"Patina"

[rocketraider]

Am I the only one who doesn't get "patina"? Especially if someone has gone to trouble and expense of making the interior and drivetrain very nice, but then clearcoats rusty metal and worn-thru paint.

 

An unrestored original car, or even something like that Olds Limited that showed up some years ago is one thing, but I don't see finishing part of the car to standard and then ignoring the rest.

 

Someone on another board I frequent once had a sig line "Patina doesn't mean holes big enough to sling a cat through". Maybe I'm not meant to understand such things.

[Walt G]

"patina" to me is the latest popular "in word"  , to describe a car part or car that was borrowed from the antiques trade , another one is "refurbish' or "refurbished". What happened to the word used for decades to describe cars such as - restored . Do old paintings get "refurbished" houses, ??  I guess the next use of the word refurbished will be used to describe someone who has had a face lift, or wrinkles removed,  I can hear it now - going to spend the next few hours being refurbished because my patina is showing to much. Geez.

[R Walling]

 If you are buying 17th century furniture, patina is an absolute must. Anything refinished is valued way less.

 Cars though, are another thing.

 It used to be that you repainted a car to increase the value, that may not be the case if the car has been well taken care of and shows wear and tear from years of use.

 

 It may be that it only has surface rust, but is in super fine condition with out any body rot. That car will bring a premium over a very fine restoration.

 A car usually has so many dents and rot that it must be repainted so that used to be the norm.

 

 It all boils down to what you are looking for in an antique desk or a car. Something that shows care and history or something new.

 

That's why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

 This car was not cleared, it has an application of ATF and WD40 just the way I wanted it. I have scene sold it and it takes all the trophy's at the local car show.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Not the only one!  To me patina is just another phrase for “rust I don’t want to deal with so I’ll clear coat it”. 

Have fun 

[JamesR]

I have a (close to) 60 year old car with original paint and interior that's noticeably less than perfect, but that's meant as a tribute to "originality" not "patina." In my opinion, that's kind of the point, just as with museum pieces, old musical instruments (where tone is critical) or 17th century furniture. Some folks latch on to the idea of patina because it's very conspicuous, but it's peripheral to my intent. On my other car, however, I had to have the rust repaired and the body repainted because the rust had gone too far.

 

Here's my all original car (covered with dust rather than rust):

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by JamesR (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I have my definition and I'm happy with it, I also know what is a Classic car is and what is not. If it bothers some leave it in 2019. Happy New Year! Bob 

[TerryB]

Every time I look in the mirror I see more “patina”, does that mean I’m getting more valuable as an unrestored original? I’m still sporting my original paint but my upholstery on top is thinning and I can be a bit finicky to get started, at least that’s what my wife says at times.

[Marty Roth]

6 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Every time I look in the mirror I see more “patina”, does that mean I’m getting more valuable as an unrestored original? I’m still sporting my original paint but my upholstery on top is thinning and I can be a bit finicky to get started, at least that’s what my wife says at times.

 

I resemble that comment -

maybe lube for the joints would help?

[TerryB]

I just had a glass of Pinot Noir to help with joint lubrication!  

[Matt Harwood]

I get it and I like it. At a glance, it may be viewed as a cop-out and an attempt to cut costs, but there's an undeniable appeal to a well-used but still functional piece of machinery. I don't much care for the fake patina, but if your car has earned it honestly then I'm all in favor of keeping it that way if it pleases you. I also understand the new hardware underneath--at that point the patina isn't a financial choice but an aesthetic one, and I still get it. A machine that works properly is a joy so go ahead and do what it takes to make it operate to your standards. My favorite leather chair is creased and rubbed bare in places--it took me years to get it that way and in my opinion it has only gotten better. I wouldn't trade it for a brand new one.

 

And I have to admit a low-maintenance collector car has its appeal. I've discovered that it's very liberating to have a car that doesn't worry about bugs or road debris or weather. Go to any show and you'll see virtually everyone walks right past all the shiny, perfect cars but a vehicle with some age and "patina" and signs of use will make them stop and admire and ingest the car's history almost through osmosis. 

