1931 Packard 840 Dual Cowl Sport Phaeton

[1950panhead]

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-407830/1931-packard-840-dual-cowl-sport-phaeton/

Highlights

• 385 CI Straight Eight engine
• 3-speed manual transmission
• Pilot Ray driving lights
• Dual side mount spares with covers
• Luggage rack with trunk
• Green leather upholstery
• Tan soft top

[1950panhead]

[1950panhead]

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Edited December 29, 2019 by 1950panhead
x (see edit history)

[1950panhead]

[auburnseeker]

It's not an Auburn,  but I could really learn to like this.  I like the green with green interior color combo. 

Cracked paint on the cowl though means a repaint to be real nice but could be enjoyed as is.  So is it a #3 car as is?  I would have alot of fun polishing up all that chrome. Wonder what it will really sell for? 

[FLYER15015]

But then you would have to join the ACDP club.

[alsancle]

There is a decent premium for the second cowl and probably half were added after the fact.  Making sure it is an original dual cowl is critical.

[Matt Harwood]

Are the fenders supposed to match or not? That's one of those things that makes me go hmmmm...

[trimacar]

1 minute ago, Matt Harwood said:

Are the fenders supposed to match or not? That's one of those things that makes me go hmmmm...

Looks to me like they were made to contrast, not be the same color.  I'm just not a green car guy, it's too much for me, although the car itself is wonderful.

 

My Pierce originally had a green leather interior, I hated it...luckily I had an engine fire and the resultant mess made me repaint and reupholster car....in different colors...

[auburnseeker]

Too bad I didn't have some real cash.  Maybe the green color combo,  failing paint, wrong venue and minimal info, would be the right combo to real in a good bargain. 

I need to get to work on selling the Cord to free up some capital. 

[FLYER15015]

Were it mine, I would ditch the Pilot ray's and add a good set of Trippe Seniors, ditch the chrome sidemount covers altogether, because they make her look like a "rod", and invest in a full case of Semichrome polish.

Engine room looks decent, but it could stand a couple of days of cleanup and detailing. Nothing that could not be done at home.

You will end up with a 1-1.5K  driver..................

 

Just my  $ .02

 

Mike in Colorado

[Walt G]

We all have an opinion as to what we like.

I don't like the chrome plated wheels at all, if they were painted it would not make the plated tread cover on the spare tires seem so bold against the white wall tires.

To much green for me - needs black leather upholstery . The Pilot ray lights - a pair is one to many ( you have a par of headlamps, pair of parking lamps pair of spot lamps, and finally a pair of driving lights - yikes , turn them all on at once and you will melt the battery into a puddle under the car)
I am not fond of the basket weave stone guard that you see on just about every restored car from Pontiacs to Packards  - the shutters are vertical and functional, that vertical set of shutters makes the radiator shell shape seem to have presence as a styling feature, the basket weave acts like a wall and stops your eye from flowing to the styling/design of the rest of the car - it acts like a tombstone. I own a 1930 Packard and have a stone guard on it but it is all vertical thin bars and it compliments the styling, and is not in competition with the design.

If you don't like Pilot Ray lights nor Trippe lamps which everything has,  try to find/go with what Packard offered in its accessory catalog : Saf-de-Lites. They are a bit different but uniquely so and if Packard thought they looked good enough to recommend them , then perhaps they should be considered. Most people never heard of them or know what they are.

It helps to have access to the factory publications of the era of the car, fortunately I have collected for many decades and have most if not all of the Packard accessory catalogs, lists, bulletins from about 1922 to 1942 to refer to.

[Graham Man]

Green Leather was extremely popular in 1931.  Green leather was an option on all Graham open cars.

 

1931 Packard example

[Guest]

I like the green combination. But they seem to have missed the mark with the carpet match. It looks like the indoor/outdoor stuff you find on every porch at the Basura Blanca mobile home park. 

[Walt G]

I am not saying I don't like green, just that this car for me,  has to much of it - green everything : fenders, body, upholstery, engine color ( which is the correct color that Packard painted all their engines no matter what the body style) -  . in your period image note the fact the fenders on the car are painted black and the carpets are brown.

