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The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)


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Thoughts.........

 

Oil pressure issue needs to be resolved. Bypass or full flow oil filter? Is there a restricted orifice if it’s bypassed? Instant low pressure issue if not correct at idle. 
 

Temperature issue........should not be happening. Check timing, vacuum leaks, and lower hose collapse from too much suction on the pump. Also look at differential from top to bottom of radiator. I lost an engine recently with a radiator core that was new but only flowed 30 percent of factory. New core does NOT mean it’s right.


A five gas machine is great when tuning if you can borrow one. 

 

I understand the time issue.....doesn’t let it push you in a corner. Lots of fantastic progress so far. Some thing are impossible to accomplish on a tight deadline......doing Pebble restorations makes you miserable.......been there and done that. Experienced collectors all have missed target dates, and as time goes on, outside suppliers make everything ten times harder.

 

Most importantly it’s not in the car so everything is ten times easier to deal with now.........pat yourself on the back for doing it right.....even if you miss the deadline.........it’s all easy from here on out.

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13 hours ago, MCHinson said:

In addition to the carb is it possible that the timing is off, causing it to run hotter than it should?

 

On the oil pressure, I would not worry about it too much. Since you have good oil pressure at higher rpms and no unusual noises, it sounds like the oil pressure at lower rpms is ok, no matter what the gauge is trying to tell you. 

 

 If it is the same gauge, would not both readings be accurate?  You mentioned a pressure relief valve? Perhaps opening at normal [ high ] pressure and not closing properly?

 

  Ben

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Matt - I am rather late to this thread, and don't really want to read 17 pages of posts. ;)

 

You mentioned running hot, and the carb needing choke.

 

My guess would be you will find your issues in other than the carb, but two things come to mind concerning the carb:

 

(1) Lincoln used a number of different Stromberg type EE-22 carbs. The earlier ones had internal venturii of 1 3/32 inches. The later ones including yours would have come with venturii of 1 3/16 inches. The fraction size is cast on either one side of the bowl, or the end of the bowl. For decades, less than honest (or possibly knowledgeable) individuals have sold these old carburetors by type rather than application. If the owner's manual said Stromberg EE-22, then obviously ANY EE-22 would be correct.

 

(2) For some time, a "2-ball" aftermarket fuel valve was popular. Will comment ONLY that we sold a lot of rebuilding kits to folks to replace these things as they would not allow sufficient fuel flow for the larger engines. If fuel flow is insufficient, then the fuel bowl level would be low, and choke would be required.

 

Jon

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Instant overheating?  Consider the presence of an air lock in the system.  A common problem in nailheads solved by drilling a 1/8" hole in the flange of the thermostat.  Another way do it is to pull a vacuum on the system and use that to pull coolant in.

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43 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Instant overheating?  Consider the presence of an air lock in the system.  A common problem in nailheads solved by drilling a 1/8" hole in the flange of the thermostat.  Another way do it is to pull a vacuum on the system and use that to pull coolant in.

Another check would be to compare how much coolant is in the car compared to the capacity of the system.  If the crankcase needed upwards of 3 gallons of oil, I'm guessing the cooling system would need every bit of 4-5 gallons of coolant.

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Posted (edited)

This is my Lincoln:

 

QxWA.gif

 

It just doesn't want to be fixed. It seems to prefer being inert.

 

I spent the day trying to get it to run long enough to do some real tuning and troubleshooting yet it resolutely refused to cooperate. 

 

Task one was to replace the upper radiator hose that ruptured yesterday, so I pulled it off and examined the Grimy filter--a little gunk in each one, but not much. That's good, I suppose.

 

Filter1.jpg.1b5d28bdef110230fae5f76701737ac7.jpg  Filter2.jpg.11fef87783df6f6053ea8bb3e2acf897.jpg

Grimy filters are doing their job.

 

The bad news is that my manifolds are ruined. Between the gas (more on that in a moment) and the spraying coolant, the high-temp paint I used has failed completely. I'll have to pull the manifolds again and have them refinished with some kind of high-temp ceramic like Jet-Hot. It won't be pretty, but it won't fall off, either. 

 

Ruined1.jpg.2b488b22fab504616429276280e90cdf.jpg
Between the coolant and the gasoline, my manifolds

are worse than they were before. Feh.

 

It also turns out that this car uses 1-3/8" upper radiator hoses. Anyone have those laying around? Plenty of 1-1/4 and 1-1/2, but 1-3/8 is like asking for a Whitworth crescent wrench. I drove all over town on a Saturday looking for replacements, eventually finding some at a shop that makes hydraulic hoses for heavy equipment. It was $50 a foot. I bought three feet, just to be safe. 

