Neglected Classics Selling @ Kissimmee

[md murray]

A handful of really cool Packards, an 851 speedster, L model Lincoln and a Duesenberg w/a new body all running with the monster trucks and hot rods @ Mecum next week. It's sad to see all the chrome on these cars covered with the same uniform level of surface corrosion and muck. They're all from the same collection- I guess if you've got the bucks to restore a garage full of these cars you can also afford to just let them sit and forget about them? I can't help but wonder how much other really great stuff must be out there just collecting dust and rust.

Edited December 27, 2019 by md murray (see edit history)

[padgett]

As time goes by most people's ability to restore is exceeded by their ability to store. Youth is wasted on the young.

[auburnseeker]

Here is a link as there are so many days and lots you will waste alot of time trying to find them. 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-405805/1934-packard-super-8-convertible-victoria/

[1912Staver]

Did anyone notice the 1948 Morgan has a Ford Pinto sohc engine ? No mention at all in the description.  Quit a change from a 1100 cc British Ford sidevalve. Looks like a tight fit.

 

Greg in Canada

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Here is a link as there are so many days and lots you will waste alot of time trying to find them. 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-405805/1934-packard-super-8-convertible-victoria/

 

You will note they very carefully avoid mentioning anything at all about the car's condition or mechanical fitness. "It's black, it's a Packard, it has lights, Packard was famous for good cars, and the interior is tan."

 

Caveat emptor...

[1937hd45]

I don't think this will impress the Mustang and Camaro buyers in the audience, however if you want something like this at may be a good place to buy. Bob 

[auburnseeker]

46 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

I don't think this will impress the Mustang and Camaro buyers in the audience, however if you want something like this at may be a good place to buy. Bob 

As long as one goes with eyes wide open and figures a comfortable cushion for making them roadworthy.  Still taking a gamble but most cars at auction are a gamble unless you know the previous owner and car well. 

[m-mman]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

You will note they very carefully avoid mentioning anything at all about the car's condition or mechanical fitness. "It's black, it's a Packard, it has lights, Packard was famous for good cars, and the interior is tan."

 

I was surprised to learn that many times the owner/consignor has not (or will not) write a description(!) 

 

The auction house then pays an automotive journalist to bang out some text. The text might be based on just the few facts the consignor gave to the auction house and maybe a couple of photos. Occasionally there is a telephone interview with the seller. I know some people who do this type of writing and all they can really honestly put into the description are some hard facts about the history of that marque, sometimes spiced with 'According to the consignor. . .  ' and 'The seller states. . . '

If you ever see those phrases, it is a real pig in a poke. 

 

A 3 year old car at a dealer auction might not need much description. The idiots who dont want to research or reveal the true full information about the car for sale deserve a very low bid. But of course the auction company wants the completed sale and a commission, so they will do whatever it takes to be profitable. No emotions in these situations, it is all about the deal. 

[edinmass]

If you want to know about a car for sale at an auction, the first question you ask is Which auction house, what location, and the date. Simply put, the best stuff goes to the best house.......IF THEY WILL TAKE IT. Tells you the whole story. The top three won’t take a middle of the road Classic if the venue is full.......and they MIGHT take it, if it goes no reserve and it’s over 100k. When you see lots of “cheaper” Classics at a sale, it’s usually because they sellers are good customers and are selling and buying multiple cars.

[alsancle]

Ed is correct.  Getting a car in to a Gooding or RM auction at Pebble, Scottsdale or Amelia requires a lot of factors.  Expensive car with an obtainable reserve are just the starters.  For these catalog sales the auction house writes the description with input from the consigned.  But they are very careful in what they say.  A buyer can know everything they need about the car by what they don’t say in the catalog.

[edinmass]

It’s interesting that the 851 RHD car looks like it’s a correct, real car from all the clues I see in the photos, yet the description is ridiculously lacking. This could be an example of someone with a correct, real car that doesn’t know any better trying to sell a car at a venue that is exactly the worst place they could go. While RHD hurts the car here, listing it in England, Australia, Ect......the car would do well. Probably a case of an estate being managed by someone who has no idea on how to sell a rather decent car. They didn’t even clean the car up for the photos.......tells you how auction companies really are.........just push it through.......the hell with actually trying to help out the sellers............great lesson here for EVERYONE............unless you have a car that’s worth seven figures........it’s just another number running through the sale. 

