sunnybaba

Unusual Franklin Transmission..???

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Hi, I'm trying to figure out so many things about this 1930 S-145 Franklin, That was modified by Dick Lamphere....  in july of 1974, he took out the Warner T3A three speed transmission ( it was slipping out of second and high gears), He obtained a Warner T 77-1 Four speed from Henry Manwell, and rebuilt that T-77-1 and installed it in the car I have now.... Could anyone tell me if Franklin used a Warner T-77 ..??  or perhaps it came out of a different make vehicle...?   Dick used a different bell housing that was 1 " thicker than the T3A .... the total length of the T3A tranny and the T3A bell housing was  20"  and the total length of the T-77-1 and it's bell housing was/is 19,75" 

I Don't think the T-77-1 has syncromesh, but it sure shifts smooth, what little I have driven it....    Any info on the T-77-1 Tranny would be very appreciated.

As I read Dick's Record books of all the repairs and maintenance he did on this car... there are soooo oo many changes he made to it.... like putting in a s-135 crank... and then having to lengthen the push rod on the fuel pump, rewiring the generator to make it 12 volts and then a different regulator, and then rewiring the starter, adding a power brake booster, grinding down the push rods, coating the exhaust valves, changing the piston rings, milling .025 off the head, thus increasing the compression..... it goes on and on.... I don't know how much of this car is still a Franklin....... ??   I am trying to sort this vehicle out... Thank God he left detailed journals,  of all his 'Experiments' on the car....  I will say one thing about it... It starts right up with a few revolutions of the engine... it runs smooth... doesn't smoke.... has excellent acceleration.. brakes real strong ...( I took off the brake booster) and... I am getting the steering box rebuilt (modified) by Dick Pratt.... so it should steer better..... And I am painting and upholstering it now.....  I took the brass pads off the roof that he used to bolt that big rack on the roof.... (he built a new roof using 1 1/8" oak with a galvanized steel covering ... and he carried up to 1,500 lbs on the roof ..!)  It is a strong Beast... but will never be brought back to original condition..... I am simply going to get it looking Good and Driving well and then,  Drive it....  I think Dick would approve of the way I am going to make use of his car...☺️

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Yes, the T-77  4spd was a Franklin transmission. It was an option in 1931, and mated with the 4.25 rear axle gear set.

 

For 29, 30, and early 31 the optional 4 spd was a Detroit. A great transmission when properly rebuilt, but it was more complex and heavier than the Warner that replaced it sometime in mid 31.  

 

Both 4 speeds had an "emergency low" first gear that was not used in normal driving. Often called a "stump-puller" or "granny gear". At idle you can walk faster than the car will move. Great gear for loading the car in a trailer !!!!!   Or walking around the car while listening for squeaks and rattles.  The last time I did that was on a large lawn and I wanted to find a squeaking wheel.  I put it E-low gear with the engine at idle. I got out and started walking next to the car and leaning down listening near each wheel.  My grew-up-in-Franklins, wise-alec girlfriend waited until I was leaning down by the right rear wheel, then she reached over and shoved the hand throttle to full. I had to run to catch up. Gotta love a gal who knows enough about Franklins to punk the mechanic !  :wub:

 

The swap to a 1930 engine is doable, but needs the 31 T-77 bell housing, hand brake, and make new toe and floor boards to fit the changes of positions of the shift and brake handles. Then change the drive shaft to match the length. I've done such swaps and it's a lot of work, but it's nice not to have that Knee-knocker brake handle by the driver's door. As to the gears, you only gain the E-low gear. Low, intermediate, and high gear (2nd,3rd, and 4th) are so close to the same ratios as the three speeds that it doesn't make much difference for all that work. And the T3 and T3A 3spd are rebuildable.

 

The early T-77's did not have syncros. The later 31 T-77 only had syncro between 3rd and 4th (intermediate and high).

 

And yes, they are a very nice driving transmission. The  basic design was used by Warner on many auto makers, including my 33 English Austin, which has the baby version of theT-77. And that design was used at least into the early 70's that I aware of. My 72 AMX Warner was very much alike inside.

 

Paul

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Thank you Paul.. I thought you might know...  II have a similar situation as Brooklyn Beer does... with leaking push rod tubes (at the bottom) and rocker arm /valve covers... I bought the cork gaskets for both, from Jeff... and read what others have said about using hylomar high temp gasket sealer (sparingly).... and I saw the 7/8" wrench that you posted on brooklyn beers post, with the bend and cut-out used on the S145 ....  What I need is a step by step (with photos would be nice)... description of the process of removing the rocker cage, and tightening/lowering the push rod tubes... and how to get that lower round gasket under the tubes ..? (I guess you have to pull out the push rod...and then rotate and thread down the tubes, tighten the lock nuts....... and then install the upper rocker cage gaskets and...... gently tighten down the cage bolts and then reset the rocker arm valve clearance   ( Dick L. adjusted them .007 & .010)......  is that .010 on the exhaust..?

anyway I need some HELP... getting good instructions, step by step, through the process... I have looked in the members index of questions & answers.. but could not find the good guidance I need to feel confident messing with the valve system gaskets... I'm asking you here on the forum, rather than personally... because I know others my want and need the same instruction ....

