John_Mereness Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On 1/2/2020 at 2:05 PM, SparkEE said: There’s an interesting car in the Dayton Packard museum that exemplifies what you’ve said about the depression era. I’ve forgotten the details and don’t have the info with me, but the wealthy owner purchased the car in a subdued grey and with bright work painted black. I found it striking, but didn’t read its history until after I’d left the museum. It’s on the lift in the background of the attached picture. It was said said that the color scheme (bumpers, headlights, radiator, etc. painted black) was so unusual in 1933 that the car drew lots of attention - quite the opposite of the owners intent. Charles Sawyer - local Cincinnati car and fellow who owned was very politically geared. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_W._Sawyer His son donated the car to the Museum. It has had paint some work over time, but was always been grey/black and a black-out/de-chromed car. It had worn/dirty 60's Mercedes Benz carpet in it and I replaced with grey Wilton wool, though never had them bound. I also put a manual choke on it as automatic choke parts were missing - one of their best starting 33's as a result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclebert Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Well, I was talking to my brother last night and we have both decided it is time to get a Packard and this one seemed like the right choice. We discussed it for an hour and came to the conclusion it would be a really great buy at $60,000. I told him I would send in a deposit so we could phone bid. Well Mecum wants 20% down for your highest phone bid and say they will return the money in thirty days. So I said "screw it"I am not going to all that trouble for a car I would more than happily pay $60,000 for because it will never go for that price. I strangely found myself routing for the price to go higher when it got hung up at $48,000 today, not wanting to make the call to my brother that we didn't get it for the agreed upon price because of my sloth like behavior. It sold for $56,000. The good news for future buyers of these cars is that prices are definitely headed downward which is why I thought that there was a possibility this one would go for that price based on exhaustive research of all auctions selling Packards for the last five years. The bad news was the call I had to make to my brother. Who woulda thunk? Great driver! It seems that the Classic Cars are going the way of brownwood furniture. I just found this post and had to join to give the update. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, unclebert said: Well, I was talking to my brother last night and we have both decided it is time to get a Packard and this one seemed like the right choice. We discussed it for an hour and came to the conclusion it would be a really great buy at $60,000. I told him I would send in a deposit so we could phone bid. Well Mecum wants 20% down for your highest phone bid and say they will return the money in thirty days. So I said "screw it"I am not going to all that trouble for a car I would more than happily pay $60,000 for because it will never go for that price. I strangely found myself routing for the price to go higher when it got hung up at $48,000 today, not wanting to make the call to my brother that we didn't get it for the agreed upon price because of my sloth like behavior. It sold for $56,000. The good news for future buyers of these cars is that prices are definitely headed downward which is why I thought that there was a possibility this one would go for that price based on exhaustive research of all auctions selling Packards for the last five years. The bad news was the call I had to make to my brother. Who woulda thunk? Great driver! It seems that the Classic Cars are going the way of brownwood furniture. I just found this post and had to join to give the update. You do understand why Mecum would want some money down for a phone bidder they don't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 That's a hell of a car for $56,000. At that price, who cares if it's fake or what color it is? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclebert Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 "That's a hell of a car for $56,000. At that price, who cares if it's fake or what color it is?" Or if it has an engine or doors....just throw it on the front lawn and start parting it out and double your money! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel boeve Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, unclebert said: "That's a hell of a car for $56,000. At that price, who cares if it's fake or what color it is?" Or if it has an engine or doors....just throw it on the front lawn and start parting it out and double your money! If this car sold for 56.000 $ i don't know anymore .Its getting time to pack my suitcases , rake some $$ together and come over to the US . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 It seems that the Classic Cars are going the way of brownwood furniture. I just found this post and had to join to give the update. if I was youur brother, Ild cut you out of the will..........................! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I think this was a combination of an older restoration that was tired, in unfortunate colors, at the wrong auction, rather than a true indicator that Classic cars are going in the toilet. Perspective is everything. A Lincoln touring sold for less than that, at the same auction. People were there to buy 60K to 80K Mustang fastbacks and resto-mods (and they were paying big bucks for them), not Classic cars. