91 won't start no crank

[jmarti67]

1991 won't start no crank

A few weeks ago Reatta cut off while driving. Tried putting in neutral and cranking but nothing.

After tow, engine would have a little whine and clicking. It was attempting to crank.

Battery died. 

Replaced battery.

Cranking but not starting. Checked fuel pressure - fine. Could hear fuel pump start when turning key to on.

Coils weren't getting power. Belt had frayed through power to ignition module.

Used a crimp clamp to temporaily connect wires. Car started.

Drove around. Tranny line popped off clamp. Fixed line.

Drove around again - car stalled twice while going slow in parking lot.

Cleaned IAC with alcohol. 

Drove around again - no issues.

Parked. Turned off car.

Turned key to start car. Won't start. No crank.

Battery volts over 12. Power wires to ignition module connected. Still hear fuel pump when turning key to on. Tried starting car in park and neutral.

Been reading through a lot of older posts but looking for where to begin.

What should I check next?  Thanks.

Edited January 23, 2020 by jmarti67 (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

Check the starter. 

[2seater]

Do you have a second key to try, or clean the contacts for the resistor in the key.

[jmarti67]

2 hours ago, DAVES89 said:

Check the starter. 

I’ll check that once the rain stops here. 

[jmarti67]

56 minutes ago, 2seater said:

Do you have a second key to try, or clean the contacts for the resistor in the key.

When my car initially died I tried cleaning my key and the spare set thinking it could be VATS - haven’t tried it this time  I’ll give it a go. 

[jmarti67]

Also, when doing diagnostics it says “no e codes” when before I had several e codes. Still getting b and r codes. 

[jmarti67]

 

On 1/23/2020 at 5:04 PM, DAVES89 said:

Check the starter. 

took starter off - ran battery to it - connected and the starter engaged if not a little erratic

video link 

 

[jmarti67]

On 1/23/2020 at 7:22 PM, jmarti67 said:

When my car initially died I tried cleaning my key and the spare set thinking it could be VATS - haven’t tried it this time  I’ll give it a go. 

 

On 1/23/2020 at 6:24 PM, 2seater said:

Do you have a second key to try, or clean the contacts for the resistor in the key.

tried second set of key - still nothing

[2seater]

I tried pausing that clip a couple of times and I don't see a complete starter gear there. Maybe I just was too slow but it sounds terrible in any case.

[jmarti67]

10 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I tried pausing that clip a couple of times and I don't see a complete starter gear there. Maybe I just was too slow but it sounds terrible in any case.

I agree that it doesn't sound good but since it does run(even badly) can I ruled this out as source of no crank? Or is the gear not fully engaging and I just can't hear it while in the car? Maybe I'll try slow mo

And thanks.

Edited January 25, 2020 by jmarti67 (see edit history)

[jmarti67]

slo-mo 

 

[Ronnie]

The contacts in the solenoid could be bad,  or the brushes in the starter could be making poor contact with the commutator. Either one could result in a starter that might  spin when off the car but fail when  under load as it tries to turn the engine.  From the sound I think that might account for the erratic sounds coming from your starter.  If you have the skills take it apart and see what you find.

[jmarti67]

Advance auto parts report. They weren’t exactly sure how to use tester machine but followed the pictures and these were the results 

[2seater]

Thanks for the slow mo, it really helped. Funny, it even sounds better, but are you trying for continuous engagement or just momentary as the clip shows?

I have no idea what that test report means. Is this a scan through the aldl or is this from a test of the starter??

[jmarti67]

13 minutes ago, 2seater said:

Thanks for the slow mo, it really helped. Funny, it even sounds better, but are you trying for continuous engagement or just momentary as the clip shows?

I have no idea what that test report means. Is this a scan through the aldl or is this from a test of the starter??

Trying for continuous but all I had was a screwdriver to make the connections so it would slip. 
The test was for the starter but it does say alternator on the test results. The test failed. They weren’t exactly sure how to use/test but the machine had a diagram/screen for the correct connections. I may try another auto store tomorrow and see what the results say. 

