65 switch pitch connection

[RivVrgn]

Hey all, I'm doing a light resto on my 65 but not removing drivetrain, just refreshing things. So expect other inquiries. Went to unplug it from trans and can't get it off. Don't want to force it if there is a certain way. It does turn a little, should it turn and pull off? Or just pull off with some encouragement? I can get some good leverage by grabbing it with some spark plug boot pliers. Just need to know if I should pry and pull?    thanks Joey

[telriv]

The plug pulls off. DON'T try & twist it off you will break the tabs internally. Over time the rubber on the plug gets hard as a rock.  Spray some carb. cleaner on it to soften the rubber.

[RivVrgn]

30 minutes ago, telriv said:

The plug pulls off. DON'T try & twist it off you will break the tabs internally. Over time the rubber on the plug gets hard as a rock.  Spray some carb. cleaner on it to soften the rubber.

I will do that. So I guess the rubber is stuck to the plug in the trans and that is what is turning a bit? Can I try to pry a little on the edge of the plug with a screwdriver to break the seal of the plug?

[RivNut]

Nothing comes out of the transmission.  It's a simple electrical connector. Two male terminals in a T configuration on the part that's connected to the transmission, and two female receptacle in the plastic housing at the end of the wires. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history)

[telriv]

Yes, just give the carb. c;leaner some time to soften the rubber then carefully use the screwdriver IF it's still tight use a little more carb. cleaner.

 

Tom T.

[XframeFX]

On this topic but on the other end of the wire harness, can someone post a snipit from a '65 manual showing the variable pitch / kickdown switch and dashpot arrangement? My '63 shop manual is to old and my '64 manual shows it for the ST300. Same? Also wire diagram/schematic for this wire harness?

Thanks,

John B.

[RivNut]

65 is totally different from a 64. 64s did not have the switch pitch feature.  Check Google for a possible illustration

[XframeFX]

Thanks Ed. But, of my 2 shop manuals (1963 & 1964), my '64 manual shows the Switch-Pitch setup for the ST-300 which also had the 2 internal transmission solenoids. The same wiring for the 1965 ST-400? Also, Carburetor primary shaft linkage on the nailhead, the same components and setup as on the Buick 300 (again, '64 manual)?

Under hood online images of 1965 Rivieras have the linkage area blocked by the air cleaner.

The 1st image is of a 1964 300 cu in w/AFB and has the kickdown switch removed with no evidence of a dashpot/microswitch. Same setup on 1965 Rivieras?

The 2nd image is not an AFB but shows all components on the linkage to the Rochester 2BBL.

John B.

 

[RivVrgn]

Got it thanks

[RivNut]

Don't try to compare the 64 ST400 with the 64 ST300.  There is no switch pitch for a 64 ST400, just a kickdown. The 64 ST400 does not have a micro switch either.  Just a simple plunger which activates the kickdown.

[XframeFX]

I found this thread (Nov 2017) where Bluesy66 has a '65 ST-400 in a '64 Riviera and questioning linkage arrangements. At least the '64 has the combination kickdown/switch-pitch with a harness for just the kickdown contacts. He is halfway there with the '64 setup. I'm replacing a Dynaflow with mechanical switch-pitch. Not so lucky.

However, his image is for a '64 nailhead. Still looking for the same image for a '65 nailhead and wire harness schematic.

 

If what you're saying Ed, it appears the '65 does have a dashpot with the micro-switch. So based on my assumption that the '64 ST-300 is the same, I'll start a search for a dashpot (have the switch) and build a wire harness according to my '64 manual in the ST-300 section. I modified a crimper for packard-56 connectors so it should look OEM. Only wish I had that stubborn bootie Joey (RivVrgn above) had to deal with!

 

 

[RivNut]

As the caption in the picture says, "Working on a 64 rivi with 401 and a 65 th400 tranny."  Who ever is making the conversion was smart enough to get the '65 kick down switch (and apparently the carburetor) for the conversion.  The '64 switch works the opposite of a 65 and later switch.  The 64 has no switch pitch so there's no need for a multiple terminal switch nor is there a need for the micro switch on the linkage.  If you understand how a "Switch Pitch" ST400 was designed to work, you'll know why there's no micro switch on the throttle linkage.  

