Images of the era

[md murray]

5 minutes ago, carbking said:

Same comment as I posted on the other thread: 4-barrel carburetor in 1917?????

 

Jon.

Yes I would like to see a picture of that carb too. Google search shows a 1917 model 56 that sold at hilton head auction in 2007. Auction listing says it had a Ball & Ball 4 barrel  " that included an accelerator pump for additional performance".

[TerryB]

Another postcard from my collection, backside of card tells the story.

 

[carbking]

Penberthy, the maker of the Ball & Ball carburetor, lists it as a DV (double venturii) or 2-barrel. Like most Penberthy carbs, it was a two-stage unit; but still a two-barrel. Oldsmobile used a similar Penberthy on their 8 in the same time period.

 

I have seen some ads for Oldsmobile that listed fuel injection. Penberthy's full name was "The Penberthy Injector Company".

 

Jon.

[jeff_a]

I found a bit about the car raced by Atwater-Kent and will re-write it with the picture of actual car. I accidentally erased one of my posts. They seemed to have tweaked the rear body a lot.

You can see the price of the 1917 "Sporting Roadster" at the front of the  car, $2,250 from the factory. No doors, no windshield, no top, spare concealed in rear deck.

Wire wheels, 332 cu. in. Peerless aluminum-crankcase V-8, 80 HP, 4-barrel carburetor, dual exhaust.

I know for a fact that these were all "Peerless Dragon Green".

Pretty swanky!

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Mssr. Bwatoe]

[md murray]

21 hours ago, jeff_a said:

You can see the price of the 1917 "Sporting Roadster" at the front of the  car, $2,250 from the factory. No doors, no windshield, no top, spare concealed in rear deck.

Wire wheels, 332 cu. in. Peerless aluminum-crankcase V-8, 80 HP, 4-barrel carburetor, dual exhaust.

I know for a fact that these were all "Peerless Green".

Pretty swanky!

-any idea what that lighter color was that they used for the frame and wheels? Maybe a yellow or a cream?

[jeff_a]

Found the reprinted 4-pg brochure Walter Milller sent me. It's different shades of brown so can't tell wheel & frame colors. "Dragon Green" body evoking 12 -years-ago factory racing program. Rudge  Whitworth wheels, engine driven air pump. More on the carburetor, possible survivors & body later...

 

There is a possible survivor of one of these '17'/'18 Sporting Roadsters in California...10 years ago, anyway. There is a '26 Peerless V-8(Mod. 69 technically) that was assembled as on of those time-distance rally cars, plus a '17, both by John Hollansworth, I believe. One has quite sophisticated bodywork, the other was a bit plain with just a fuel tank and steel trunk behind the 2 seats. The '26 had a streamlined tail fabricated and is now a gentleman's racer in Belgium(surprisingly like the 2nd picture I posted of the Atwater-Kent race-prepped car. There are a couple more cars floating about you could call speedsters: the "Fearless Peerless" Tom LaFerriere in Providence, Rhode Island has, and a white and green one in Maine last time I heard. Both of those are re-creations from other body styles.

 

I truly don't know the maker of the body. It was definitely a factory-offered, turn-key body style. Not just a concept car or auto show one-off. With Peerless....just like Duesenberg, and Packard....you have a long list of production, semi-custom, and custom body firms to draw from: about 48.  Were these built by LeBaron? Peerless Body? Raulang? Budd? Brunn? Demarest? Springfield? I don't know.

 

I have never owned a Model 56 Peerless in the 1916 to 1920 range and do not have have a Ball & Ball carburetor, but  Richard Lichtfeld has three of these cars. A couple of times in the past carbking has questioned the four-barrel description, and Richard has upheld the description of some of the carburetors as four-barrel with quite a few posts, and I tend to believe him. He is President of the Peerless Club and probably the leading authority on Model 56 Peerlesses. Unfortunately he is not in good health right now, so probably not disposed to enter the debate floor a third time on the subject. I'll try to C+P a bit of the earlier discussion:

 

Richard Lichtfel 

530 posts   Posted December 15, 2009

"James Whalen,

I am browsing through the old Peerless forum stuff and just came across your question about the carburetor for the model 56 Peerless. Sorry I didn't see this before.

Yes the 56 takes a Ball & Ball carburetor. This is a four barrel, two stage carburetor with accelerator pump. This will power the Peerless as fast or faster than you want to go. I have a 1916 touring and have had it up to 60 mph with throttle left. I don't drive it this fast but I was trying to out run a storm. A comfortable cruising speed is 40 to 45 mph.

If you need a carburetor let me know, I know someone that has one but it is not cheap, I think he wants $1,000 for it. I also have the manuals on this carburetor.

Let me know if you get this message.

Sorry about the delay. RHL"

 

thegreendragon

• Member
• 58 posts 
• Posted September 2, 2015

"But look at the carburetor-----four separate air passage ways with separate jets, one low speed and one high speed for the left bank of cylinders and the same for the right bank.  The manifold has two passage ways--- one for left and one for right. Four throats going into two passage ways.    Ball & Ball two stage carburetor with accelerator pump."