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that both the Packard and the Lincoln went to dealers, and you'll see them detailed and marked up 50% to 100% and advertised soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, trimacar said: I think this was a combination of an older restoration that was tired, in unfortunate colors, at the wrong auction, rather than a true indicator that Classic cars are going in the toilet. Perspective is everything. A Lincoln touring sold for less than that, at the same auction. People were there to buy 60K to 80K Mustang fastbacks and resto-mods (and they were paying big bucks for them), not Classic cars. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that both the Packard and the Lincoln went to dealers, and you'll see them detailed and marked up 50% to 100% and advertised soon. 100% agree. One sale does not set the market, either on the high or the low side. However, I might also point out that if these cars ended up at this particular auction, that surely meant the auctions where they did belong wouldn't touch them. But you're not wrong that we will see these cars again marked up to market-appropriate prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) Now if I had just sold that Cord I could have played a bit. Worst part is if the guy had just listed it for sale at 50G firm it would have sold in a day maybe even 60G and he would have walked away with alot more money. Guys keep running these through auction only to walk away with less than if they just had a conventional sale when all the checks have been cut and they see theirs is much smaller than it should be. I'm not much of an auction guy on things like cars. I can guarantee if I had made arrangements or actually even had the resources this car would have went much higher so it would have been a waste of time. The good thing is I have been looking for a Packard like this , so when I find one again, I'll whip out this results and tell the seller look the bottom is falling out. Sell it right now or you will lose even more. I bet these cars ended up here because it was somewhat local. Judging by the cars and the condition, the estate or guy selling had alot of money. Probably enough these were incidental and they were just liquidating them as a small portion of an estate and just needing them gone to settle it. We did the same with much lesser newer vehicles from my Mom's estate because there comes a time when you just need to settle things. especially dealing with several heirs where it's fragmented up enough that it doesn't really work out to alot of money, especially when paying lawyers fees all along that eat up funds fast. Edited January 10, 2020 by auburnseeker (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 No, Randy, auctions are magical places where all the cars are perfect and they always bring record-breaking prices which make the sellers rich. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md murray Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Was this a better buy than that green 902 coupe roadster that sold @ Rm's Guyton sale for $70,000 last spring? Just a standard but at least it was all documented and verified. https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0043-1932-packard-eight-coupe-roadster/750653 This was also the same sort of thing - another older restoration https://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/60298/1931-packard-model-840 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Maybe it's the new bench mark. I can only hope as a buyer. Makes it seem like if I sell my Cord and add a few bucks I could be a Packard man if the Auburn thing doesn't work out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
58L-Y8 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 As long as we're stating our color preferences, I'd do the fenders in dark gray, the carpet in a cordovan, change to black wall tires. Eventually re-do the top in medium gray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I'd drive the wheels off it just like it is. with a big old smile Could you improve upon it, I'm sure, but instant enjoyment isn't bad either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, md murray said: Was this a better buy than that green 902 coupe roadster that sold @ Rm's Guyton sale for $70,000 last spring? Just a standard but at least it was all documented and verified. https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0043-1932-packard-eight-coupe-roadster/750653 I would argue that the '31 dual cowl was a far better buy. Even though '32 is arguably a more desirable year, the '31 was a Super 8 vs. a Standard 8, and the extra 64 cubic inches in the engine does make a significant difference in performance. There seems to be a pretty firm ceiling on Standard 8 values (barring unusual coachwork or exceptional histories). As David C. wisely pointed out, someone will undoubtedly fluff the dual cowl phaeton and it'll show up with a $140-160,000 price tag at an auction next summer, even though we all know for certain that it's a rebody at this point... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I don't know Matt. A 32 Coupe Roadster vs a 31 Dual Cowl. Are we sure the 31 is a real Dual Cowl? Cause if we aren't, then I'm going with the 32, even without the big motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 So, from what I'm reading the green '31 Chrysler dual cowl listed on "West Coast Classics" web site @ 92.5K is NOT a good deal. They tout her as a 1971 national champion. and show the badge, but she has "aged" quite a bit since then. Kind of like the Packard. Green Packard, green Chrysler, oh whatever shall I do..................... Mike in Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 25 minutes ago, alsancle said: I don't know Matt. A 32 Coupe Roadster vs a 31 Dual Cowl. Are we sure the 31 is a real Dual Cowl? Cause if we aren't, then I'm going with the 32, even without the big motor. I think we can be certain that after selling for $56,000, the Packard is NOT a real dual-cowl. But for that money I'd still much rather have a well-done Super 8 dual-cowl phaeton rebody over a garden-variety Standard 8 coupe/roadster. At 96% of the events, if you show up in that dual cowl phaeton you're The Man--nobody's checking body provenance and a big series Packard will always be a joy to drive. I don't even think I want to attend events where having a well-done rebody is a barrier to entry. I understand why it's important, but I also think it's esoteric navel-gazing of the highest order that should only separate the great cars from the greatest cars, not relatively common stuff (even a Packard dual cowl phaeton) from other relatively common stuff. 13 minutes ago, FLYER15015 said: So, from what I'm reading the green '31 Chrysler dual cowl listed on "West Coast Classics" web site @ 92.5K is NOT a good deal. They tout her as a 1971 national champion. and show the badge, but she has "aged" quite a bit since then. Kind of like the Packard. Green Packard, green Chrysler, oh whatever shall I do..................... Mike in Colorado The Chrysler phaeton is a CD8, not an Imperial. Not a Full Classic. More like a 60-series Buick than a big Packard. That said, I do think the CD8 is in the top 5 prettiest cars built in the '30s and they have delightful road manners. Nevertheless, I struggled for nearly two years to sell this gorgeous CD8 roadster and it finally brought about $70,000. Not in the same league as the big cars, and I'm OK with that. I do, however, think this Packard sale is more evidence that they're way out of line with that $92,000 asking price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Matt, I agree that 92+ is WAY out of line for THAT car, particularly in that she's not an Imperial. However, using this one as a comparison it sure makes the Packard attractive doesn't it ? I looked long and hard at your roadster, but the color killed it for me. Had she been two toned red, or green , or blue, who knows................ She looked like a well sorted car though. Just not a lot of "presence". My opinion only, and what do I know ? Not a lot, according to other folks. Mike in Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 The Packard touring for that price will make the new owner happy. Scary thought.........it gets changed up a bit, and gets sold on the market as “my grandfathers car” that was in the family for years. It won’t be see an auction again, too much money to make in the world of more money than brains........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Yikes, and I though someone got the Auburn Boattail for free. You could basically re-restore the entire car and still come out fine - another free car. By the way, I could have put a near free $100,000 something on the car and sold it in a day via just calling friends (and with some minor upgrading of tires, carpets, detailing done even better). Hate to say it, but I think the auction company just does not have the right audience for these kinds of cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/10/2020 at 9:36 AM, Matt Harwood said: that surely meant the auctions where they did belong wouldn't touch them. Not necessarily, but if they had attempted contacting some of the auction houses that more specialize in 30's cars, they would have been told the cars needed professionally detailed (like extensively detailed at a several thousand dollar cost per car), a trip to the mechanic, and ... - some people are just not able to pull this off. And there are a lot of people that just do not do their homework. Sometimes, the stuff just has to go away too - estates can be messy. I also see Mecum filling the gap in being able to effectively offer 30's cars (the gap being only X slots available via the other companies and selectivity via those gaps), but their non 60's and muscle car audience is still in development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, John_Mereness said: Yikes, and I though someone got the Auburn Boattail for free. You could basically re-restore the entire car and still come out fine - another free car. By the way, I could have put a near free $100,000 something on the car and sold it in a day via just calling friends (and with some minor upgrading of tires, carpets, detailing done even better). Hate to say it, but I think the auction company just does not have the right audience for these kinds of cars. My dad and I were talking about this car at breakfast. He bought is first 851 back in 1954 and has had a bunch of them. His comment was basically "Who would want a RHD car in the U.S.?". I agree that the RHD was probably worth a 150k deduction. You can convert it but the deduction won't go away. So... 400K + 150K for LHD, + 100K for original data plates, + 100k for better condition, we are back up to 750k which is market for a real & decent car. You are only gonna get 800k plus for a very nice car with original plates, engine, wood, history and good colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 at 400k, I would prefer the deduction and the rhd. to each his own.......... some of us think internationally. I have a rhd model A and enjoy it immensely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I have a buddy with some pretty cool stuff. The RHD/LHD doesn't even factor in to his thought process. For cars that were only made RHD it doesn't matter, Isotta, Hispano, etc, but he doesn't even mind for the