gas tank and then it'll be good to go.

 

1930Marmon1.thumb.jpg.8daf456d3e8e8db297f3c41ded750669.jpg

 

 

Lovely car !

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Matt, I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to say how happy I am to see that you're back on this project!  I was reading a post in your Limited thread, and there was a reference to "the Lincoln."  I thought, "Wait, what?  The car that shall not be named?" 😄 Glad to see that it can again be mentioned, and I hope it stays that way!

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Glad to see your back at it on this one Matt.  I think its a grear looking car, and once back together you should expect a lot of compliments on the road.

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I'm troubled that my Evapo-Rust experiment was inconclusive. I pulled the heads today and had a look around inside and to be honest, it doesn't look much better than it did when I started. 

 

2-15-20-3.thumb.jpg.b93b946060ccc118aca60d8aa9c07f58.jpg

 

2-15-20-2.thumb.jpg.021f9ab0f866b5f7aa461047df4514d7.jpg  2-15-20-1.thumb.jpg.425c06c3ecbc5862510e31e0fc7b3b19.jpg
Pulled the heads and had a look inside, but it's not much better than before. 
Above is how it looks today. Below is how it looked before I started:

 

1559002035_2020-01-1812_22_10.thumb.jpg.d56c8fa4eb3ad8859bbcab968417f44e.jpg
This is before. Not notably different.

 

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What's worse is that while I was blowing it out with compressed air,
A LOT of debris came out. Maybe a total of five times this much
when I was all done with both blocks.

 

So I spent more than a month soaking it continuously in more than $200 worth of Evapo-Rust but not much happened. Should I be worried? Should I try again? Should I simply fill up the block and let it soak for a few weeks without circulation? Or is that clean enough? Does it even matter? I don't know. This is par for the course whenever I tackle projects, which is why I always worry that even the easy stuff will end up stabbing me in the back. Nothing is ever simple.

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Matt,

 

I am going to go out on a limb on this one. Looking at the after photos I am inclined to say it looks like lime and mineral scale that remains.

If that's the case Evapo Rust won't be effective on it. There are solutions used to reduce or prevent lime and mineral scale in boilers.

Might be worth a try. We use a highly caustic water treatment for the boiler of the steam Lombard at the museum.

 

I would expect some sediment to remain even with excellent circulation like you have. Its sort of like how placer gold is deposited

in a river bottom. As the sediment laden current flows over obstructions or around corners there is a reduction in the flow rate

and the heavier material drops out.

 

It also might be good enough especially with the new radiator.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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I think you will get better results with the block full and the engine running when you get it up and going.  I think the heat and cool cycles help,  but it's the soaking that really seems to work.  So with the system up and going everything will be submersed as the air is worked out and when not running it will actually be working better as it's stagnant.  The only way to really test that otherwise would be to set up two small tubs and circulate the evaporust in one and let it sit in the other.   Hang in there.  You will get it done and be happy in the end.

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I’m quite sure it’s better than before..........and, if it were my car, I would fill it with evapo rust on start up and run it for the summer.......one last treatment. It looks like it’s clean, and my car after running it for a few months going down the road looked a a shot blasted casting out of the foundry. I called your shop on Monday.....found out you are not open. Will give you a buzz later this week with a few other ideas...........Ed

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I would be tempted to scrape it using whatever tools you can find that fit through the holes.  I am also wondering if the movement of the fluid through has some sort of aeration  factor. that slows down the process.  

 

I have used evapo-rust for the fun of it and my impression is that if something has some scale rust, then I am doing a second 24 hour day matched to often a third; and unless I do a little grinding or at least wire brushing between days then it pretty much does not attack 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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I'm with Ed on running it hot for some time with the evaporust.   Also,  I would not be disheartened,  especially if you pulled a lot of crap out the of the block.  I wouldn't expect it to look like a new casting, and you should feel you have made progress.

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14 hours ago, edinmass said:

I’m quite sure it’s better than before..........and, if it were my car, I would fill it with evapo rust on start up and run it for the summer.......one last treatment. It looks like it’s clean, and my car after running it for a few months going down the road looked a a shot blasted casting out of the foundry. I called your shop on Monday.....found out you are not open. Will give you a buzz later this week with a few other ideas...........Ed

 

We're actually there on Mondays but we don't advertise it. That cuts down on the walk-ins while we're digging out of the weekend--I'll have maybe 80 E-mails and 10 or 15 voicemails to return by Monday morning. So if you call and nobody answers, that just means the three of us who answer the phones are on another call. Leave a message and I'll always call back. No worries.

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