 

Hoses replaced, I refilled it with water. To answer @ericmac's theory, I'm pretty sure it's full. It holds 8 gallons of coolant and when I filled it, I poured almost 7.5 gallons in there. I'm using a 1-gallon overflow catch can and it overflowed a bit the last time it ran, so I figured it was down about a gallon. I also assume that I over-filled it a bit, so I added about 3/4 gallon. Hard to say when it's filled properly, since I can't see the core from the filler neck and don't know when it's full. A best guess.

 

I also bought a fairly powerful electric fan and secured it to the front of the radiator. It moves A LOT of air and can easily be felt moving through the core. A discussion with Matt Hinson led me to think about installing the engine-driven fan, but that's a last resort. This fan should keep it cool pretty easily.

 

Fan1.jpg.d334bdaf08a7948d0db2ece976133f3b.jpg
This fan, which I secured about an inch away from

the core should easily keep things cool.

 

Then I changed the oil, upgrading to some 15W40, that's considerably thicker than the 5W30 I was using. I need more oil pressure. 

 

With all that done, we fired it up again. And once again, temperatures skyrocketed almost instantly, coolant started puking out the overflow, and it stopped running. Oil pressure hovered around 15-20 PSI, going up to 30 PSI when I revved it above 1500 RPM but dropping to 0 PSI as RPM went towards idle. I'm not terribly encouraged by that.

 

So as we're sitting there watching it steam and hiss and bleed, I start brainstorming about next steps. I have a friend with a 5-gas analyzer and maybe it's running really lean. But until I can borrow that tool, I did the next best thing--pull the plugs. And they're a little black but mostly tan like they should be. The mixture is not too far off. I guess that's good, right? 

 

Plugs1.jpg.1a557fa996f7e65f89f363da3f9151de.jpg
Plugs actually look pretty good. One from each side.

 

Then Melanie reminds me that when we first got the car, it got really hot really fast. She asked how I solved that. "Well, I cleaned out the radiator, flushed the block, and... added restrictors!" The restrictors, while primitive, seemed to cure the car's temperature woes and were the suggestion of David Coco. It was the missing piece of that puzzle. "Why didn't you reinstall them on the engine?" she asked.

 

"Because I am an idiot," I replied.

 

Another trip to the store to buy some 3/4 to 1/2 galvanized black iron pipe reducing bushings and some 1/2" nipples, and voila! I had my restrictors.

 

20180713_120317.jpg.b91c52fab1091c145651bbef2d109285.jpg  20180713_120320.jpg.4cb1769e1bbbe389c4d8e19b696ce28e.jpg  20180711_163844.jpg.8bdf8c3f8878fd430cdf31a93a57487d.jpg
Are restrictors the missing piece of this puzzle? Again?

 

So I pulled the hoses off again, stuffed the restrictors in there, and buttoned it all back up. And just in case it was combustion gasses causing it to boil, I put a torque wrench on the cylinder heads. Almost every single nut turned another 90 degrees before clicking off at 55 ft-lb. Maybe that'll help and it certainly can't hurt.

 

Another gallon of coolant and it was ready to fire again. It fired up pretty easily, needing full throttle and lots of choke, but eventually it was humming along at about 1200 RPM without signs of trouble. Oil pressure wasn't great, but it wasn't 0. There was plenty of heat coming off the thing into my face, but the temperature gauge was staying at the bottom and not moving. One minute. Two minutes. Nothing. I tapped the temperature gauge to be sure it was still working. It started to creep up a little bit but...

 

...that's when I noticed that the carburetor was dumping fuel on the hot manifolds and shut it down. It was just spraying all over the place from the vent on top of the bowl. So that's broken, too. I sopped up the gas so it didn't catch on fire, and most of the paint from my manifolds came off with it, as well as some of the paint from the carburetor. 

 

We're not going to make the Lincoln Homecoming, that's definitely a no-go. The two things I didn't rebuild--the oil pump and the carburetor--are the two things that are now borked. I'm angry at the fact that I was actually holding the stupid oil pump in my hand and stupidly decided against rebuilding it at the time. The carburetor, of course, was freshly rebuilt right before the car came to me (or so I was told) so I figured it would be OK. I guess not. I don't know who rebuilds oil pumps and I don't trust myself to rebuild the carburetor properly--does anyone have any recommendations? 

 

I guess the next step is to pull the engine off the test stand and put it back on the work stand. I'll remove the oil pan and the oil pump and send it out to be rebuilt. I'll check the oil pressure regulator (which is, of course, inside the crankcase) and see if the spring has gotten soft. And I'll send the carburetor to someone who knows what they're doing. And as long as I'm tearing it all apart again, I may as well yank the manifolds and have them properly refinished.