[alsancle]

The Auburn is listed in Randy's list as being owned by S. Vaughn in TX.    It will bring between 500 and 550k.    Speedsters are easy to value:

 

1.  It is listed in Randy Ema's master list of 35/36 speedsters start at 350/400k.

 

2. It has its original engine add 100k

 

3. It has is original data plates and hidden numbers add 100k

 

4. It has its original wood add 100k

 

5. Add or subtract 100k for condition

 

6.  Subtract 100k for RHD in this case.

 

7.  Subtract 100k for unknown ownership history.

 

Voila!

 

 

[alsancle]

Btw,   The 600 to 800 estimate means the car is for sale at 550.  

[alsancle]

Ed is going to get me banned from the forum,  but the car at this sale I would LOVE to get my hands on (besides the obvious multi million dollar Delehaye) is this W-30 442 Convertible.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-396963/1969-oldsmobile-442-w-30-convertible/

 

This thing ticks every box for me.   Special Engine, Color, 4 speed, rarity, condition, documentation, etc.

 

Estimate

$175,000 - $195,000

 

Highlights

• Two year no expense spared restoration completed in 2016 with 65 miles
• 121 W-30 convertibles built in 1969, 91 with 4-speed transmissions
• Original drivetrain
• Believed to be 71,238 miles
• Multiple award winner
• Oldsmobile calendar cover
• Featured on Spike TV's Powerblock show Muscle Car in 2013
• 2016 MCACN Concours Gold scoring 997/1000
• 1st place Muscle GM 7th annual 2017 Richard Petty-Ridgely Maryland car show
• Best of Class 2018 Oldsmobile Club of America Nationals scoring 997/1000
• Best of Class 2018 New Jersey Concourse d'Elegance 1964-1974
• 2018 MCACN Concourse Gold 994/1000 and Platinum award
• 2019 d'Elegance of America Red ribbon Lion award Class of 1969 reunion
• 2019 Hemmings Concours d'Elegance, Hemmings Muscle Machines award
• Rocket Report from Steve Minore
• Letter from the late Helen Earley
• Broadcast sheet

Promotionally, the company wanted you to know “this was not your father’s Oldsmobile,” and one option code defined that truth: W-30. This wonderful 1969 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 Convertible from the final year of the 1960s is one of those W-machines that Dr. Olds was heavily prescribing to possible muscle car buyers of that era. W-30 meant performance-enhancing changes to the already solid standard equipment on the 442 line, itself birthed from the exploding supercar marketplace back in 1965. The car offered here was designed to show off and live up to its reputation. Moreover, in this case, the two-year no-expense-spared restoration completed in 2016 has resulted in a spectacular appearance. Of the 121 W-30 convertibles built in 1969, 91 came with 4-speed transmissions, and this car retains its original drivetrain. This includes its hand-fitted, gold-painted 400 CI engine with forced-air under-bumper induction feeding its 4-barrel carburetor through twin tubes to the air cleaner. That mill, in turn, is backed by the 4-speed transmission that includes the 442 shift handle and the mandatory Anti-Spin rear axle. With 71,000 believed-original miles, the exterior is covered in deep blue with white hood graphics, 442 and W-30 identification, chrome exhaust trumpets, wheel-well brightwork, premium upper-body line chrome trim and a black soft top. Inside are headrest bucket seats, a center console, radio with auxiliary 8-track unit, podded dash design and burled wood-toned accenting. Coupled to the heavy-duty handling hardware are the SSI wheels and Firestone Wide Oval tires. If it looks familiar, it may be because this multiple-award winner has been on a calendar cover, featured on Spike TV's “Powerblock” show’s Muscle Car segment in 2013, a two-time MCACN Concours Gold winner in 2016 and 2018 (attaining to a best of 997/1,000 possible points and Platinum status), and the recipient of Best in Show at many other events. Taken as a whole, this 442 W-30 convertible is documented with its broadcast sheet, a letter from the Olds Historic curator Helen Earley, a Rocket Report from Steve Minore, and the car is packaged with the very best meds the good doctor could have ordered.

[alsancle]

The Duesenberg is a result of a partnership between Leo Gephart and Ted Billings in the 1970s.   Leo would find the tired old sedans and chassis and Ted would restore them with Derham Tourster bodies.   The bodies were exact copies made from Tony Pascucci's green original car (sold at Hershey a few years ago) that Ted had restored.  I worked in the shop as a teenager when the last of these cars were being built.