 

 

thegreendragon

• Member
• 58 posts Posted September 18, 2015

"I saw that and it has two water returns for the Peerless V-8.  Looks to be in good shape and worth the money if you need one.  RHL

 

Getting back to the Ball & Ball carburetor,  About 50 years ago my carb was acting up and I didn't know much about it, I put an ad in for help and a fellow contacted me who was a salesman for the Penberthy Company and had a bran-new Ball & Ball carburetor in the box it came in. He said he kept it all these years just to show these young wipersnappers how advanced they were in 1915 when they came out with this "four barrel--two stage carburetor with accelerator pump."   I bought it from him along with some manuals and he showed me the workings and adjustments.  The salesman called it a four barrel and I assumed that is what it was.   (who cares!)  as long as it works."

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Here are some GM factory photos of new 1932 Cadillac V-12s and V-16s:

[jeff_a]

A Norwegian sent in this photo 11 years ago, asking on the What Is It Forum what it was.

 

 

[Walt G]

OK, two more Images, an extreme motorcycle and an extreme solid tire truck.

[keiser31]

Looks to be a Packard truck. Cool Henderson bike!

Edited February 25, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:36 PM, jeff_a said:

A Norwegian sent in this photo 11 years ago, asking on the What Is It Forum what it was.

 

 

Auburn Boat tail speedster.

[Graham Man]

1912 Henderson: this one sold for over $500,000 in 2017

 

https://autoweek.com/article/motorcycles/1912-henderson-motorcycle-goes-half-million-mecums-las-vegas-auction

[Walt G]

We have some very astute readers here on the forums! I am not surprised from the response to answers as to what I posted in period photographs. Thanks guys. I will add that the Packard truck is 1912.

Location of the company noted on the side of the van is about 8 miles south of where I live and NO I wasn't around when it was made ! ( have a few "friends " that I know are thinking that and would have e mailed me to that affect!😄)

[TexRiv_63]

Here are a few more family photos of my Mother, Grandfather and Mother-in-Law from the late 30s-early 40s. I know Grandpa's car is a 39 (?) Ford, not sure of the other two cars.

[md murray]

I remember reading that the really high-end vehicles came with a chauffeur when you bought them back in the early days. This photo looks like one of those joints

[Stude Light]

How about a moving picture? This video is from 1937 of my local Fire Department in Chesaning, MI.  The "story" from the locals is that Henry Ford himself delivered this fire truck to the department in 1935 and Ford used it for some promotional work.  It is still owned by the Chesaning-Brady Fire Department.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB16D2b_PpY

You can jump to 3:53 if you don't want the whole story

 

 

This picture is of the department's first fire truck.  The only thing that remains of that is the two side lanterns

 

Prior to the trucks were horses - looks a bit like a marching band to me

 

 

[Walt G]

RR Phantom II  car AJS 257 with Brewster body

photo taken in NY City in 1948

It was owned then by Robert L. Wilbur of NY City

[Walt G]

7 hours ago, md murray said:

I remember reading that the really high-end vehicles came with a chauffeur when you bought them back in the early days. This photo looks like one of those joints

Yes there was a great number of automobiles imported into the USA, especially after WWI when auto manufacturing returned to Europe. New York City was the main import venue as it had the deep water at the Hudson River so ocean liners loaded with passengers and their holds filled with goods could dock there, plus it was the closest port of call in the USA to Europe . Transportation on the West side of Manhattan was good as well with the rail system ( now known as the Hi Line) . The majority of the west side of Manhattan was very industrial in use and most of the car dealerships were there as well as their service garages and hotels and clubs for chauffeurs.

I am in the middle of writing a story on the activity of the Belgian built Minerva cars and their sales and dealership locations in the USA. Many of the luxury cars in the 1920-40 era that arrived from Europe were coming in as chassis to avoid extra tax/tariff fees and then were bodied here by American coach builders. Prior to WWI when the cars in this picture were here they were imported complete with bodies.

[John_Mereness]

19 hours ago, Walt G said:

RR Phantom II  car AJS 257 with Brewster body

photo taken in NY City in 1948

It was owned then by Robert L. Wilbur of NY City

Attempt at skirting fenders to "modernize" 

[alsancle]

59 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Attempt at skirting fenders to "modernize" 

 

And well done too.

[Walt G]

Since it was NY City the owner had to be familiar with J.S.Inskip who had garage and headquarters on the upper east side of Manhattan. Perhaps they not only serviced the car ( or perhaps stored it during the winter as well) but added the "upgrade" to modernize the fenders.

[8E45E]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2020 at 6:57 PM, Walt G said:

I am in the middle of writing a story on the activity of the Belgian built Minerva cars and their sales and dealership locations in the USA..

I hope you will also include Canadian Minerva sales, if there were any imported to Canada.