[jmarti67]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

The contacts in the solenoid could be bad,  or the brushes in the starter could be making poor contact with the commutator. Either one could result in a starter that might  spin when off the car but fail when  under load as it tries to turn the engine.  From the sound I think that might account for the erratic sounds coming from your starter.  If you have the skills take it apart and see what you find.

Oh boy, not sure if my skill is up to that  level but if it’s bad I may have a look 

[jmarti67]

14 hours ago, 2seater said:

Thanks for the slow mo, it really helped. Funny, it even sounds better, but are you trying for continuous engagement or just momentary as the clip shows?

I have no idea what that test report means. Is this a scan through the aldl or is this from a test of the starter??

Test from auto zone said starter was good   What else is there to check?

[Ronnie]

Turn on the headlights and try to start the car. Do the headlights go dim or stay bright?

[2seater]

I was thinking it is time for a voltmeter connected to the starter battery stud and look for a big voltage drop. That looks like a mini starter which shouldn't have a giant draw.

Maybe I am spoiled by having a first rate starter and alternator rebuilding service located locally, but when I have a doubt, it goes there for diagnosis. Not knocking the FLAPS but I have more faith in a specialist.

[jmarti67]

9 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Turn on the headlights and try to start the car. Do the headlights go dim or stay bright?

I’ll check this out when I put the starter back on. This would indicate the alternator? Would the alternator keep the car from cranking even with a jump?

thanks. 

[Ronnie]

Doing that is just a preliminary troubleshooting step to help decide where to start looking for the reason your starter won't turn the engine. 

 

If you turn the key to start the engine with the lights on and the lights go dim that might indicate a bad connection at the battery, a bad battery cable or a bad battery. 

 

If you turn the key to start the engine and the lights stay bright that might indicate something wrong with the starter or something is wrong with the circuit that activates the starter. Perhaps a bad starter interrupt relay that is part of the security system or a blown fuse among other things.

[Dashmaster]

I thought awhile back someone posted about a seized Alternator or AC pulley that was keeping the engine from turning over and starting on a car they just bought thinking the motor was bad.   They removed the Belt and it fired right up.   Just another thing to look at if everything else checks out.

[2seater]

3 hours ago, Dashmaster said:

I thought awhile back someone posted about a seized Alternator or AC pulley that was keeping the engine from turning over and starting on a car they just bought thinking the motor was bad.   They removed the Belt and it fired right up.   Just another thing to look at if everything else checks out.

Easy to check and never say never? I would think just a wrench on the damper bolt would give an immediate idea if the engine can turn over, although it is somewhat obstructed. 

[padgett]

Has anyone tried connecting a voltmeter and ammeter to the solenoid. Ammeter will tell you if any voltage drop is from the solenoid (pulls about 10A normally and need at least 9 vdc). Has the starter been out ? (missing shims can cause a bind).

[jmarti67]

On 1/26/2020 at 9:56 AM, Ronnie said:

Turn on the headlights and try to start the car. Do the headlights go dim or stay bright?

I do remember now that my interior lights and headlights were flickering the morning I drove before it wouldn't crank. Putting on the starter tomorrow and I'll check again.

[jmarti67]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:57 AM, 2seater said:

I was thinking it is time for a voltmeter connected to the starter battery stud and look for a big voltage drop. That looks like a mini starter which shouldn't have a giant draw.

Maybe I am spoiled by having a first rate starter and alternator rebuilding service located locally, but when I have a doubt, it goes there for diagnosis. Not knocking the FLAPS but I have more faith in a specialist.

 

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Has anyone tried connecting a voltmeter and ammeter to the solenoid. Ammeter will tell you if any voltage drop is from the solenoid (pulls about 10A normally and need at least 9 vdc). Has the starter been out ? (missing shims can cause a bind).

I picked up a starter after I got a failed results after one test. I'm going to put it on and see - if not I'll start looking for drops too.