For instance, I don't think this Model T would have been nearly as appealing with a shiny, fresh restoration. The engine and transmission were rebuilt, the brakes were new, the front wheels had been freshly re-spoked, and all the hardware had been freshened, but they left the look alone. It drove like new, but looked every bit of 100 years old. I do not think a gleaming coat of black paint (or God forbid, taking it back to "original" touring car configuration) would be any kind of improvement:

 

  

Edited January 1, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

To me, the word "patina"is right up there with phrases like "barn find" and "numbers matching". While there WAS an actual meaning some time ago, they quickly morphed into buzz words meant to trigger a reaction rather than convey a meaning. "Barn find" began as finding a decent true original car in a barn (generally a car that had been in that barn since about WWII, or before). And basically everybody in the antique automobile hobby knew what meant. Now it has come to mean any old car  that hasn't been out for a couple years. It can be found in any place from an attached garage to a back field. They come out of modern shipping containers, storage facilities, and carports. Most "barn finds" today have been restored at least once (whereas before it always meant a car that had never been restored). Many of them now restored or modified a few times, anything from the worst amateurish bad fix-up to show winners.

 

"Numbers matching" was originally used to differentiate a nice muscle car that still had its original major pieces from one that had been raced and abused for many years with replacement parts used for repairs of damage or to enhance performance beyond its original design. That was an important distinction for high end muscle car collectors. Since then, so-called professional restorations shops have gone to cutting part of the firewall and frame from a destroyed car and welding them into a pieced together recreation with parts from a dozen or more other cars. Just so they can claim it as "numbers matching". Beyond that, "numbers matching" has become used on thousands of cars for which the original meaning never did apply. Most cars before 1930 never did have a given serial number in any places that it needed to match. Many cars even up to WWII did not require "numbers matching" identification tags. Even worse today. Many people use the "numbers matching" phrase to mean that the title they have "matches" the serial number on the car. Well, please pardon my language, but, THE NUMBERS ON THE TITLE DAMN WELL BETTER MATCH THE NUMBERS ON THE CAR as the title would NOT be legal if those numbers didn't match! Sorry about that, but I hate it every time I see someone brag about having a title that "matches" the car they are selling, and therefore it is a "numbers matching" car. Since new titles are issued every time a car is sold, a current title is basically meaningless as far as provenance is concerned. Earlier and original titles are of course of value to the car's history and provenance.

 

"Patina" for collector cars started out referring to a still very original car in reasonably nice condition that wore its years of gentle use well. Today? People build "patina" cars. They pick up a rusted out hulk, buy parts that a few years ago most collectors would have sent to the dump, and put together a running pile that actually was not even a car before and brag about the "patina". I do NOT like "buzz words".

 

A car is what a car is. Whether it is an assembled pile of junk, a cheap amateur restoration of a marginally interesting car? Or one of the top ten Duesenbergs in the world. It can be a fun car to own, drive, show off at the local cruise in, or tour with the best of clubs. Or even just sit in the garage and admire it.

 

And,  by the way Roger W and James R, Nice cars!

[Bill Harmatuk]

Well said, Matt.

I agree 100%. 

Happy New Year.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Patina shows how a car has survived for 40-100 years. It shows the historical passage of time, but is only important if a car has never been refurbished or restored. Once new paint is applied, a new interior is installed or different drive train is used, that historical time line is interrupted. Any future talk of patina is without substance. For the last twenty five years a cars history has been a hugely important part of the hobby-patina makes the story possible.

[zepher]

Here's a shot looking out the windshield as our Pierce is going down the road.

Notice the 'patina' next to the cowl vent. 😀

[mercer09]

someone who has had a face lift,

 

better known in the industry as the "surprise face"...............

[60FlatTop]

Hopefully, this Summer, I can fix some of the patina issues on my '60 Buick. I can't help any much with the sanding dust from repainting the driver's front fender, but I will have a set of threadbare blue carpets if anyone needs them.

 

They will be my trash, but if you'd like to treasure them.......

 

Bernie

Edited January 1, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

I took some flak from some old car guys last summer about my 1966 Studebaker that had original paint that was worn thru and had authentic "rust" in a lot of spots.

So instead of letting it get worse I had it repainted. I offered to sell it to all the naysayers before I had it redone for under $3000 running and driving but they all had excuses why they couldn't buy it. BTW the roof white was a bad rattle can addition long before I got it.

[Ed Luddy]

after

[Pfeil]

 Very heavy unfortunately in the modified VW crowd;

They think this looks good.

[TexRiv_63]

I don't normally use the word "patina" unless I'm listing something on ebay. I prefer to use "original". I agree with others that my personal appearance and abilities have acquired lots of "patina" so maybe that is why I appreciate original cars now a lot more than shiny restorations. I also think the word "honest" needs to be mixed with "original" when it comes to cars. Two of my current hobby cars are honest originals in greatly varying condition and I love them both. I am actively working to make them dependably driveable but I am not planning on changing their appearance. I am thinking about getting a couple of "Please Touch This Car" signs for use at car shows....