 

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Matt: 

 We are all pulling for you to overcome the obstacles the engine is putting up. I do not know how many times I  had to leave the garage before my hand would go for a big hammer and "have at it" on my car.

 The first thing I did on my 1937 Buick when I pulled the pan and scoop out the sludge was to rebuild the oil pump. At the time (1988) I could still get new gears. It is nice after all these years to still have 45 lbs of pressure. You have commented about the journey with my 1925 Standard since you had personal experiences with one. That also has been a one step forward and 2 steps back situation. Take a break... cup of coffee...... or something stronger ......

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Matt, I'm reading this and thinking about the progress you have made.  So it turned out that there was more that needed to be done to this car than you realized -- the important thing is that you are finding out what else needs to be done and doing it.  Not making the Lincoln meet must be a disappointment, but I'm sure it's a relief at some level as well.  You've worked your butt off and deserve to take a break.  Then proceed at a more leisurely pace and before long, you will have achieved your goal of having a beautiful, reliable car.

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59 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

And just in case it was combustion gasses causing it to boil, I put a torque wrench on the cylinder heads. Almost every single nut turned another 90 degrees before clicking off at 55 ft-lb. Maybe that'll help and it certainly can't hurt.

Matt, my experience with reproduction head gaskets with some form of plastic replacing the asbestos is that we need to re-torque 4 or 5 or even 6 times.

 

Count your blessings:  aren't you glad to used the test stand?  Hang in there, the joy of driving this thing will be extra sweet!

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I would suggest that before you rebuild the carburetor, you install a fuel pressure regulator between the fuel pump and  the carburetor inlet. I had a similar issue with my 1937 Buick 80C, after I removed the modern electric pump and installed a rebuilt original fuel pump. It was dumping fuel out of the carburetor bowl vent onto the exhaust manifold until I dialed the fuel pressure down a bit from what the fuel pump was  putting out. I assume that back in the day they did not need them but apparently with modern fuel they do. 

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Matt - before throwing rocks at the carb, check the fuel pressure. That carb likes 2~3 psi, and does NOT like 4 psi. There was a vendor building fuel pumps and selling kits whose philosophy was "if the part fits, its the right part"! I have seen some of their pumps put out ridiculous pressures. Not going to light anyone up; fuel pressure is easy to test.

 

Fuel coming out the vent indicates bad float (I hope not), bad fuel valve, bad float adjustment, or too much fuel pressure. You might get lucky. At this stage, would say you are entitled to some good luck!

 

Jon

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Posted (edited)

Not sure what to do next. Here are some videos. The first shows a start and run with a fuel pressure gauge installed and it seems to be hovering around 3PSI. Still leaking and spraying.

 

I was cautiously optimistic watching the temperature gauge, which slowly climbed to 150 and seemed to stay there for a while, but then it blasted up to 220 and I shut it down. When it hit 200, I honestly expected it to magically cool off like it used to. No dice. The second video shows temperature readings all over the engine and cooling system and yep, it's scorching hot everywhere. It's cooking itself so I'm not going to run it anymore. If there's no oil pressure and it's getting that hot, I'm likely doing some serious damage.

 

 

 

I don't know what the next steps should be. Should I take it off the stand and take it apart again? It's not like it'll magically heal itself. The cooling system should not be this hot and the exhaust is off-the-charts hot. Ed mentioned to me that perhaps I have a bad head or the stitching has failed, but I had the heads checked and decked and there were never any indications of damage in the past. I suppose it could be a head gasket and I have a tester for that, so maybe I'll do that before I disassemble it.

 

No matter what I do, next time I put it back together, it's still going to overheat unless I figure out what's causing it. Too little oil and too much friction? Cracked block? Bad heads? Whatever it is, it will surely be massive and expensive because I've already done the cheap, easy stuff. Not sure I care anymore and I'm upside-down on this car by a factor of almost 100% at this point, having now burned through more than half of the money I got for selling my 1929 Cadillac with exactly nothing to show for it.

 

My hatred of this car is returning and this post is me doing something other than kicking the stand over and walking away for good. Why was I dumb enough to get my hopes up that this would work?

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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Hi Matt

I had the same oil pressure issue as you....  should have sent it out from the beginning...   whatever.

 

I bought a nice one from Dave Tachney and sent it right out to EGGE in California for the rebuild.  They did a great job and pretty quick turnaround.

 

When it returned, I installed it and sent the original one right out to EGGE so I now have a second rebuilt unit ready to go if needed.  

 

 

The other thing I did with my car is I drilled two holes in the thermostat housing so coolant slowly flows until the engine warms up to fully open the thermostat.  For what it's worth.

 

Good luck with everything.