[jmarti67]

On 1/26/2020 at 9:17 PM, Ronnie said:

Doing that is just a preliminary troubleshooting step to help decide where to start looking for the reason your starter won't turn the engine. 

 

If you turn the key to start the engine with the lights on and the lights go dim that might indicate a bad connection at the battery, a bad battery cable or a bad battery. 

 

If you turn the key to start the engine and the lights stay bright that might indicate something wrong with the starter or something is wrong with the circuit that activates the starter. Perhaps a bad starter interrupt relay that is part of the security system or a blown fuse among other things.

 

didn’t notice any dimming with the headlight 

[Ronnie]

51 minutes ago, jmarti67 said:

didn’t notice any dimming with the headlight 

 

That seems to indicate that power isn't getting to the starter.  When you turn the key to the run position I think the security light should come on for a couple of seconds and then go out.  Does your security light stay on?

[jmarti67]

23 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

 

That seems to indicate that power isn't getting to the starter.  When you turn the key to the run position I think the security light should come on for a couple of seconds and then go out.  Does your security light stay on?

Flashing with door open and then goes off when door is closed 

[Ronnie]

What about when you turn the key to the run position? Does the security light flash for a few seconds and then go off - or does it stay on? I can't tell that from the video.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[jmarti67]

9 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

What about when you turn the key to the run position? Does the security light flash for a few seconds and then go off - or does it stay on? I can't tell that from the video.

nope - I don’t see the security light at all when turning key 

[jmarti67]

Lots of clicks/ticks from under glovebox. Relay? Module? 

 

[2seater]

It looks like it was blinking at the lower left for a couple seconds right at the beginning prior to turning the key. I wish my car was home to verify what you should see.

[jmarti67]

1 minute ago, 2seater said:

It looks like it was blinking at the lower left for a couple seconds right at the beginning prior to turning the key. I wish my car was home to verify what you should see.

Yes it was blinking before I closed the door 

[Ronnie]

Could the noise be coming from the fuse/breaker/relay box on the passenger side of the console?  If so find out which relay is making the noise.

[jmarti67]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:57 AM, 2seater said:

I was thinking it is time for a voltmeter connected to the starter battery stud and look for a big voltage drop. That looks like a mini starter which shouldn't have a giant draw.

Maybe I am spoiled by having a first rate starter and alternator rebuilding service located locally, but when I have a doubt, it goes there for diagnosis. Not knocking the FLAPS but I have more faith in a specialist.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 1:48 PM, padgett said:

Has anyone tried connecting a voltmeter and ammeter to the solenoid. Ammeter will tell you if any voltage drop is from the solenoid (pulls about 10A normally and need at least 9 vdc). Has the starter been out ? (missing shims can cause a bind).

I alligatored some clips to the starter stud and didn't get any voltage when turning key. I did get around 12v from the constant battery cable to starter.

[jmarti67]

Clipped on a remote starter to solenoid - cranked, started, stalled.

What would keeping power to the solenoid? That power comes from the ignition correct?

 

thanks to everyone that’s been following and responding. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by jmarti67 (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

36 minutes ago, jmarti67 said:

Clipped on a remote starter to solenoid - cranked, started, stalled.

What would keeping power to the solenoid? That power comes from the ignition correct?

 

The power is routed through a starter interrupt relay that is controlled by the Theft Deterrent system. The photo below shows the flow of power to the starter.  As you can see the power also goes through the park/neutral switch. You could jumper it to see if that's the problem

 

It's pretty common to have a white wire in the steering column break keeping the key reader in the ignition lock from sending a signal to the theft deterrent module.  That could be your problem.

 

EDIT: I think the photo below applies to a '91 but I don't know for sure.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[2seater]

I'm assuming the ignition switch was in run when it was cranked? I understand the starter interrupt issue but why would it quit?

[jmarti67]

8 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I'm assuming the ignition switch was in run when it was cranked? I understand the starter interrupt issue but why would it quit?

Yes, key was in and turned for me to crank with the remote switch. 
Wondering why it quit as well...