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Ok, SB,  here's what I sent to Chris for resealing the sidedraft engine valve cages. I'm surprised this isn't in the Franklin Q&A. After all those years I'd have thought Tom or I would have covered it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris, hi.
Sure, here ya go.
 
To get started, back off each rocker arm adjusting screw a couple of turns. That’s so they won’t interfere with tightening the rocker boxes back in place.
 
1.Remove the pushrod tube nut and clamp.
2. Remove the two nuts on the intake manifold side.
3. Remove the tall compensating nut inside the rocker box.
4. Lift the rocker box off and gently spread the bottom ends of the pushrod tubes to clear the exhaust runner of the cylinder head.
5. Be careful not to have the tappets fall out of the pushrod tube/tappet guides onto the floor. The tappets need to go back into the  hole of the same camshaft hole they came out of. 
6. Unthread the pushrod tubes from the rocker box. Set them aside in order they were on the motor so that they go back to the same rocker box hole.
 
Clean all the rocker boxes, pushrod tubes, cylinder heads, and engine base surfaces with lacquer thinner.
 
7. Thread the pushrod tube nuts all the way onto their tubes.
8. Put sealant on pushrod tube threads and thread each pushrod back into the rocker box hole it came out of and further into the rocker box than they were before.
9. Make sure each tappet is back in the hole it came out of.
10. Install gaskets with sealer.
11. Put each rocker box back in place were it was, making sure that the push rod tubes are threaded up enough that they do not touch the engine base, yet. That’s to make sure the rocker boxes are in full contact with the cylinder heads as you tighten them down.
12. Use new lock washers for all the nuts.
13. Install and tighten the tall compensating nut inside the rocker box.
14. Install and tighten the two nuts on the intake manifold side of the rocker boxes.
15. Turn the pushrod tubes down until they are snug on their gaskets.
16. Install the pushrod tube clamps and tighten the nuts.
17. Warm up engine at fast idle for tem minutes. Then slow the idle down and adjust each rocker arm valve clearance to .006 intakes, and .008 exhaust. 
 
Do not use the original factory valve clearance. It’s too tight and will burn valves. .006 and .008 are a better compromise between not burning valves and not being too noisy.
 
Let me know how it goes.
 
Paul
 
 
Edit note. The .006 intake and .008 exhaust valve clearance  is for the 31 engines like Chris has. The original 003 & .006 valve clearance was a bit too tight.  For the Series 14 the .007 &.007 are fine. 
 
Paul  
Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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One other thing to check,....

 

While the valve cages are off look at the studs extending out the top of the cylinder heads. The cages sit on shoulders of those studs, not the cylinder head.

 

You may notice that not all the stud shoulders are the same height off the cylinder head top. That's common. But what it does is tip the cage in relation to the cylinder. That can make valve train noise when the rocker arms are not moving in line with the valve stem and pushrods. As the rocker arm moves up and down it is pushing on slight angle and making the pushrod and valve stem hit the sides of their guides which will increase wear. Plus the rocker arm is being pushed sideways and that makes side wear of the cage on either side of the rocker arm so that the rocker arm will eventually be sliding back and forth sideways on it's shaft adding more noise.

 

The solution is cheap washers. The cheap, bulk 5/16 washers that some hardware store chains carry are stamped from different thickness sheet metal stock. If you can find those, buy a box of 100 and sort them by thickness to place on the studs as shims so that the cages sit level.  

 

Pictures of one stud of correct height next to one that needed a washer shim.

 

Paul

 

 

P1010012.JPG

P1010015.JPG

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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Thanks Paul...... Tom probably did address this in one of the Q&A sessions... I looked under 1930 and then valves in one index... then under valves & 1930 in another index.... and found bits and pieces of what you just told me.... but not,  all in order, in one place.... Thanks again for sharing your knowledge... with me/us....  I assume the loosing of the push rod tube nut is different on the '30 & '31...... one above the exhaust manifold and the other ('31) under the manifold... this is based on the photo of the two modified 7/8" wrenches.....  Correct..?

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SB,

 

1930, and earlier, the pushrod tube has a lock nut under the cages and one inside, as shown in my wrench picture. The cages just have a through-hole for the tubes with no thread.

 

In 31, when Franklin went to the Bowen valve cage pressure oiler system, they shortened the pushrod tubes, put a matching thread in the cage's tube holes that is recessed slightly below the cage floor, and did away with the top lock nut. They just used the nut under the cage to lock the tubes.  That way, the pushrod tubes would become drains for the oil to return to the crankcase rather than puddle in the bottom of the cages like the 1930. That also gave addition oiling to the pushrods and tappets.

