Need help figuring this car out, 1911 Model 25?

[beardbros]

Hello,

 I have a friend that is trying to figure out exactly what he has. The title for his car says it is a 1911 and he was told it is a model 25. He purchased it over 40 years ago from the Time-Was museum in Mendota IL. Can anyone verify this by the pictures and numbers on the engine?

 

 

 

[Pete Phillips]

There ought to be an oval tag riveted to the frame rail somewhere, with the serial # on it. Usually 6-12 inches from the end of the frame, facing outwards; sometimes on the rear of the frame but more often near the front end of the frame. Your engine # isn't very helpful because I can see a couple of different styles and sizes of numbers.

Pete Phillips

[beardbros]

29 minutes ago, Pete Phillips said:

There ought to be an oval tag riveted to the frame rail somewhere, with the serial # on it. Usually 6-12 inches from the end of the frame, facing outwards; sometimes on the rear of the frame but more often near the front end of the frame. Your engine # isn't very helpful because I can see a couple of different styles and sizes of numbers.

Pete Phillips

 

 

Ok, I will go look for the tag and report back asap.

[Morgan Wright]

This says model 25 was 1913: http://www.carnut.com/specs/gen/buick20.html

 

This also says 1913: http://www.classiccardatabase.com/prewar-models/car-models-B.php

 

They say model 24 and 25 were the same series, both available in roadster and touring http://www.classiccardatabase.com/specs.php?series=3744&year=1913&model=2159

.

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Edited January 2, 2020 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

The round radiator badge suggests a late 1911 or 1912. 

With only photos to go by, my vote is for a 1912 Model 29 Touring.

 

[Morgan Wright]

Measure the wheelbase. Is it 105 or 108?

 

http://www.carnut.com/specs/gen/buick20.html

[Brian_Heil]

As a recent new owner of a 1911 Model 33 Buick, I have been working on my early Buick identification skills.

 

I'm no expert but here is what I do.

 

F's are easy, just look for the big flywheel hanging down mid car for the under seat 2 cylinder motor and the fuel fill cap mid way down the hood..

 

At a glance when one passes an early Buick on the road, front doors or no front doors?  Front doors were added in most cases in 1912.  (True for many other brands too.)

 

Right hand drive or left?  Buick went left hand drive in 1914.

 

Leading edge of the front fender and trailing edge of the rear fender.  What do they look like?  With that said I've seen several fender swaps I assume due to damage back in the day.

 

Hand crank position.  Through the radiator, through the radiator surround or through the frame front cross member?

 

Shift controls.  Pod inside the car is 1912.  First year but not on all models. 

 

Front axle.  Round, round with a drop or forged I beam with or without a drop?

 

Door handles or none and style.  Hinge placement.

 

Spring perch ends, style.

 

Cowl.  Flat or curved?

 

If you are lucky enough, wheel base length.

 

With this information I ply through my trusty 70 Years of Buick.

 

 

With this car we have 4 doors, right hand drive, and internal shift pod, round dropped front axle, crank through the front cross member that has a drop also.

 

I say 1912 Model 35.  Note the rearward windshield supports are add ons.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

I agree with Mark as it being a 1912 but a model 35 as the rear fenders match factory illustrations. Model 29 fenders have a horizontal flat section at the trailing end.  A check of the wheelbase should confirm if 101.75 inches.

Here I am (at right) talking to Gill Fitzhugh "The Elder" in his well toured 1912 model 35. Taken at Hershey.

[Brian_Heil]

The round front axle and crank location are key to making it a model 35  

[Terry Wiegand]

I am curious as to the two sets of numerical stampings on the front crankcase mounting arm.  I am of the thinking that this would be the engine number, but why two sets of numbers?  Could this mean that the engine might have been replaced at some point in time?  Could one number be the casting number and the other be the engine number?  But, another question is WHY would they have STAMPED BOTH SETS of numbers - casting numbers are normally raised from going through the foundry process.  What say the extremely knowledgeable folks out there about this?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[beardbros]

Thanks for all the help everyone! I will visit the car this weekend and report back with the findings.

[Morgan Wright]

[Mark Shaw]

On 1/2/2020 at 7:36 AM, Brian_Heil said:

shift controls.  Pod inside the car is 1912.

Brian,  I agree with all you mentioned, but shift and brake locations are not consistent for all models.  

My 1912 Model 34 Roadster has outside shift and brake controls. 

And, my 1913 Model 31 has the shift & brake controls inside the driver's door.

Most right side photos won't show this because the spare location obscures it.  

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Agree Mark and will update my post. 
 

[beardbros]

I got over to see the car today and here are my findings. So it seems we have a 1912 Model 35 Touring by the information from the preceding posts.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by beardbros (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Here are the official production records from Buick on that years vehicles. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

I am waiting for comments about the 'stamped' numbers on the crankcase arm.  The frame number issue has been laid to rest.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Shaw]

11 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

the 'stamped' numbers on the crankcase arm

That is the engine number which Buick didn't match or document it's relationship to the frame numbers. 

One can only determine if the engine was made close to the date the chassis was married to the engine.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

I DO understand what you said here - no issue with that.  The thing that has me wondering just what is going on is the apparent TWO sets of stamped numbers on the crankcase arm.  This is the first time that I have ever seen anything like this.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[tomcarnut]

I have two 1912 Buick model 35’s. One is a McLaughlin -Buick and is also titled 1911 as it was built probably in late 1911. This car we are discussing is definitely a 1912 model 35. They did not originally have brass radiators so this one was made for it at some point. A friend of mine got a basket case 12 model 35 a number of years ago that came with a new brass radiator. While he and I know it was not correct it did not make sense to built another one. It went on to AACA Grand National status. Have fun. Great tour cars. Gil who is pictured in the blue one at Hershey has driven his a lot as have I

 

Tom Muth

Cincinnati, Ohio