[mercer09]

after 50 years in cars, patina is the end all for me. no interest in 25k paint jobs. they do nothing for me.

[Billy Kingsley]

I don't mind cars with actual wear and tear. Fake "patina", aka rust, is stupid though. Why? There is a Studebaker pickup that I see at a show every year with a perfectly fine body that has rust painted on it. 

 

I have seen modern imports with a full wrap rust. At least being a wrap it's removable.

 

Maybe it's because I grew up poor with cars that barely ran and were rusting apart before my eyes, but I prefer the cars that look nice. 

[John_Mereness]

It's called: by the time I do all the mechanical work, I am pretty worn down and really do not spend the time on the cosmetics that I need to, other fish to fry, and if it lasted this long then perhaps just keep my hands off of it. 

[Pfeil]

The kind of fake patina Billy is talking about is like what I'm talking about.

This is how you try to get attention at a car show or cruise when you don't know how to do a proper job. Jeezzz the guy can't even put a surfboard on correctly!!!

[Ed Luddy]

IF I had been able to buy the 66 Studebaker 10 years ago then I could have probably saved the original paint. But I couldn't stand watching the bare metal getting worse and the dings starting to bleed thru. 

[John Byrd]

TexRiv_63, be careful about the please touch signs.  When I got my Sunbeam Tiger safe enough to drive after the previous owner had wrecked it, I did exactly that.  All my buddies thought I was nuts, but I thought it was neat watching the responses and the few that actually did touch or open the door to set in it (also had that on the display card).   THEN, some joker set down in  it, lit up a cigarette, and proceeded to knock his ashes off on the shifter knob after he had flipped all the switches to see what they would do I guess !!!!!   I was close enough to see this while talking to friends, and trotted right over and put his "Ashes" right out of the car, and not too politely.  There is always one......

[J.H.Boland]

i once had to have my '21 Chevy appraised for insurance purposes.The car was restored in the early '70's, when multiple coats of hand rubbed lacquer was the way to get a show finish. Over the years,the paint on the front fenders had cracked noticeably due to vibration. The appraiser,a good friend, said simply , "we call that patina". 

My '29 McLaughlin Buick was restored over 30 years ago. In a few spots,like the hood, the paint is getting a bit thin. The mohair upholstery on the driver's side has lost some of it's "hair". I've had people come up to me and ask where I found such a beautifully preserved old car.

Patina ,stage two, I guess.

[JamesR]

5 hours ago, Ed Luddy said:

after

 

Great job on the Studebaker, Ed. I love it! It's like you've given a beautiful 53 year old lady a lovely new gown to wear...and she looks fantastic!

 

A lot of the people see an all original car for a moment and think it should stay that way. I usually agree with that perspective, but those folks don't necessarily see how the car and finish have declined over the years, like the owner does. They don't see how the dime size rust holes have eventually become quarter size...and will eventually become larger. There comes a time (IMHO) when people who really love all original cars (like me...see the '61 merc earlier in this thread) have to acknowledge that having rust properly fixed and body, trunk  and floor surfaces properly protected becomes necessary for the car to survive for future generations. I totally love all-original cars with scars and wear, but I had to face the fact that my station wagon was going to need work to keep the body from declining and the floors from rusting through. When I had that work done, I found that there was some bondo and localized touch up paint there, so the car wasn't as original as I'd thought. I've never regretted having that work done.

Edited January 1, 2020 by JamesR (see edit history)

[JamesR]

4 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

I don't normally use the word "patina" unless I'm listing something on ebay. I prefer to use "original". I agree with others that my personal appearance and abilities have acquired lots of "patina" so maybe that is why I appreciate original cars now a lot more than shiny restorations. I also think the word "honest" needs to be mixed with "original" when it comes to cars. Two of my current hobby cars are honest originals in greatly varying condition and I love them both. I am actively working to make them dependably driveable but I am not planning on changing their appearance. I am thinking about getting a couple of "Please Touch This Car" signs for use at car shows....

 

Man, you have the coolest cars! That wagon and Chevy coupe are beyond cool, in fact.

[Pfeil]

Here's mine, I special ordered this in the spring of 1976. Original complete driveline, exhaust, interior, paint and chrome. 44 years old this spring 115,000 miles.

 

everything under the hood including the engine is original paint.

 

[Bhigdog]

"Patina" is like pornography:  I can't define it but I know it when I see it (or not)................Bob

[knee-action]

When I was in high school, I dated a girl named Patina Martin.