 

EDIT:   Johnny Pascucci sold his dad's original car for around 1.2 million to give you perspective on the estimate.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-405806/1932-duesenberg-model-j-tourster/

Estimate

$350,000 - $450,000

 

Highlights

• Coachwork in the style of a Derham Tourster by Ted Billings
• 420 CI Straight 8 engine
• 3-speed manual transmission
• Red exterior
• Tan convertible top
• Tan leather interior
• Stewart Warner tachometer
• Jaeger in-dash clock
• Altimeter
• 150 MPH speedometer
• In-dash brake adjustment lever with dry, rain, snow and ice settings
• Duesenberg Straight 8 Indianapolis firewall badge
• Polished side engine pipes
• Dual horns
• Duesenberg Model J decorative hood ornament
• Chrome wire wheels
• Wide Whitewall tires

By the time Errett Lobban Cord announced the extraordinary Duesenberg Model J, the company’s most valuable asset, Fred Duesenberg, was already a giant of the American automobile industry. The Model J took that reputation to new heights; at a time when Auburns sold for between $995 to $2,095, and Cord’s own L-29 peaked around $3,295, the Model J demanded more than $18,000 for openers and skyrocketed from there depending on customer specifications. The Model J was the most technically advanced car in America, and the most powerful by far. Its 265 HP was more than double that of its closest competitor, the 112 HP Chrysler Imperial 80. Its second-gear top speed of 90-plus MPH astonished even the most skeptical customers, who were also universally impressed with the Model J’s unwavering composure at speed. It was no surprise that the first bodies ordered by Duesenberg for the new Model J were designed and built by Derham Body Co. of Rosemont, Pennsylvania. Founded in 1887, Derham was unique, a family business purposely organized for utmost flexibility in meeting varying demands from private and corporate customers alike. Derham’s designs and coachwork so impressed E.L. Cord that he appointed family scion Phil Derham as head of Duesenberg’s Custom Coachwork Division. Derham Body Co. would eventually design and build more than 40 custom bodies for the Model J and SJ. This 1932 Model J featured coachwork in the style of a Derham Tourster by Ted Billings. Typical of Derham’s conservative yet elegant offerings, it impresses with red body and chassis paint, burgundy fenders, beltline and sills, a contrasting tan folding top and leather interior, and wide whitewalls on chromed wire wheels. The powerful 420 CI Duesenberg straight-8 with polished side-exhaust drives a 3-speed manual transmission, and the opulent cabin incorporates a 150 MPH speedometer, Stewart Warner tachometer, Jaeger clock, an altimeter, in-dash brake adjustment lever with dry, rain, snow and ice settings, and wind-down rear windscreen.

Contrary to the printed description, this vehicle was originally fitted with Derham Coachwork but today is fitted with a body built by Ted Billings in the style of a Derham Tourster.

Edited December 28, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

26 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Ed is going to get me banned from the forum,  but the car at this sale I would LOVE to get my hands on (besides the obvious multi million dollar Delehaye) is this W-30 442 Convertible.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-396963/1969-oldsmobile-442-w-30-convertible/

 

This thing ticks every box for me.   Special Engine, Color, 4 speed, rarity, condition, documentation, etc.

 

Estimate

175,000-195,000

 

 

 

AJ - The car also has associated roll up costs...........the divorce will cost much more than that.🤔

[alsancle]

Here is a picture of the Tourster I have that was taken outside the shop just when it was finished.

 

 

[edinmass]

39 minutes ago, alsancle said:

The Auburn is listed in Randy's list as being owned by S. Vaughn in TX.    It will bring between 500 and 550k.    Speedsters are easy to value:

 

1.  It is listed in Randy Ema's master list of 35/36 speedsters start at 350/400k.

 

2. It has its original engine add 100k

 

3. It has is original data plates and hidden numbers add 100k

 

4. It has its original wood add 100k

 

5. Add or subtract 100k for condition

 

6.  Subtract 100k for RHD in this case.

 

7.  Subtract 100k for unknown ownership history.

 

Voila!

 

 

 

 

My logic and math are similar...........since it’s on “the list” my observations seem to be reasonable.........absolutely the worst venue in the world to sell this car..............I would call it incompetent decision making at the least. Someone should post it on the ACD website to help the car go where it belongs.