 

Gary

 

 

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Regarding fuel pressure: If your carb is running over, the float is not sealing or shutting off. That can make it close to impossible to get a reading. I am assuming this is an engine driven mechanical diaphragm pump like on a more modern car. Is it?  Those only pump when fuel is flowing into the carb.

 

With the float valve shut the pump is dead headed, the diaphragm stays up, full of gas and with the tension of the diaphragm return spring, that is the spring that is literally under the diaphragm, not the one on the arm, against it. The diaphragm spring sets the fuel pressure by it's tension.

 

On a  normal car the pressure is going to flop all over the place when the pump is pumping, and you can't tell what is happening. When the pump catches up and the float valve shuts, and the gas is sitting there idle in the pump (more or less) with the diaphragm and spring against it, you should intermittently get a usable reading.

 

I don't think you will ever get to that spot where you get the reading because your float does not shut completely off. If it were me, I would deadhead the pump into that gauge (no carb connection) and crank the engine a little bit. You can probably get a useful reading.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Thanks, Bloo. Right now the carb is the least of my worries, however. The thing is just too damned hot.

 

I'm going to check ignition timing again. I set it to the mark on the flywheel but maybe advancing it some more will help. Could being retarded create this much excess heat?

 

I'll also add a lot more fuel to the mixture just to see if it cools things off. 

 

And the faulty oil pump may be key--the oil is the biggest source of cooling and if it's not getting to places where it needs to go, that could be a factor, right?

 

And next time I fill it with coolant, I'll jack up the front of the rig to hopefully purge any air bubbles (even though I don't believe I have any). 

 

I'm just throwing darts. I can't shut my brain off and walk away, which is a big part of why I get so angry. I have trouble redirecting myself. 

 

So there's that, which sucks.

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On 7/24/2021 at 4:12 PM, Matt Harwood said:

The two things I didn't rebuild--the oil pump and the carburetor

Matt, Don't let it beat you up.  I know it's easy for us to say that and we didn't put all the money and time that you have put into it.  You have had your hands all over that engine and the two things that are giving you trouble are the two things that weren't rebuilt.  I know it's hard to walk away from something that is not working as you expected after you put your heart and soul into it and it should just work.  Take a step back and have a breather for a minute and go back to it later.  It will still be there and getting mad and destroying it doesn't solve anything, but throwing away your hard earned money and time.  Your close, don't give up.  Were all rooting for you Matt. 

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Retarded timing will definitely cause hot running. There is more cylinder wall exposed while the fire is still burning, and it also puts more heat in the exhaust manifolds. If you think there is any possibility it is retarded, I would address that first. I doubt it's the oil pump.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Tried some theories with no success. Used the combustion testing liquid to determine that the head gaskets are OK and there's no combustion gas in the cooling system. We're just letting the carburetor spray all over the place. Who cares anymore, right? All the work I've done over the past 4 months is undone anyway--heads are stained and cloudy, manifolds and blocks are flaking, crankcase is stained and peeling. Such a waste of time, energy, and money.

 

Then at Ed's suggestion I disconnected the water pump to see if we could determine which side might be generating the heat. It simply boiled the water in the block in about a minute. Let it cool down and spent more than an hour reconnecting the rag joint on the water pump which was a total pain in the ass. It's flexed when it's installed and wedging it in there with the water pump connected to the generator was really a miserable job.

 

Once it was back together, I advanced the timing and added some fuel to eliminate those variables. Roman, my mechanic, thinks my $1800 radiator might not be flowing properly, so maybe we'll take it to the radiator shop to be tested.

 

Talked to AB-Buff about a few ideas, including the thought that there might be an air bubble in the water pump. At his suggestion, I drained the cooling system then disconnected the upper hoses and plugged the radiator inlets so that I could fill the radiator before the block and eliminate the bubble. Seven plus gallons through a small funnel with a hose leading into the radiator core. I heard it gurgling so I took that as a good sign.

 

Fired it up and, well, it went supernova in 2 minutes 43 seconds (I timed it). Just the physics of this problem are mind-boggling--it's taking 7.5 gallons of water from room temperature to 220 degrees in a little over two and a half minutes. That's like nuclear reactor hot. The exhaust pipe gets so hot that the block of wood it's sitting on started to smolder. In less than THREE goddamned minutes!  That kind of energy transfer is insane. I don't think I could boil that much water that quickly by setting the gasoline on fire underneath it. 

 

Where the hell is all this heat coming from? This engine doesn't make enough compression to generate that kind of heat, yet there's no disputing the evidence. It's starting to burn the paint off the cylinder blocks, never mind the manifolds. You can see the boiling brownish water literally SHOOTING out of the black overflow can:

 

1404562928_2021-07-2619_20_53.jpg.7af8e0b2f0f33b058f2070e355ad4578.jpg
I dumped water on the exhaust because that block

at the bottom of the photo was starting to smolder.