 

Craig

[Walt G]

Craig

From what I can find, there were no dealers/agents for Minerva cars in Canada at least from the publications of the period I have access to as well as the sales literature printed in English and aimed at the countries that spoke that language . There was a major Minerva agent in London that printed their own huge sales catalog in color with tipped in plates that was twice the size and content of what Minerva in Belgium printed and distributed in its English edition. An educated guess on my part would be that the London agent for Minerva was the one that would also have the sales covered for Canada since that country was under British rule and thus would have more favorable import/export agreements. ( ie Buick had its own production plant in Canada due to their popularity in England, because the cars were made there, the import/export tax factor was much different then the cars produced in the USA)  When ever I research or write something I try to cover all I can but there are times I have to focus on a specific area or country just do to the effort and space limitations I have to see the story fit in, if you can understand that. A book on Minerva would cover their entire scope of sales and location of dealerships worldwide . Walt

[8E45E]

5 hours ago, Walt G said:

Craig

From what I can find, there were no dealers/agents for Minerva cars in Canada at least from the publications of the period I have access to as well as the sales literature printed in English and aimed at the countries that spoke that language . There was a major Minerva agent in London that printed their own huge sales catalog in color with tipped in plates that was twice the size and content of what Minerva in Belgium printed and distributed in its English edition. An educated guess on my part would be that the London agent for Minerva was the one that would also have the sales covered for Canada since that country was under British rule and thus would have more favorable import/export agreements. ( ie Buick had its own production plant in Canada due to their popularity in England, because the cars were made there, the import/export tax factor was much different then the cars produced in the USA)  When ever I research or write something I try to cover all I can but there are times I have to focus on a specific area or country just do to the effort and space limitations I have to see the story fit in, if you can understand that. A book on Minerva would cover their entire scope of sales and location of dealerships worldwide . Walt

Thanks for sharing what you know so far about Minerva sales in North America.  Minervas shipped through the U.K. to Canada (and other Commonwealth countries.) do make sense, as I posted a 1922 Minerva here with a Salmon & Sons body that was sold new in New Zealand.  The U.K. supplied body would have significantly reduced import duties on them.

 

One a different note, about 15 years ago, I sent a rather comprehensive list to James Flammang, Editor of 'Standard Catalog of Imported Cars 1946-2000' of imported cars that were available in Canada, and not in the USA, and vice versa.  I also included photocopies of the Canadian market literature showing some of these different cars and/or models.  I never did receive a reply from him, or see any updates in subsequent editions of his book.

 

Craig

Edited February 28, 2020 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, Walt G said:

Craig

From what I can find, there were no dealers/agents for Minerva cars in Canada at least from the publications of the period I have access to as well as the sales literature printed in English and aimed at the countries that spoke that language . There was a major Minerva agent in London that printed their own huge sales catalog in color with tipped in plates that was twice the size and content of what Minerva in Belgium printed and distributed in its English edition. An educated guess on my part would be that the London agent for Minerva was the one that would also have the sales covered for Canada since that country was under British rule and thus would have more favorable import/export agreements. ( ie Buick had its own production plant in Canada due to their popularity in England, because the cars were made there, the import/export tax factor was much different then the cars produced in the USA)  When ever I research or write something I try to cover all I can but there are times I have to focus on a specific area or country just do to the effort and space limitations I have to see the story fit in, if you can understand that. A book on Minerva would cover their entire scope of sales and location of dealerships worldwide . Walt

 

 

Walt,  a book on Minerva would be awesome.    I'll pre-order one from you!

[Walt G]

I am always happy to share what I have or know about, be it information or images. This rich automotive history - of the cars, people that designed and built them , the buildings they were created in, the artists that drew the images for the promotional material etc etc. all in my view need to be recognized and remembered. Even the early collectors who saved a lot of the material half a century or more ago need to be recognized for that! Thomas McKeon who was an AACA President saved literature, and that now is back with AACA!  Austin Clark was my good friend and lived close by, he was my inspiration to share the history as well as preserve it.
Not sure how many reading this are aware that if it wasn't for Austin Clark the Mack truck archives of glass plate negatives would have been destroyed and lost forever in the early 1950s. Mack 's early years were in Brooklyn, NY before they relocated to Pa. When they relocated there were approximately 47 four drawer steel filing cases of glass plate negatives in Brooklyn. They did not plan to move them - Austin heard about them and arranged to go get them and had them brought to his home in Glen Cove , NY and put in the basement of his house. They were saved and another friend of mine John Montville wrote his book on Mack using these negatives as a primary source. I worked for Austin in the early 1970s when I first got out of college in his library and got to see all those glass plate negatives first hand,. Can you imagine how much material was there - the negatives were all about 8 x 10 in size, just to pull open a file drawer was an effort due to the weight of the glass. 

So many "images of the era" were saved and the negatives eventually, numerous decades later , went back to Mack.

[Walt G]

10 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

 

Walt,  a book on Minerva would be awesome.    I'll pre-order one from you!

Thanks Al but it will not be me who will write one on Minerva, there is a fellow who has been in contact with me from The Netherlands who is doing that!

😃  Walt