 

 

 

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, alsancle said:

Here is a picture of the Tourster I have that was taken outside the shop just when it was finished.

 

 

 

Time to replace the fence.....it was old back then!

 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

 

Time to replace the fence.....it was old back then!

 

 

I did replace it.   The one that you are thinking of is only 20 years old.  The one in the picture was only about 10 years old when that photo was taken.

[1937hd45]

This is personal historic photo, the FIRST photo I ever took of a car at the 1961  Ridgefield HCCA Meet. I was 10 years old and the brownie camera was one I got with Triple S Blue Stamps, great days. Bob 

Edited December 28, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

The Duesenberg is a result of a partnership between Leo Gephart and Ted Billings in the 1970s.   Leo would find the tired old sedans and chassis and Ted would restore them with Derham Tourster bodies.   The bodies were exact copies made from Tony Pascucci's green original car (sold at Hershey a few years ago) that Ted had restored.  I worked in the shop as a teenager when the last of these cars were being built.

 

EDIT:   Johnny Pascucci sold his dad's original car for around 1.2 million to give you perspective on the estimate.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0120-405806/1932-duesenberg-model-j-tourster/

Estimate

$350,000 - $450,000

 

Highlights

• Coachwork in the style of a Derham Tourster by Ted Billings
• 420 CI Straight 8 engine
• 3-speed manual transmission
• Red exterior
• Tan convertible top
• Tan leather interior
• Stewart Warner tachometer
• Jaeger in-dash clock
• Altimeter
• 150 MPH speedometer
• In-dash brake adjustment lever with dry, rain, snow and ice settings
• Duesenberg Straight 8 Indianapolis firewall badge
• Polished side engine pipes
• Dual horns
• Duesenberg Model J decorative hood ornament
• Chrome wire wheels
• Wide Whitewall tires

By the time Errett Lobban Cord announced the extraordinary Duesenberg Model J, the company’s most valuable asset, Fred Duesenberg, was already a giant of the American automobile industry. The Model J took that reputation to new heights; at a time when Auburns sold for between $995 to $2,095, and Cord’s own L-29 peaked around $3,295, the Model J demanded more than $18,000 for openers and skyrocketed from there depending on customer specifications. The Model J was the most technically advanced car in America, and the most powerful by far. Its 265 HP was more than double that of its closest competitor, the 112 HP Chrysler Imperial 80. Its second-gear top speed of 90-plus MPH astonished even the most skeptical customers, who were also universally impressed with the Model J’s unwavering composure at speed. It was no surprise that the first bodies ordered by Duesenberg for the new Model J were designed and built by Derham Body Co. of Rosemont, Pennsylvania. Founded in 1887, Derham was unique, a family business purposely organized for utmost flexibility in meeting varying demands from private and corporate customers alike. Derham’s designs and coachwork so impressed E.L. Cord that he appointed family scion Phil Derham as head of Duesenberg’s Custom Coachwork Division. Derham Body Co. would eventually design and build more than 40 custom bodies for the Model J and SJ. This 1932 Model J featured coachwork in the style of a Derham Tourster by Ted Billings. Typical of Derham’s conservative yet elegant offerings, it impresses with red body and chassis paint, burgundy fenders, beltline and sills, a contrasting tan folding top and leather interior, and wide whitewalls on chromed wire wheels. The powerful 420 CI Duesenberg straight-8 with polished side-exhaust drives a 3-speed manual transmission, and the opulent cabin incorporates a 150 MPH speedometer, Stewart Warner tachometer, Jaeger clock, an altimeter, in-dash brake adjustment lever with dry, rain, snow and ice settings, and wind-down rear windscreen.

Contrary to the printed description, this vehicle was originally fitted with Derham Coachwork but today is fitted with a body built by Ted Billings in the style of a Derham Tourster.

 

This is why the hobby seems so silly to me sometimes. Looks like a Duesenberg? Check. Sounds like a Duesenberg? Check. Drives like a Duesenberg? Check. Mostly Duesenberg parts? Check. 99% of the people in the world will recognize it as a Duesenberg, including judges everywhere but A-C-D events and especially high-end concours? Check.

 

75% discount because it has a well-crafted body that is an exact replica of an original period-correct Duesenberg body? Oh hell yes! Where do I sign up?