 

Doesn't matter, I guess. Oil pressure is lower every time I fire it so if I haven't damaged it yet, I will if I keep trying. Does it even matter? Do I even care anymore? Can't tell. 

 

The irony of this situation isn't lost on me. I've come full circle and am right back where I started with this broken car making me absolutely miserable. I no longer believe I am the person who can fix this car. Is it finally time to cut my losses? This particular hole doesn't seem to have a bottom.

 

Oh, and the A/C in that piece of crap Buick Tour-X has stopped working. That was a great ride home after sweating over a hot engine for a few hours. Thanks, GM.

 

So, yeah.

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Matt,  I am terribly sorry that this is the direction of this project.  
 

 

what about making a low ball offer on this:
 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Lincoln-V-12-Engine-Running-Driving-Previously-Rebuilt-Condition-/363292696580?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

 


swap the engines and then part out yours to try and recoup some costs. You have a running car that you can keep or sell. 
 

just a thought.  

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Matt, I feel your pain. That story right now is not funny. You are writing that you have difficulties to understand that in such short time the water is getting so hot, me too. I'm wondering if the whole quantity of 7.5 gallons (more than 25 liters!) is getting hot or just what is around the engine blocks? Did you measure the temperature at various spots with an infrared thermometer? I'm wondering if the water pump is really doing his job. A defective thermostat may do the same by not letting the water circulate.

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Roger thought the same thing I am...I'm not sure how the water pump is set up inside, but could it be possible that the impeller is sheared, or something is amiss inside?  Is there a way to plumb an inline electric pump in?

 

I wish I could be there to help out.  I'm sure most of us do, as we sit here and read of your situation. 

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Long shot here, but is it possible a head gasket isn't correct, and blocking a passage?

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It's a big engine, if the oil pressure is low it's going to make lots of friction and make lots of heat.  You have combustion heat and friction heat and that will heat the coolant quickly.  The engine takes lots of oil so you would assume that the pressure needs to be higher to push all that oil through out the engine.  Like trying to fight a forest fire with a garden hose.  Just my opinion.  I know all of us would like to see you get it straightened out.  

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Don't you have clear hoses to the top tank of the radiator?  Can you see if a sufficient volume of water is actually being pushed into the top tank and circulating?

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There are a number of 1 in a thousand sorts of issues that could be the problem.   The wrong head gasket isn't a bad guess.   I've heard of stupid things too,  like a water pump impeller being backwards or being turned the wrong way - I have no idea how you can do that.  

 

I like the idea of using a heat gun to see what is getting hot.   

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Definitely a puzzle. And I am no expert.

 

I am wondering how the exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe can get that hot that fast. Seems like there is combustion happening in there. There have been others speculating on ignition timing which seems a good guess. But I am also wondering about valve timing. Is there a way on that engine to check the valve timing without ripping everything apart?

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2 hours ago, Smartin said:

Long shot here, but is it possible a head gasket isn't correct, and blocking a passage?

 

Head gaskets are symmetrical. Not possible to install them wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

Don't you have clear hoses to the top tank of the radiator?  Can you see if a sufficient volume of water is actually being pushed into the top tank and circulating?

 

Clear hoses melted from the heat and were no longer transparent. Replaced with hydraulic hoses @ $50/foot. A large amount of coolant shoots out of the radiator neck if I gently rev the engine with the cap off. Water pump is definitely moving water.

 

53 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I like the idea of using a heat gun to see what is getting hot.   

 

EVERYTHING is hot. Everywhere. Manifolds are so hot the heat gun can't even get a reading. Everything in the cooling system is 200+, from the blocks to the hoses to the radiator to the core at almost every point. Check it out:

 

2 minutes ago, ply33 said:

Definitely a puzzle. And I am no expert.

 

I am wondering how the exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe can get that hot that fast. Seems like there is combustion happening in there. There have been others speculating on ignition timing which seems a good guess. But I am also wondering about valve timing. Is there a way on that engine to check the valve timing without ripping everything apart?


I had a thought that while I was dicking around with the timing chain and tensioner that it somehow jumped a tooth. No way to know without tearing it apart and resetting everything. Would it run as well as it does (heat notwithstanding) if it was off a tooth? Using the 2-minute windows I've had, I have the thing tuned and running rather well and idling smoothly (albeit without any oil pressure) at 400 RPM. It isn't acting like valve timing is way off, but who can tell? I suspect I've done some rather substantial damage to it at this point, between the heat and the low oil pressure. Who would ever trust this engine or this car again, even if I do get it running?

 

Certainly not I.