 

Here are some pictures of a nailhead in a 64 Riviera.  You'll notice there's a totally different throttle blade linkage bracket on the carb for a '64 when compared to a 65 - 67.

 

Driver's side shows the switch (orange boot) and on the carb linkage there's a roller.  When the throttle is opened the linkage moves  in a clockwise direction.  The roller on the linkage will eventually contact the plunger in the switch (orange boot) and depress it.  When depressed, there is 12V sent to the solenoid on the transmission and the kickdown is activated.  The yellow wire gets 12V from the same fuse as the windshield wipers via the yellow wire.  A brown wire goes from the switch to the transmission.  That's all there is to the kickdown.  The switch is on an adjustable bracket so the kickdown can be "tuned."  

 

The roller is hard to distinguish in the picture but it "appears" to be resting on the dashpot.

 

 

This picture from the back shows the adjustment slots in the bracket and the yellow and brown wires lying between the intake manifold and the valve cover.

 

 

The worm clamp on the power brake hose and the attachment of the negative battery cable are incorrect on this engine.

Edited January 13, 2020 by RivNut
grammar (see edit history)

[RivNut]

I went back and reread your earlier post.  There is no wiring to a dash pot.  It's a spring loaded device that slows down the closing of the throttle blades.  Here's a picture of one that is mounted on a bracket.  The picture shows all there is to it.

 

 

The micro switch is part of the throttle linkage.  It has nothing to do with the dash pot.  If you're installing a 65 transmission in a 64, you need the carburetor for a 65 with a 425 (64 401's and 425's have a different carbs - theadditional cubic inches call for different metering rods, jets, etc.) Your 64 has a 425 so you need a 1965 carb for a 425.  That would be a Carter AFB #3923. You should also get the throttle linkage from the firewall to the carburetor.  The micro switch will be part of that linkage.  You should also get the complete wiring harness for the kickdown/switch pitch features.  

 

Have you noticed that a console for a '65 is longer than that of a '64?  It's necessary due to the fact that the 65 has provisions for three forward gears on the shifter and the 64 has provisions for only two forward gears.  The 65 has additional length in the console to accommodate the longer throw for a three speed gear shift.  It also requires a different bracket that bolts to the floor board.

 

63 console on the left, 64 in the middle, 65 on the right.  You can seen the additional length in the 65 console for the longer throw need for the 3 speed shifter.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history)

[telriv]

Ed & others.  They now make a dash pot that includes the micro switch built in to eliminate the problems of adjusting the switch properly.  It doesn't need the micro switch at all.  I've installed a couple of them now & they work good. Lot less hassles  & works properly as it should.

 

Tom T.

[1965rivgs]

Tom and Ed,

  Buick used a dash pot with switch in their smaller powertrains...probably what is being referred to in this thread

Tom M

[XframeFX]

Correct on smaller powertrains and also for the 2-speed ST-300. I'm assuming the car would launch in high pitch, switch to low pitch and stay there until approaching WOT where I think the kick-down setpoint is above that.

RivVrgn PM'd excellent images to me of the linkage area of his '65 nailhead. I got it now. I simply did not have a '65 shop manual for reference.

So no micro-switch on the dashpot but there is one at the back of the linkage. I'll go back to the wrecker here and remove one from a  LeSabre 300 cu in just in-case I need it down the road. Not sure how that figures in the setup. I will have all parts shortly

Enough details. On with the swap!

[RivNut]

If you have both an a/p ST300 and a s/p ST400 and you're looking for more "launch" take the converter from the ST300 and put it in the ST400.  It's an inch smaller in diameter so you'll get a higher rpm high stall. But because it's smaller it will run hotter behind a bigger engine, so you'll want to run an auxiliary transmission cooler with it.   Your ST400 flexplate is already be drilled for the smaller converter. 

 

Go over to V8Buicks.com and search for some articles on this swap.  You'll still have the same 1:1 drive when the converter switches back to low stall for the highway (or as soon as you take your foot out of it.)

[XframeFX]

Nothing's easy with this swap. Removed a LeSabre 340 cu. in. at the wreckers to get at a 13" switch-pitch torque converter and front pump from the BOP ST-400. Easy enough. Then found an Olds Jetaway with a seized 330. Made 3 trips to the self-serve wrecker in sub-zero temps to get it out, no torches allowed. Cost $25.  I then took that 12" torque converter to a shop where they had a 12" ready-to-go! Received $75 core exchange after all that hard work!