 

As someone in the business, I guess I understand pedigrees ("understand" might be too strong--I recognize that they are important to people but the reasons are always fuzzy). As a hobbyist, I think they're completely crazy. That's a Duesenberg and nobody in the world would say otherwise. It will deliver the exact same ownership experience other than not being allowed at some of the bigger, more exclusive events. Oh boo-hoo. Would it be invited to Pebble if it had its original sedan coachwork? Unlikely. 

 

It's all an illusion, a shell game, one of those nesting dolls with another doll inside. The only reason most guys care about pedigrees is because they think the guy who buys it from him will care. And that guy only cares because he thinks the next guy will care. We never really get to the guy to whom it truly matters, only the worry about "protecting my investment" and thus insuring that future buyers will want it as much as you do and therefore will give you your money back. With that Duesenberg up there, the investment is far smaller, so there's no need to fret over protecting it with esoterics. It's vaporware, the same thing that makes that worthless rectangle of paper in your wallet able to be exchanged for $100 worth of real goods. Only the belief that there's value sustains it. Without that shared belief, what's left?

 

I don't know that I'll ever be able to scratch together $300-400,000 to buy a toy car, but if I can, I'll be scouring the world for the nicest rebodied, non-pedigreed Duesenberg I can find and then I'll drive the wheels off the stupid thing, grinning like a mental patient all the way, pedigrees and "matching numbers" be damned.

[edinmass]

Matt........as for me........I only want numbers matching correct stuff.........pure and correct. There is room for all cars and types of collecting. The value is in the real thing......and yes, most of us can’t afford it. 

[1937hd45]

"Real" stuff will always be more desirable, and hold a higher resale value. Many desirable cars are suspect and should be researched before buying. Stanley Steamers, 1932 Ford Roadsters, Bugatti GP cars and Duesenberg. to name a few.

 

 

Bob 

[trimacar]

45 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Matt........as for me........I only want numbers matching correct stuff.........pure and correct. There is room for all cars and types of collecting. The value is in the real thing......and yes, most of us can’t afford it. 

Ed and Matt, I understand both view points.

 

It's easy with a Duesenberg, they are so well documented that one knows exactly what each car is, whether it's "as built" or whether it's gone through changes during it's existence.

 

This is not the case with a LOT of other older cars, as such records aren't as thorough.  There are numerous cars out there that did not leave the factory as they are, and there are a lot of cars out there that left no factory at all, but where created out of raw materials in more modern times.  I know some of these cars, but out of respect to their creators no marques nor names will be mentioned.

 

After a while, numerous cars that have had changes become "real".  I once walked Hershey with a friend who is very well versed in early cars, and we'd walk by a grand horseless carriage and he'd say "yeah, the whole back section of that car was fabricated by Harrah's shop"  or "that car started out as a motor and a frame"...…..

 

The other interesting thing is "original" cars.  One has to realize what one is looking at, if one is looking at a 1910 "original" car.  That's 110 years ago.  A LOT of early cars that were restored in the 1950's, for example, and driven quite a bit, look like our perception of "original", when in fact it's not.  I looked at a 1910 Peerless touring in the museum in Sacramento that matches this description, one would swear it's "original" and "unrestored", when it fact it was a 50's refresh that was used on a LOT of tours.

 

It's a buyer beware market, if one is looking to protect investment.  If doing it for fun and not taking food out of anyone's mouth, then I say it doesn't matter.  Buy it, have fun with it, and if you sell it at a loss who cares....

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This is why the hobby seems so silly to me sometimes. Looks like a Duesenberg? Check. Sounds like a Duesenberg? Check. Drives like a Duesenberg? Check. Mostly Duesenberg parts? Check. 99% of the people in the world will recognize it as a Duesenberg, including judges everywhere but A-C-D events and especially high-end concours? Check.

 

Matt,   as you probably know more than anyone,  things are not always the way they seem from pictures.   I CANNOT speak to this particular car,  but I know that Tourster #1 was 99% Model J Duesenberg with a reproduction body while #10 was a real engine and 90% reproduction parts including the frame rails,  front axle and instruments.     Where this car falls on that scale I do not know.  