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Off the wall but is it posdible with all the cooling system work you somehow inadvertantly plugged up the flow?  Rogue tool or part in a key passage way?  The only thing that seems to say timing though, is speed at which you are getting everything so hot.  You could almost run without coolant, all things normal otherwise and not heat uo a cold engine that fast.

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1 hour ago, Grimy said:

Don't you have clear hoses to the top tank of the radiator?  Can you see if a sufficient volume of water is actually being pushed into the top tank and circulating?

 

I'd put new clear ones back on, to closely look if there are any bubbles as soon as it starts up (to know for sure if it has any combustion leaks).   I would first remove thermostat and restrictors so you can have time to watch in those clear pipes as soon as it starts from room temps.  (I know you used some chemical that is supposed to show exhaust, but why assume anything at this point of severe frustration).

 

I went back 2 pages.  Your first test start; the motor sounds very labored, perhaps timing way,way too retarded.  When fighting a nightmare like this, I'd set timing by ear alone, forget timing marks and vacuum gauge timing for now. It's fairly obvious on a typical engine to know when the timing is close enough, as far as idle quality and being able to increase rpm's easily and very smoothly.

 

I recall something earlier about this engine not spinning fast enough with the starter (and also now talking about failing oil pressure).. one more "free thing" to test:  Get motor to 180 temp, then shut it off; remove all plugs and turn motor by hand to prove to yourself that it is not too tight.  (such as if the bearings are seizing up, which would cause laboring and heating)

 

One more thing biting at your tail at one point is that the engine needs half choke even when warmed up.  That might, or might not be a severely leaned-out carb issue, so I'd not assume anything right now in this cluster-f.   Needing half choke could be many things and you need to get it to run perfect at all rpm's without choke, and be able to idle perfect, before condemning the entire engine.  Besides a major carb issue, It could be timing, or major vacuum leak, ignition system issues, or...?  ( I would think that if it had a severe enough vacuum leak to cause massive overheating, then the motor would be very difficult/impossible to keep running at lower rpm's)

 

Back to carb potential issues; if the main jetting was partly plugged, it still should be able to idle perfectly unless the idle circuits are also plugged.  If the main jetting was OK, but idle circuits are plugged, you'd be forced to fight it to keep running at lowest rpm, but it should run fine at road rpm's if the main jets are Ok.

 

Edit before submit, Matt has just replied on idle quality, so some of my words above are not applicable.

4 minutes ago, ply33 said:

There have been others speculating on ignition timing which seems a good guess. But I am also wondering about valve timing.

At this point, everyone's ideas should be thought about.  One thing to ask Matt (on this possibility of setting the cam incorrectly if that could be the heating issue); is if he feels that the engine is far, far worse on heating than before it was taken apart.

 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

A large amount of coolant shoots out of the radiator neck if I gently rev the engine with the cap off.

That water should not back up for very long if you gently rev the engine with cap off.  (unless it is very overfilled) Think about it as to what would happen of the cap was on; that large amount of backed up flow would have coolant constantly flowing out of the overflow pipe on a non-pressurized system while driving (which I assume it is non-pressurized?)

 

Coolant that is continuously backing up that much in top tank during a normal shop diagnosis on any engine is normally a plugged core, or a lower hose collapsing under suction.  If it only backs up for a few seconds but then stabilizes, that sounds more like just overfilled at hot level.

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Maybe it's off a tooth on the cam timing. That has to be it. I had a moment's hesitation when I was reassembling it after loosening the chain that maybe it had slipped a tooth. Then I looked at the way it is constructed and said, "Nah," because it looked highly unlikely. But now I guess anything is possible. If that cam is advanced a tooth, then the exhaust valve is opening up at the end of the combustion stroke instead of at the beginning of the exhaust stroke. That would explain the skyrocketing exhaust temperatures at least, right? With 12 cylinders on an engine stand, who would even notice it wasn't running as smoothly as possible?

 

4-5-21-5.jpg.81eb74f02494046227fb05baec1e411a.jpg

 

I'm also going to reinstall the oil cooler in the water pump--maybe that was the resistance the system needed to build pressure?

 

There's also a regulator on one of the oil lines at the water pump. I took it apart and cleaned it and extended the spring a bit to raise spring pressure, but maybe it's malfunctioning somehow (it's just a spring and a plunger).

 

I'm also going to remove the end plate on the water pump and make sure the pump is turning and the impeller is oriented properly. I don't think Jim would have made such a rookie mistake, but I'm not taking anything for granted right now.

 

We'll take the radiator to be flow tested.

 

I will have the oil pump rebuilt and check the internal regulator to make sure it's working properly.

 

And after that, if it still shits the bed, well, that will well and truly be the end of the line. I will have exhausted all possibilities.