ones that you can get either way. Pays no attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 I think Mecum does a really good job and they are not afraid to take earlier cars, but earlier cars sort of get lost in their sea and the crowd is really not pre-WWII geared. Also, you cannot dump "undetailed - green" cars out at Auction, rush them, or ... without taking a discount. Sure, certain colors, RHD, and ... cause discounts, as well as poor presentation and .... I think the problem showed itself this week. Basically, If people are looking for 30's Convertible car prices to plummet, they will probably be disappointed (sure. they may drop a little, but they still are going to be expensive) as the bulk will just sit in garages or trade hands privately /quietly verses becoming available - the stuff cost a premium in the 1950's and still does today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) I punched onto the inflation converter on google the 30K-ish we spent restoring the 1931 Cadillac in 1977 = $127,330.69 See, things were not cheap back then either Edited January 12, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) For those speculating - yes, it was believed an original dual cowl Packard - it just was a lot of green paint and interior, older restored, suffered humidity from Florida storage, and was poorly presented in fact it needed a good expensive detailing/clean-up - ALL MATCHED TO THE RIGHT BUYERS NOT BEING PRESENT. If you do the math though, you could have bought, re-restored it cosmetically, and probably still been on borderline of OK via costs - a very good deal. I made a comment about a Cord L-29 going low a couple years ago - reply was "that is what it was worth if you do the math to get it to what it should be and you may still loose money." Edited January 12, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 hours ago, alsancle said: I have a buddy with some pretty cool stuff. The RHD/LHD doesn't even factor in to his thought process. For cars that were only made RHD it doesn't matter, Isotta, Hispano, etc, but he doesn't even mind for the ones that you can get either way. Pays no attention. I don't care about rebodies or even Duesenbergs assembled from the parts of other Duesenbergs, but RHD when LHD is available is usually a deal-breaker for me. I've driven plenty of RHD cars and they're not strange after about 10 minutes, but I get tired of constantly getting in the wrong side of the car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: I don't care about rebodies or even Duesenbergs assembled from the parts of other Duesenbergs, but RHD when LHD is available is usually a deal-breaker for me. I've driven plenty of RHD cars and they're not strange after about 10 minutes, but I get tired of constantly getting in the wrong side of the car. Probably 50-75% of the guys feel this way, which is why there is such a steep discount. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 27 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: I don't care about rebodies or even Duesenbergs assembled from the parts of other Duesenbergs, but RHD when LHD is available is usually a deal-breaker for me. I've driven plenty of RHD cars and they're not strange after about 10 minutes, but I get tired of constantly getting in the wrong side of the car. Well, that's better than jumping in the back seat of a four door vehicle and wondering who stole the damn steering wheel.....not that I've ever done that, of course..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Now if i can find a RHD car I might finally be able to afford an open Auburn. Thanks for hte words of encouragement. So if that green Packard had been RHD, it would have traded in the mid 40's or lower. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: Now if i can find a RHD car I might finally be able to afford an open Auburn. Thanks for hte words of encouragement. So if that green Packard had been RHD, it would have traded in the mid 40's or lower. Probably not, but would carry quite the stigma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 send your weary, downtroddin and rhd my way- Ill takem all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Now it's being sold on BaT. Bid price on last day is $65. A LOT of car for that kind of money. However, as Ed pointed out several posts ago, provenance provenance provenance. Until its history is revealed, it will NOT sell for big money. Yes, the green color will hold it back, too, but a good set of black tires will tone that paint down considerably and make it much more appealing. I would NEVER spend a ton of money restoring a car without provenance, but I certainly would consider this car at the right price and just drive it as is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 hours ago, West Peterson said: Now it's being sold on BaT. Bid price on last day is $65. A LOT of car for that kind of money. However, as Ed pointed out several posts ago, provenance provenance provenance. Until its history is revealed, it will NOT sell for big money. Yes, the green color will hold it back, too, but a good set of black tires will tone that paint down considerably and make it much more appealing. I would NEVER spend a ton of money restoring a car without provenance, but I certainly would consider this car at the right price and just drive it as is. Agreed. Although I always worry about having a stories car and it being mixed up in peoples minds with the real cars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 There is that... However, if you don't have a large collection, that wouldn't be as much of a worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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