[Gunsmoke]

When topics like this get posted, the first thing the poster should do as a courtesy to everyone is look up the definition of the word, in this case as it might pertain to our Hobby. "Patina" per Webster says "a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use". As previously noted it is a very valuable, indeed priceless attribute to most artwork, antiques, old coins and other collectibles, and I think Automobiles. However "Patina" is not a substitute for fully surface rusted, worn to the bone, ripped and torn, etc. It is a very proper and particular word only intended to be used when referring to an object that is in largely original condition, and has it's original surface finish, notwithstanding that the finish has the expected signs of wear for a piece so old. Like many words, of course people mis-use it.  Most old car guys buy restored cars, or plan to restore them, and the show category is often measured by how pristine a car is as it would have come from the showroom. I.e. patina" is not a positive (except in HPOF). Many serious collectors however only look for wonderful un-restored cars, which show their age beautifully without needing a lot of attention.

 

However an old car is not like a piece of old furniture. It is much more complex. A 200 year old Oak table with it's original "patina" can be used for another 100 years as a table. However old cars need to be able to be driven safely, reliably and affordably. So when an owner decides to maintain the "patina", including the paint, brightwork, maybe even the tires, and interior, I applaud them. As for the mechanicals, safety, reliability and affordability often dictate some at least minimum level of attention, and in some cases complete re-building (such as a new wiring harness). So as I opened, "patina" refers to what you can see and appreciate as natural aging. And there is an un-defined limit of where "patina" ends and worn beyond it's useful life begins.  The Coupe pictured earlier is an excellent example of patina, and nearing the point of needing attention. Any efforts by the owner to retain the patina should be endorsed (waxes, WD40, other non-invasive surface treatments). I also like patina on a rebuilt engine, a re-build does not demand repainting, re-chroming, etc, surfaces should be allowed to show their wear.

[Pfeil]

15 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

When topics like this get posted, the first thing the poster should do as a courtesy to everyone is look up the definition of the word, in this case as it might pertain to our Hobby. "Patina" per Webster says "a surface appearance of something grown beautiful especially with age or use". As previously noted it is a very valuable, indeed priceless attribute to most artwork, antiques, old coins and other collectibles, and I think Automobiles. However "Patina" is not a substitute for fully surface rusted, worn to the bone, ripped and torn, etc. It is a very proper and particular word only intended to be used when referring to an object that is in largely original condition, and has it's original surface finish, notwithstanding that the finish has the expected signs of wear for a piece so old. Like many words, of course people mis-use it.  Most old car guys buy restored cars, or plan to restore them, and the show category is often measured by how pristine a car is as it would have come from the showroom. I.e. patina" is not a positive (except in HPOF). Many serious collectors however only look for wonderful un-restored cars, which show their age beautifully without needing a lot of attention.

 

However an old car is not like a piece of old furniture. It is much more complex. A 200 year old Oak table with it's original "patina" can be used for another 100 years as a table. However old cars need to be able to be driven safely, reliably and affordably. So when an owner decides to maintain the "patina", including the paint, brightwork, maybe even the tires, and interior, I applaud them. As for the mechanicals, safety, reliability and affordability often dictate some at least minimum level of attention, and in some cases complete re-building (such as a new wiring harness). So as I opened, "patina" refers to what you can see and appreciate as natural aging. And there is an un-defined limit of where "patina" ends and worn beyond it's useful life begins.  The Coupe pictured earlier is an excellent example of patina, and nearing the point of needing attention. Any efforts by the owner to retain the patina should be endorsed (waxes, WD40, other non-invasive surface treatments). I also like patina on a rebuilt engine, a re-build does not demand repainting, re-chroming, etc, surfaces should be allowed to show their wear.

 

I agree with your definition however in the car hobby people have distorted automobile terms quite often such as the word "CLASSIC CAR" when they refer to a Camaro!! 

[Chris Bamford]

I own one car with heavy "patina", every flake, scrape, tear and hole of it earned honestly over the years, and another that went thru that sort of a phase and has since been tarted up. My cars the way I like them (or are moving towards that state) and the reactions of others are fun to observe but not my motivation.