The 12" is also 25 lbs lighter - better throttle response! The Russ Martin Flexplate is dual pattern. Should be a big improvement over that 'Dynaslow'.

One more detail. I wonder how the bead chain for the Electro-Cruise hooks-up on '65 Rivieras with that micro-switch in-the-way? Nice to know OEM setup before I improvise. However, too early for that.

Still dealing with 2 bad '65 shifters. I snapped the push-rod on the seized unit, all junk.

[RivVrgn]

so, back to my plug. now i have fluid leak since i unplugged. what did i do? break the internal plug? has to be plug, was not leaking before. Can I remove the female plug to replace, if so?

[telriv]

You disturbed the seal by twisting the plug.  IF it didn't leak before it would have started very shortly.  You need to access that from inside the trans. by dropping the pan. Then buy a new o-ring & re-install.

[RivVrgn]

16 hours ago, telriv said:

You disturbed the seal by twisting the plug.  IF it didn't leak before it would have started very shortly.  You need to access that from inside the trans. by dropping the pan. Then buy a new o-ring & re-install.

ok good. I guess with 50 years it doesn't take much, i didn't twist too much but... thanks, glad I can access from the pan. Thanks again, Joey

[CanadianWildcat]

On 1/12/2020 at 12:02 AM, XframeFX said:

On this topic but on the other end of the wire harness, can someone post a snipit from a '65 manual showing the variable pitch / kickdown switch and dashpot arrangement? My '63 shop manual is to old and my '64 manual shows it for the ST300. Same? Also wire diagram/schematic for this wire harness?

Thanks,

John B.

Sorry I took so long to post. From two different 65 manuals. Hope this helps.

 

[XframeFX]

Thanks to you I have it now. Although,with all the dialogue on this,  I already ascertained the micro-switch is not on the dashpot as it is for the ST-300. Also, an image from RivVrgn explains it as well. The micro-switch is called the "Idle Stator Switch" in your scan. Did not know that.

John B.

[RivVrgn]

On 1/14/2020 at 10:28 PM, telriv said:

You disturbed the seal by twisting the plug.  IF it didn't leak before it would have started very shortly.  You need to access that from inside the trans. by dropping the pan. Then buy a new o-ring & re-install.

Ok, just got around to dropping pan. In the service manual it says basically remove plug after unplugging it, pretty vague. Do you compress the plastic clips inside and slide out? Again, don't want to force anything. any suggestions how to do this? Had a pair of needle nose on there but was afraid to squeeze too tight if that wasn't it. Thanks, Joey 

[Erick R]

Hi Guys, ok I just bought a 1964 riv with a 425 but the kick down bracket and the switch are both missing what switch and bracket should I be looking for and where does the bracket mount ? In looking at the pictures from RivNut I cannot tell where it mounts. I see nothing on the manifold or since the bolts to hold the valve cover are on top I do not see any place to mount it. I see several brackets on E bay but which one is the right one and which switch is the right one. Thanks for any help. Oh not wanting to damage anything how does the gear shift knob come off I have to replace the carpet and want to remove the center console. 

 

[telriv]

Gear shift knob just unscrews counter clockwise.

Bracket is held down with the two rear intake manifold bolts.

Look at the pic in above post. You will see the kickdown switch with the orange boot & the bracket with the adjustable sliding bracket holes on Ed's (rivnut) post.

Also the proper carb. with the roller on the linkage.

 

Tom T.

Edited April 27, 2022 by telriv (see edit history)

[Erick R]

Thanks Tom but which bracket and switch  should I be looking for i only have RivNuts picture that helps forthe bracket but not so much for the switch part number  ,boot part number  and roller part number. Thanks for any help

 

 

[Erick R]

Hi Tom and guys, since this is not being restored to factory specs I will use an off the shelf industrial limit switch rated for IP 67 and make my own bracket. The prices on E bay were to wild for me. AutomationDirect.com  Part number AEM2G45Z11-3 .  I think I can make this work. it is a roller arm limit switch that is adjustable . Make a simple bracket and I should be good to go.

[RivNut]

For the full sized Buick models, there is only one bracket  / switch.  