 

Also,  I would pay an extra 75k to 100k  for any Duesenberg that can be documented to have the SJ steel connecting rods over the duraluminum engine exploding originals.   All new rebuilds (say last 20 years or so) will have the steel rods,   but engines done earlier will be  a crap shoot.   Just not worth reving your Model J to 5k and having a rod blow through the block.

 

Btw,  this is the car that they were all modeled after.   I thought this was a steal when it sold at Hershey.    Haven't heard from Johnny in a while,  hope he is doing well.

 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

This is personal historic photo, the FIRST photo I ever took of a car at the 1961  Ridgefield HCCA Meet. I was 10 years old and the brownie camera was one I got with Triple S Blue Stamps, great days. Bob

 

Looks like Tony Pascucci's barrel side.  I think Johnny still has it.

[edinmass]

I was told Johnny sold all the cars.  The green car belongs to a friend......and where it went is hush, hush, top secret.

[edinmass]

As far as the fake/rebody/tribute/modified thing goes, once  you dirty your reputation, you can NEVER get it back. All my forty years of fixing, managing, flipping, and playing with cars.......I have NEVER serviced a car with a bad history, and that has made me much more in demand and valuable as an advisor, mechanic, manager, and free lance inspector. Once dirty.....always dirty. Took a lot of discipline to stay clean and true......and it paid off ten times better than the “dirty” world of cars. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[md murray]

Re-fabricated bodies certainly didn't seem to hurt the value of many of the Don C. Boulton cars sold at Bonham's Amelia sale last March! But I guess that's older stuff and a different animal altogether. 

[edinmass]

23 minutes ago, md murray said:

Re-fabricated bodies certainly didn't seem to hurt the value of many of the Don C. Boulton cars sold at Bonham's Amelia sale last March! But I guess that's older stuff and a different animal altogether. 

 

That’s not correct........Bolton had fabulous chassis that were assembled and put together as well as good stuff. Have a 1910 90 horse power car that’s documented.......I can sell it in fifteen minutes for retail big money......but then again, I can count them on two hands. ALL brass cars are fake, and built from floor sweepings until proved otherwise........Bolton’s car brought good money, even the fake ones.........but it was THAT sale that elevated the prices........try selling one of his cars now, standing alone.......your gonna take it in the axx.

Edited December 28, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[md murray]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

but it was THAT sale that elevated the prices........try selling one of his cars now, standing alone.......your gonna take it in the axx.

Interesting...ok that makes sense -I know that there was certainly some very serious money all in one tent that day

[1937hd45]

We all know of suspect restorations, and the circle of knowledgeable people that know the truth is shrinking with the loss of friends every year. Will it matter to the "young people" in the hobby 10-20 years in the future? Bob 

[vermontboy]

All of this is nothing new - when I was a kid I bought a copy of Classic Cars and Antiques by Gottlieb and Bowman (1952) - I was fascinated by a chapter on how to buy a classic car - just one example - lots of cobbed up details.

 

 

[1912Staver]

Brass cars are quite a bit different animal than the big classics.  Of course original body cars are most desirable in either case. But many brass cars weren't saved until the bodywork was in tatters . Wood body cars are even fewer in number with original bodywork.  The big classics are usually 20 years at least newer and were generally far more durable in construction.  Brass cars became obsolete very quickly and often turned into wagons or things like sawmill powerplants. The ones that made it to their 10 th birthday as intact cars are a true rarity. But from the early post war years onward people have been re creating them from fragments. A lucky few get to start with a barn stored original.

 When I became seriously interested in early cars I was surprised by how small a space many of them have when in the drivers seat. People must have been relatively small 100 - 120 years ago. I am 6' 2" 1 , 220 lbs, and find the majority of Brass touring cars quite small up front.  My conclusion was to start with a chassis and build a speedster so I would actually have a comfortable fit.

 I ended up with a reasonably priced 1912 chassis only Staver Chicago 40.  Tons of work to go , but it's a great learning experience. Staver built a few factory racing cars so that is what I am loosely basing my bodywork on. Simple construction with no attempt to deceive anyone that it is anything but a newly built body.

My hat is off to those who are lucky enough to be the keepers of truly original brass cars. But that doesn't mean a few of us can't have a bit of fun with the cast offs.

One of the racers back in about 1912 / 13, can a car get much more basic ? I think the racers were based on the Staver 30's. Similar to my 40 but a shorter wheelbase and slightly smaller bore on the Teetor Hartley "T " head.