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I keep going over this in my mind and I am inclined to think you are just not getting water flow.  All those things you mentioned above in your last post might cause concern. I don’t think you can put the water pump impeller on backwards in that you would not be able to install it into the housing I think it would hit. When you had your water pump off, the elbows on each side of your engine that the water flows through to feed the cylinder blocks, did you happen to look through or push anything through that tube that crosses through your crankcase that water pass from one side to the other?  Maybe there is a blockage there?  Also on the driver side, that elbow has a fitting on it, somebody added that I’m not sure what that fitting does may be water heater? But I would make sure there’s no blockage there. Also I still think your water pump it is not priming correctly. Like I told you before mine was a booger and for some reason when I filled it through the radiator in allowing the water to flow through radiator first direction that it managed to flush out that bubble quickly. When you do that you cannot have the water lines pinched off anywhere, The engine needs to vent through the upper hoses.  
I don’t think one tooth on your cam either direction would cause it to heat that fast, if you were running down the road pulling a long grade or something  like that I could see it happening. But not in the timeframe that you’re overheating. I believe it’s a flow issue. Somewhere you have a blockage or that pump is just not priming. Also Ed and one of his posts mentioned that at one time his water pump sucked the oil out of the grease cup and it sucked air into his water system. You have a grease cup on your water pump it’s not supposed to. it’s supposed to have a grease zert with a cap to keep it from siphoning. In the meantime take it off and put a plug in it just to see.

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While I do believe you should rebuild the oil pump, I wouldn't get too wound up about oil pressure until you get the heating problem solved. As long as there is SOME oil pressure with the engine revved up you should be fine. The engine is unloaded. No oil pressure at idle is annoying, but might not necessarily indicate a problem. You mentioned 20w50 oil earlier. If you have not done that yet, do it.

 

I doubt the cooler could improve anything, and if the gauge was between it and the oil pump it would just give you a false sense of security.

 

I spent last night staring at your pictures trying to figure out the coolant flow. I think it goes something like this, so correct me if I am wrong. From heads, both sides, through individual upper hoses to the radiator top tank. From the bottom of the radiator through ONE lower hose to the pump. From the pump, flow splits and goes 1) to the passenger side cylinder block and 2) through a passage in the aluminum crankcase (really?!) through a little elbow and into the drivers side cylinder block. No bypass passages, no thermostats, no heaters.

 

On some cars it is possible to get head gaskets in wrong, but these as you have noted are symmetrical and comparing the pictures of your gaskets to the picture of @AB-Buff 's car with the heads off, there is no difference in water passages or steam holes through the gaskets. I gather @AB-Buff 's car is cooling correctly, is that right?

 

I was wondering as @AB-Buff did if there could be some restriction in that passage or elbow. The 300+ degrees coming out of the left upper water neck strikes me as more wrong than anything else I have seen here, but I am down to wild guesses at this point. Did the water neck on the other side also hit 300+ degrees that fast?

 

I can't wait to find out what the news is about the radiator. You already had it recored didn't you? I have almost zero experience with those infrared temp guns, as they did not come along until about the same time I got out of the car business. but it looks like the radiator COOLS fine to me. I am less sure about flow. You mentioned that it will push water out with the radiator cap off. I am guessing that since this had a packing type water pump originally that it is a non-pressurized system. Is that right?  In my opinion there is no way it could be normal on a non-pressurized system for the water pump to deliver more flow than the radiator core could deal with by gravity alone. I am assuming it was liquid coming out and not a bunch of foam.

 

I would check that fuel pump pressure deadheaded into the gauge while you are waiting. If the fuel pump is delivering more pressure than @carbking says the carb can handle, the sooner you figure that out the better.

 

I also can't help wondering if the carb could be super lean on one barrel. Does it feed one half of the engine with one barrel or is there an open plenum somewhere? Is there a balance passage between the two sides?

 

I'm still wondering if the neck hit 300+ degrees right away on the passenger side like it did on the left.

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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With today’s modern oil, the chances of you having done damage are slight. I think putting the oiling system with filter and cooler back is worth a try. A V-12 will run smooth with cam timing or ignition timing issues. I can’t make sense of the heat issue and think cam timing could be the issue. Sometimes just thinking over it for a few days helps. 

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4 hours ago, Bloo said:

. . . The 300+ degrees coming out of the left upper water neck strikes me as more wrong than anything else I have seen here, but I am down to wild guesses at this point. . .

I missed that earlier. There is no way that an unpressurized system using water or water and a mix of antifreeze could get that hot which pretty much means there was no water there. So either all the water in that area vaporized very quickly and/or there wasn’t very much water in the upper water neck to begin with.

So while I still wonder about valve timing (a compression check should show if it is way off) I am becoming sympathetic to the concept that there is a lot of air in the cooling system that shouldn’t be there.