[Graham Man]

Walt,

   Working on a 1931 Graham Phaeton, I think it originally was Cats Eye Grey (medium grey), Forest Green belt line, Forest Green Fenders and Green leather.  Nice looking combination.  I agree the Packard seems a little heavy on the green, most likely not a factory color combination?  I was surprised to find out green leather was popular in 1931.  I assumed tan and black were normal.  I am not a Packard expert but the pleats in the seats do not look 1931, most of the big cars had the smooth seats in 1931 from my limited experience (see picture I attached in the last post).

[Matt Harwood]

18 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

I agree the Packard seems a little heavy on the green, most likely not a factory color combination? 

 

Bystander: That's not a factory color combination, is it?

Every single owner of a weird-colored car: Well, you know the factory would have painted it any color the buyer wanted, so...

[edinmass]

Does everyone here realize that that is the most replicated body in the history of car collecting? I have no idea as to the history or provenance of this car..................hopefully someone who buys it has an expert inspect it first. 

[FLYER15015]

1 hour ago, Graham Man said:

Walt,

   Working on a 1931 Graham Phaeton, I think it originally was Cats Eye Grey (medium grey), Forest Green belt line, Forest Green Fenders and Green leather.  Nice looking combination.  I agree the Packard seems a little heavy on the green, most likely not a factory color combination?  I was surprised to find out green leather was popular in 1931.  I assumed tan and black were normal.  I am not a Packard expert but the pleats in the seats do not look 1931, most of the big cars had the smooth seats in 1931 from my limited experience (see picture I attached in the last post).

Graham,

My '31 Imperial has pleated seats, which were redone in 1980 replicating the original, However my'40 Buick has very plain original seats.

Don't know when the "change over " happened.

[Walt G]

To the best of my knowledge the Buick open body style cars in 1940 ( Special, Century, Roadmaster at least) had flat panel , plain leather seats with no pleats. In 1930 Packard on their open touring cars still had pleats on the front and rear seats with plain unpleated leather on the jump seats. I will check the original period material I have for both and post here but it may take a few days to get back to this as I am in the middle of some research for several stories I have underway that then have to be written

[Matt Harwood]

I don't think there was ever any hard and fast rule about where pleats were used or when. I think it was purely a stylistic choice on the part of interior designers. For instance, the front seats of a '41 Cadillac convertible are pleated, but the back seat is not. The leather front seat of my '41 Buick is pleated, but the rear seat is plain cloth. It surely varied from manufacturer to manufacturer, between body styles, open vs. closed car, and year to year. It seems like pleats started to fall out of favor in the mid- to late-30s, which might explain why hot-rodders and customizers liked them in the '50s--they had all but disappeared from most OEM interiors. 

 

No rule, just fashion.

[Graham Man]

OK so we can all agree this is a beautiful Packard, slightly mistreated over the years as far as originality, that could easily be sold for under 100K.  Sounds like the rules are changing.  And to think, only a few weeks ago you could get a banana taped to the wall for that kind of money...

 

[mercer09]

well, if it were mine, which it wont be- black fenders and aprons and black carpet would do the trick..............

 

 

 

in your period image note the fact the fenders on the car are painted black and the carpets are brown.

 

I am guessing it also sells for 110k with fees. very desirable car, if it is correct.

[Matt Harwood]

If it sells for $110K, it's not correct.

 

As I mentioned in the Duesenberg thread, I don't care if it's a fake. I'd love to have it and I'd drive the hell out of it. I agree with painting the fenders black since they look weird anyway, and I think brown carpets would work well. I like green cars, although they're practically sales-proof.

[mercer09]

well Matt, they are calling for 100-150. but the car does have a good bit of wear. 840 is a top of the line model........... who knows. time will tell.

[alsancle]

48 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

well Matt, they are calling for 100-150. but the car does have a good bit of wear. 840 is a top of the line model........... who knows. time will tell.