Greg in Canada

Edited December 28, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, md murray said:

Interesting...ok that makes sense -I know that there was certainly some very serious money all in one tent that day

 

 

I actually spoke to some some of the most respected people in the auction world, and asked them about their opinion as to auction house, location, ect............and how the cars were dealt with and marketed. I didn’t agree with many of their thought processes or conclusions, but overall they did very well........ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS A NO RESERVE SALE............. in my opinion it was not advertised as well as it could have been.......and I would have split the collection in half..........and had two sales..........but in the end, overall, the results were good. And one of the “floor sweeping” cars brought huge money, purchased by a friend of mine........I asked him directly why he pulled the trigger at that number, and his answer was...........there are no “real” ones, and this is the best of what is left, and most will never be available at any time or price.

Edited December 28, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

23 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I actually spoke to some some of the most respected people in the auction world, and asked them about their opinion as to auction house, location, ect............and how the cars were dealt with and marketed. I didn’t agree with many of their thought processes or conclusions, but overall they did very well........ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS A NO RESERVE SALE............. in my opinion it was not advertised as well as it could have been.......and I would have split the collection in half..........and had two sales..........but in the end, overall, the results were good. And one of the “floor sweeping” cars brought huge money, purchased by a friend of mine........I asked him directly why he pulled the trigger at that number, and his answer was...........there are no “real” ones, and this is the best of what is left, and most will never be available at any time or price.

 

I true no reserve sale of interesting and hard to come by cars (in a large lot) will usually hit a home run.   But you are taking a bit of risk of course.   In 2001 Richie Clyne and Don Williams sold off a bunch of the Blackhawk cars 1 month after 9/11 in a true no reserve sale at Hershey.   There were some real  deals because it was a scary time,  but in general large no reserve sales do well.

 

Note this is different than a single no reserve car in a general auction where you could really get screwed.    The larger collection brings everybody out while a single car can get lost.

[edinmass]

I Greg....how about a thread with photos of your project?

[1912Staver]

Hi Ed, I am very space compromised so parts get worked on and then stored away. It hasn't been " mock up " assembled since it was in the hands of the person I bought it from.  And since then some of the correct  engine has turned up and the Stephens Duryea engine that was considered has been sold off.

I have some photos of it and a bunch of general Staver Chicago information on my Flickr page. I don't have any of the photo's on my present computer after a hard drive failure a couple of years ago. Some day I need to try to re load all of it on my present computer.  Some of it is on a flash drive . The gent right at the bottom is Ralph Staver ; now deceased, , grandson of Harry Staver, owner of Staver Chicago.

Greg

Edited December 28, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

18 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

This is why the hobby seems so silly to me sometimes. Looks like a Duesenberg? Check. Sounds like a Duesenberg? Check. Drives like a Duesenberg? Check. Mostly Duesenberg parts? Check. 99% of the people in the world will recognize it as a Duesenberg, including judges everywhere but A-C-D events and especially high-end concours? Check.  . . . 

 

It's all an illusion, a shell game, one of those nesting dolls with another doll inside. The only reason most guys care about pedigrees is because they think the guy who buys it from him will care. And that guy only cares because he thinks the next guy will care. We never really get to the guy to whom it truly matters, only the worry about "protecting my investment" and thus insuring that future buyers will want it as much as you do and therefore will give you your money back. With that Duesenberg up there, the investment is far smaller, so there's no need to fret over protecting it with esoterics. It's vaporware, the same thing that makes that worthless rectangle of paper in your wallet able to be exchanged for $100 worth of real goods. Only the belief that there's value sustains it. Without that shared belief, what's left?

 

I don't know that I'll ever be able to scratch together $300-400,000 to buy a toy car, but if I can, I'll be scouring the world for the nicest rebodied, non-pedigreed Duesenberg I can find and then I'll drive the wheels off the stupid thing, grinning like a mental patient all the way, pedigrees and "matching numbers" be damned.

 

FWIW, my own view is that a lot of this is inherent in a market in luxury goods.  It's like the difference between a real Fendi bag and a fake Fendi bag.  They do the same thing and look the same.  But the former is worth many many times the latter because it's a luxury good, and market values for luxury goods generally hinge on authenticity and provenance and rarity.  The goods news is that no one needs a real Duesenberg or a real Fendi bag, so at least the stakes are low even if the market prices are high.