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Back to basics:

Dyke's Automotive Encyclopedia

 

Engine overheating indicated by boiling over:

1. Ignition too retarded (late)

2. want of water

3. circulation defective

4. fan not working

5. pump not working

6. radiator choked up

7. steam lock in pipes

8. mixture too rich. (note that too rich = hot... an engine running hot because it's lean is an old wives tale)

9. Using too much gas

10. Exhaust is "throttled" too much

11. Valve timing is incorrect

12. Muffler choked up

 

Crankcase very hot:

Rings worn or broken

Cracked in head of piston

Grudgeon-pin loose in piston causing gas to escape along bearing

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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Matt,  I am not a trained mechanic, but as a farmer using centrifugal water pumps I can tell you 3 things about them, number 1 , a few thousands extra gap between the impeller and the volute can make the difference between lots of water and pressure pumped and not.  Number 2, they can trap air and when they do the air stays there, many of our water and sprayer pumps have a bleed valve ( not saying you should put one).  Number 3, centrifugal pumps push water easier than they pull water, so any restrictions will effect performance.

  My suggestion before you pull everything apart is this.  Get yourself a 55 gallon drum, cut the end off that has no bung, turn it upside down on a strong 2’ tall table next to the car, take the bottom bung plug out and weld a nipple onto the plug that matches your engine water pump inlet hose. Screw it back in the drum and fill half full of water, the only challenge is to buy some crappy hose to put into top of drum.  This will tell you a couple of things, your pump is either going pump like heck or not, so you can check that off and if it does pump good and still gets super hot right away you’ll know there are deeper gremlins at play.  I know that this will eventually get hot as we do not have a fan and fins, but I have used this methods before and with no engine load it should be fine for awhile.  While you are at it you can also use this to test flow through on your radiator.  Just stand radiator below drum, attach hose to top of radiator tank, pinch hose or install valve .  Then fill drum with a known amount of gallons, you can open up the flow and a radiator like that should allow all that water out as quick as shxt through a goose. Now  the small print warning, water may be hot and can burn, water hoses under pressure if unsecured can spray hot water were you least expect it, water and steel drum can be heavy and can tip, metal table that holds drum should be engineered, built and welded by certified experts.  Only One of these warnings was thoroughly ignored by me, some day ask me to take my shirt off, or NOT!

I hope this helps Matt,

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Matt,

In the same vein as the large drum, is there a way (kinda like your evaporust setup) that you can simply run a garden hose into the block, constantly feeding it with fresh cold water?  I guess you can take the temperature of the water that exits to see how hot it gets, but this may help decide if the block passages are all open and flowing, if the water pump is indeed working......  Just spitballing.

 

Gary

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Thank you for all the suggestions and ideas, guys. Now that I've had a chance to think about the problem, I think I'll try a few ideas. 

 

1. The oil filter is already connected and operating. No change to oil pressure. In fact, it might even be lower.

 

2. I'm going to remove the bypass in the water pump and reinstall the oil cooler core and check the bypass valve in an attempt to increase oil pressure.

 

3. I am inclined to agree with those of you who believe there's air in the cooling system. That would explain the heat, both the speed at which it gets hot and the extraordinarily high temps. However, when I fill it, I use a gallon jug and fill it one gallon at a time so I know how much is in there. It holds 8 gallons and 've consistently poured 7.5 gallons. There just can't be that much air in there.

 

To test, I am going to rig up some kind of tank as @ramair suggests. I'll just let it pull from the tank and feed back into it so I can watch the flow of the water. 30 or 40 gallons of water should keep it cool for a while. Not quite sure how I'll do it, but I have some ideas. @Gary W I don't want to use a hose because it will be really cold water eventually hitting hot metal, and I don't want to risk cracking something, and two, hose water will be under pressure which will defeat the purpose of evaluating the water pump's output. So I'll let it feed from a tank and we'll see how it goes.

 

However, why the hell is the exhaust getting so hot? The muffler is setting a wood block on fire! That's abnormally hot. That's still a secondary issue, possibly related to the carburetor or possibly valve timing being off by a tooth on the timing gear. I'm less convinced that's the problem, but something needs to explain the ultra-hot exhaust.

 

4. If the tank test confirms there's a water pump problem or just air in the system, then I'll solve those problems. Then I'll remove the oil pan, rebuild the oil pump, rebuild the oil pressure regulator, and check valve timing as long as everything is apart. If I can get it to run cool for longer than 2 minutes, I can tune it properly.

 

So that's the plan. It'll be a week before I can get things together to do anything, but let's see if we can figure out the temperature issue before we tear it apart again. I hope it's not a mistake to keep running it with the oil pressure issue unresolved.

 

Or am I fool to keep butting my head against this particular wall? Sure feels like it...

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