 

So is the 845 the catalog custom chassis?  I always thought that was the top chassis in 31.

[mercer09]

so Al, an 840 is weak?

 

 

lol

[JACK M]

20 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Basura Blanca mobile home park. 

 

I lived there once. They stole my hub caps.

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, mercer09 said:

so Al, an 840 is weak?

 

 

lol

 

Of course not,  sorry!   I've been hanging out with cousin Eddy too much.

 

I was hoping a Packard guru could explain the designations.   A 140 inch wheelbase is certainly not short,  and I'm gonna assume that was the top wheelbase for the production bodies,  while maybe the 145 was reserved for the catalog and full customs?

[edinmass]

The factory Packard green leather was no where near that shade....or as shiny.....I have a factory upholstery sample with leather selections. I think with some slight changes and tlc it could be a very stunning car. Paint the fenders and splash aprons black, new carpet and top. Detail the hell out of it.  The price of these cars has been soft for a while, it’s possible it could be real and sell for the 125-150 now.

Edited January 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[WDS]

Both the 840 and 845 Packards for the 1931 season were designated DeLuxe Eights.The 840's and 845's were both fitted with Packard bodies and custom bodies.The Packard bodies mounted on the 845 chassis were the Seven Passenger Sedan and Seven Passenger Sedan Limousine as this longer wheelbase provided for more body space for clients wanting more interior space or if the chassis was to be used as a service car like an ambulance.The other Packard bodies were on the 840 chassis.In the 7th Series Packards of 1930,there were two 745 Deluxe Eight Chassis,the 745 which had the additional length in the hood or bonnet and the 745C which had the additional length in the body space.With the 8th Series cars,Packard was trying to simplify the line so to speak.The 745C or 745 Custom chassis was basically for custom bodies or perhaps a service car body.The 840 Phaeton in this discussion was the largest Packard bodied phaeton in the 8th Series line.

 

[John_Mereness]

On 12/30/2019 at 5:34 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

Bystander: That's not a factory color combination, is it?

Every single owner of a weird-colored car: Well, you know the factory would have painted it any color the buyer wanted, so...

I would say a very appropriate color combination, though perhaps colors are a little more vibrant than they would have been new - color tastes of 30's are not what they are today.

 

As to "any color you want" - yeah, but not all that often and most people really did not have the extra pocket change or were the manufacturers too excited. 

 

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:50 PM, 1950panhead said:

I like the color combination (all be it I would never have painted it green to begin with).  My opinion is that the whitewalls are distracting on the chrome wire wheels - just too much bling.  

 

On the green topic though:  I recently asked Ed to keep an eye open for a certain 1931 Pierce Arrow Club Sedan and restored in 80's in green (it was not a super well restored car, but it was very solid and prior to restoration and ....). 

[John_Mereness]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:50 PM, 1950panhead said:

x

Just too much green going on in interior - the edge and detail trim on the woodgrained door panels would be black (not green).  And, I would have another color carpet in this car so fast that it would make your head spin. 

[John_Mereness]

Did I ever mention the 1931 Packard 833 Sport Phaeton I finished restoring back in the 90's - it was in an estate/bankruptcy I handled ?  Maroon with Red fenders, Maroon wooden wheels, and Black interior/top/trunk, plus J& N Tonneau windshield.   The car had been painted, but I had to do top/interior upholstery and was assembled with all the rusty stuff from the junk drawer of the painters workbench - I probably replaced every bolt, nut washer, and screw on the car, plus a billion other projects were needed on it (took a couple months to complete).

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Did I ever mention the 1931 Packard 833 Sport Phaeton I finished restoring back in the 90's - it was in an estate/bankruptcy I handled ?  Maroon with Red fenders, Maroon wooden wheels, and Black interior/top/trunk, plus J& N Tonneau windshield.   The car had been painted, but I had to do top/interior upholstery and was assembled with all the rusty stuff from the junk drawer of the painters workbench - I probably replaced every bolt, nut washer, and screw on the car, plus a billion other projects were needed on it (took a couple months to complete).

 

Post a picture please John!