[RivNut]

Try some of the vendors listed in the Riview’s classifieds - Tom T., Gene Guarnere, Steve Lorenzen, James @ Best Offer Counts, Tom Mooney, et al.

[Erick R]

thanks forthe help finding the part numbers is the hardest part. I know what I need but do not know what to call it. I have a lot of wires that go no where , I figured two for the limit switch but others??Is a leaky rear main seal common on these? This is pushing oil out it appears to be the rear main seal. Thanks again for the replies. I am sure I will be asking a lot more questions as I get into this beast.

[Erick R]

what body style A,G X??? is the RIv considered? anyone have a good disc brake conversion kit source? They all ask the body style.

also I removed the nuts from the door skins but the "T" bolts spin. How do you keep them from spinning I was going to epoxy them in but wanted to get advice first since I am sure someone has run into this.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Erick

[Erick R]

ok another question for the return throttle spring I have always seen two springs one inside the other for safety in seeing what is on my car and the pictures above is this safe?? does the carb have an internal spring return built in?? Thanks agian

[telriv]

A rear main leak is a common problem with the old rope seals. BUT, BEFORE getting involved with that job look for other possibilities that will end up with oil on the flywheel cover.

The distributor O-Ring seal, the valley cover gasket, valve over gaskets, oil pan gasket, oil filter & oil filter adapter on the side of the block, the oil galley plugs on the back of the engine, the rear cam plug. 

So there's a little investigation BEFORE a rear main. IF you do end up doing this I can run you through it & provide the modern seal replacement.

 

Tom T.

Edited April 28, 2022 by telriv (see edit history)

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, Erick R said:

what body style A,G X??? is the RIv considered? anyone have a good disc brake conversion kit source? They all ask the body style.

also I removed the nuts from the door skins but the "T" bolts spin. How do you keep them from spinning I was going to epoxy them in but wanted to get advice first since I am sure someone has run into this.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Erick

E body. The original drum brakes are just as good as any disk conversion. Reform the area on the skin around the head of the T bolt. No internal return springs.

Edited April 28, 2022 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Erick R]

great news I am fine with the drums but can I add a dual master cylinder to be safer? If so is there a special proportional valve I should use or you could suggest? or power master cylinder you could point me in the right direction? Thanks again guys for all the help. Erick

[RivNut]

4 hours ago, Erick R said:

great news I am fine with the drums but can I add a dual master cylinder to be safer? If so is there a special proportional valve I should use or you could suggest? or power master cylinder you could point me in the right direction? Thanks again guys for all the help. Erick

The switch to a dual master cylinder is pretty much a simple r&r using a drum/drum master cylinder from a 67 Riviera.  There’s a complete swap article in the Tech Tips section on the ROA’s website.  www.rivowners.org.  Part numbers, and everything.

[Erick R]

ok a few more questions I am looking for springs front and rear and a front suspension rebuild kit. I can find the front springs but the back seem to not exist. The only source I found was A-1 shock absorber company the spring number is CS 5089a. It appears I have to have them made I just want to be sure it is the correct spring, 425 with air .  I found springs on OPGI but the reviews for the rear springs were not good.  Front seems to be a 5030.  

 

Also the air filter is different about 17 inches in dia and 3 inches tall with a large rubber lip on the top what part number should I be looking for . The one that Rock auto claimed was the right one was not. 

Thanks again for all the help. 

 

I applied for a membership on the rivowners .org ,how long does it take to get a reply back so I can log in.

 

In the TECH TIP section for changing out the master cylinder what title of the tech tip should I be looking for when I can log in?

Erick

 

[BulldogDriver]

Air filter is Wix 42092. 

Do a search for ‘springs’ on the forum and see what everyone has to say about the different vendors. A couple of them will build to your requirements. 

Shocks are a bit of a challenge. Monroe were an option but may not be now. Top of the line option are Bilsteins and are still available. They are not cheap. 
 

Search for ‘front end rebuild’ on the forum. Some parts are better then others and most kits are not the best for all parts. 
 

Good luck,

Ray

[RivNut]

Coil Spring Specialties in Marysville, KS. They will build a custom set for you.  Che CARS www.oldbuickparts.com for a correct air cleaner.  For peace of mind, forget trying to get the right parts from OPGI.  Once you get that first Riview, scour the classifieds for the other parts you need.