 

1924 Model T Speedster: assembled from a big pile of somebody's left-overs in the early '90s and modified/improved from time to time since.  There was a phase from 2003 to 2010 when it was a stripped-down "barnyard cruiser", single seat, bare bones, and looking at first glance like it had been that way for decades. I drove it regularly over that period and got lots of thumbs up and positive comments, and, remarkably, not a single pull-over-please from our local constabulary. It's my avatar car and a favourite for long-distance touring.  Here's an example how the general public felt about it vs the T street rod on the right (the pallet to the side held all the supplies one needed for a day at the track — lift it off for racing, put it back on for the drive home):

 

 

1947 Dodge sedan: Owned since 1992, repainted 1975, mechanicals stock but maintained, original engine rebuilt 2011/12, regular driver, outdoors year 'round and the closest thing I own to a truck. This too has been a good long distance car. We've driven this car through three provinces, two territories and 35 states, been to Hershey, Pikes Peak, the Atlantic, the Gulf of Mexico,  the Pacific, and Coast #4, up the ice roads to Tuktoyaktuk NWT on the Beaufort Sea, the furthest north once can drive in mainland Canada.  I'm pretty sure none of these wonderful adventures would have occurred had this car had been a cherished original or nicely restored.

 

Car people tend to get the appeal and the general reaction is "right on — cool car", the general public not so much where a common sentiment is "sure going to be nice when you fix it up" or "why would you ruin such a nice car driving it in winter??"  In fairness, my car club friends tend to be nice folks, so many might hide their true thoughts until I'm out of earshot.

 

Cosmetically, the Dodge is not nearly as nice as it appears in the photos. The interior is as bad as you'd expect but fortunately no rodent damage. Driver's floor is rusted through, along with many of the lower edges. Chrome and paint were already shot 25 years ago (and that's the good thing about Patina — if you actually like the look, then the move you drive it and park it outside and drill holes for the roof racks, the better it looks. Try that with yer Pebble Beach pretties!)

 

To those interested, I explain this car was never worth "restoring" not even when I bought it. So I am using it up, wringing every last bit of fun and utility out of the old heap until there just isn't enough left to drive more-or-less safely.  Not much different than the many comments we read here about cars too far gone to restore so they continue to rot in the back 40. Mine rots in the driveway but pays regular dividends of utility and enjoyment.

 

It's not for everyone, and my other oldies aren't like this but for me, this car, in this condition, with this philosophy, is exactly right.

 

Besides, what does the general public know anyway?  The other day at a stoplight a pedestrian came over to say "wow, great car! You did an awesome job on it — congratulations!"

 

 

I don't do a lot of car shows with any vehicle, but this is a fun example of the appeal of two nominally similar Dodges:

 

[Marty Roth]

1 hour ago, knee-action said:

When I was in high school, I dated a girl named Patina Martin.

 

Did Patina hopefully display moderate wear from extended careful loving usage,

or symptoms of abuse and neglect?

[SC38dls]

Is thin spots of paint patina? 

Or is only rust patina? 

I have original paint on my 38 Studebaker with one front fender showing primer paint where the black has worn off but no rust. So is that patina or worn paint? Does it matter? Not to me, it’s just a fun machine to drive as my every day driver. 

Rust is a problem I think needs to be fixed before it causes real problems. Either way have fun

dave s 

[Matt Harwood]

1 hour ago, Chris Bamford said:

I don't do a lot of car shows with any vehicle, but this is a fun example of the appeal of two nominally similar Dodges:

 

 

Perfect example of imperfection being more interesting. It's very hard for people in this hobby to break away from the "must be perfect" mindset, but I see this at every show I attend. Shiny cars are boring. They have no stories to tell. A car with some use on it, some bumps and bruises--that car has history! It's going to take a long, long time for that mindset to change, but I see more and more cars like this with people who love owning them, and that's very promising. Perfect isn't the only "correct" state for a car to be in.

[Matt Harwood]

4 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Is thin spots of paint patina? 

Or is only rust patina? 

I have original paint on my 38 Studebaker with one front fender showing primer paint where the black has worn off but no rust. So is that patina or worn paint? Does it matter? Not to me, it’s just a fun machine to drive as my every day driver. 

Rust is a problem I think needs to be fixed before it causes real problems. Either way have fun

dave s 

 

I think there's an important distinction between rust and rot. Look at Don's '34 Chevy coupe up at the top of this page--plenty of rust on the fenders, but I don't find that objectionable. it's harmless, on the surface, and not creating holes or structural issues. It's just there. And given how old cars are typically used, it will never, ever get any worse even if you leave it untreated indefinitely. Rust that hasn't compromised the panel is perfectly OK with me and I usually would choose to leave it alone.

 

Same with thin spots in the paint--that's love personified. Someone polished that car so often they polished the paint right off. I'd call that the "right" kind of patina.

[knee-action]

54 minutes ago, Marty Roth said:

 

Did Patina hopefully display moderate wear from extended careful loving usage,

or symptoms of abuse and neglect?

 

Extended careful loving usage. Actually, Pat and I just celebrated our 53rd wedding anniversary. She still thinks I'm nuts. .