 

On the colors,  the Dietrich bodied Royale that was in Auto Body magazine's Cars of Park Avenue article was "Tomato Red" and has a red chassis with sand colored accents.   Not a bright red but a red.

 

There were some weird colors,  but very few.  Most rich people were trying to hide.

[Walt G]

17 minutes ago, alsancle said:

There were some weird colors,  but very few.  Most rich people were trying to hide.

A.J. How true those words are. I have stated here before and elsewhere. People did not have 50 cents per day for a meal and to see an expensive car drive by ( that was the same cost as a really decent house in an upper class neighborhood) would indeed be upsetting . Wealthier people then did not flaunt their $ like we have people today doing. They respected that there was rough times financially going on and did not know how long they would last.

I really do not think many car collectors today realize how much cars were as they do not put them in perspective in relation to what other things cost during the great depression. If you take the time to do so , it will make you perhaps more fully appreciate that any of these cars were made and sold.

I often speak about local history as I have been the historian for the village I reside in for several decades - people marvel how "cheap" things were - I explain that things weren't cheap if you think about how a new car in the 1950s of a decent size was $1,200 and a new Subaru is now $25,000 for something less then half the size. I usually get a blank stare for a few seconds . I may go on to point out that a custom body on a car from 1931 would cost $3,000 , just for the body, the chassis would be another $1,000 or most likely more. It cost more then a house . Most people do not take things into perspective.

[Graham Man]

I live right along the route between Chicago and Minneapolis, the heart of Moonshine production during prohibition.  I was driving my 1929 Graham-Paige with white wall tires and stopped at this small town gas station.  There was a group of old farmers (in their 80s, 20 years ago) that gathered to see the Graham-Paige.  They told me the only time a car like that showed up in town is when someone missed their shipment of moonshine to Chicago.  Needless to say one visit took care of any problems for a while.

 

Second story is from 1951, my Uncle was driving my 1933 Graham, he had gotten a teaching job in Madison WI, just out of collage and was renting a room from an elderly lady.  When she saw the Graham she said there was no way she was going to have that "Gangster Wagon" parked in front of her house.  He could park it in the alley or find a new place to stay.

 

When we understand the history of public opinion, it is easier to understand the motivation.  

 

 

 

[SparkEE]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:28 AM, Walt G said:

A.J. How true those words are. I have stated here before and elsewhere. People did not have 50 cents per day for a meal and to see an expensive car drive by ( that was the same cost as a really decent house in an upper class neighborhood) would indeed be upsetting . Wealthier people then did not flaunt their $ like we have people today doing. They respected that there was rough times financially going on and did not know how long they would last.

I really do not think many car collectors today realize how much cars were as they do not put them in perspective in relation to what other things cost during the great depression. If you take the time to do so , it will make you perhaps more fully appreciate that any of these cars were made and sold.

I often speak about local history as I have been the historian for the village I reside in for several decades - people marvel how "cheap" things were - I explain that things weren't cheap if you think about how a new car in the 1950s of a decent size was $1,200 and a new Subaru is now $25,000 for something less then half the size. I usually get a blank stare for a few seconds . I may go on to point out that a custom body on a car from 1931 would cost $3,000 , just for the body, the chassis would be another $1,000 or most likely more. It cost more then a house . Most people do not take things into perspective.

There’s an interesting car in the Dayton Packard museum that exemplifies what you’ve said about the depression era.  I’ve forgotten the details and don’t have the info with me, but the wealthy owner purchased the car in a subdued grey and with bright work painted black.  

 

I found it striking, but didn’t read its history until after I’d left the museum.  It’s on the lift in the background of the attached picture. 

 

It was said said that the color scheme (bumpers, headlights, radiator, etc. painted black) was so unusual in 1933 that the car drew lots of attention - quite the opposite of the owners intent.

[Graham Man]

I have been researching Graham-Paige color combinations from 1928 - 1935.  In 1930-1932 every Graham-Paige car had black paint as an option for wheel color wood, wire, and disk.  When was the last time you saw any 1930-32 car with black wheels?