 

At the same time for 31, they did away with the two long "tails" of the 1930 felt valve pads that would have extended down into those oil puddles to wick the oil back up to the rocker arms.  Every now and then I come across a 30 that still has those tailed pads.

 

None of the 30 and earlier "shake-n-bake" valve oiler systems, or the later pressure-fed systems, could be balanced to give the pads the proper amount of oil. It's not enough for some, and too much for other cages.  So most owners shut off the oilers and just oil the pads by hand about every 600-800 miles to make sure they get the proper amount.

 

BTW, the factory method for checking for the right amount of oil on the pads is,...   Pinch the pad between thumb and index fingers. If the felt shows wet with oil around where your pinching, that's enough. More than that will just cause oil leak spray all over the passenger side of the engine and compartment, and smoke from burning oil on the exhaust manifold.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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On 12/22/2019 at 10:00 PM, sunnybaba said:

 with leaking push rod tubes (at the bottom) and rocker arm /valve covers...

May I make one suggestion - just enjoy your car for a while and let it leak.  You will get "the hang of it" - the engineering is pretty straight forward and there will hopefully be plenty of time to work on it.  I see far too many people get too engaged early on and then end up with life or ... intervening to have a dis-assembled car in the garage.   You bought a good driver - drive it. 

 

Paul's wrench in picture is great - I never had one, but I do have at least 3 brands of wrench sets (covering just about every angle imaginable too) over 4 craftsman rolling tool boxes - and I would say I used about 25 tools the last time I did rocker arm/push rod seals (which in doing a car to show in CCCA takes some effort). Sidenote:  I periodically pull out a wrench that has the side ground down or ... - screams Franklin project. 

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Add'l sidenote:  If you break a stud on the crankcase holding the push rod retainers - the engine pretty much has to come apart to fix (not a fun project). 

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Correct, John.   That stud is not removable out the top. It's actually a hex head bolt that gets threaded outward from inside the engine base, just above the camshaft.   If one gets broken, the usual method of repair is, curse a lot,... drop the oil pan down. Curse some more as you pull the other valve cages to get the tappets off the cam lobes,... now do some serious cursing as you pull the hood, grill shell, and if it's a 12A or earlier, the head lights and front splash apron have to be moved out of the way.  Then, everything off the front of the engine to get the cam shaft out. Then the broken stud can be replaced.

 

A very tough way to learn that the pushrod tube clamp nut doesn't need to be very tight.  Just enough to compress a new lock washer.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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53 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

May I make one suggestion - just enjoy your car for a while and let it leak.  You will get "the hang of it" - the engineering is pretty straight forward and there will hopefully be plenty of time to work on it.  I see far too many people get too engaged early on and then end up with life or ... intervening to have a dis-assembled car in the garage.   You bought a good driver - drive it. 

 

Paul's wrench in picture is great - I never had one, but I do have at least 3 brands of wrench sets (covering just about every angle imaginable too) over 4 craftsman rolling tool boxes - and I would say I used about 25 tools the last time I did rocker arm/push rod seals (which in doing a car to show in CCCA takes some effort). Sidenote:  I periodically pull out a wrench that has the side ground down or ... - screams Franklin project. 

 Long ago, someone explained to me that Franklin engine oil leaks were a form of anti-corrosion for the underside of the car, but it only works when the car is driven. ;) 

 

Paul

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1 minute ago, PFitz said:

 Long ago, someone explained to me that Franklin engine oil leaks were a form of anti-corrosion for the underside of the car, but it only works when the car is driven. ;) 

 

Paul

Many Sleeve Valve cars have the original exhaust still - same principal :) 

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In the shop I use the large pieces of card board that appliance dealers throwout. And I can wheel a floor jack right over it if need be. A carton from a dish, or clothes washer, or clothes dyer, with the top and bottom cut off, then opened out, is just the right size to lay between the tires and under the entire drive train.  The card board is too thick for oil to seep all the way through and mess up the garage floor.

 

When it gets too yucky, it goes in the garbage and I stop by the appliance store, again. They are glad to have someone take the boxes away.

 

Paul

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THANK YOU.... you guys are great..!   I appreciate your suggestions and advice..... The car doesn't actually leak any oil unless the engine is running... and the carport where it is parked has the floor covered with used carpet and then on top of that I have flattened cardboard boxes... like Paul suggests....  I did buy new cork gaskets from Jeff.. and he recommended this special type of high heat gasket glue... to glue the valve cover cork gaskets to the lip if the valve covers...... at present there are NO gaskets at all under the valve covers... (just metal to metal).... so I think I will at lease put those cork gaskets under the valve covers.. 

Isn't there a way to loosen the push rod tubes  (tube nuts)  Top & bottom.... without touching the rocker arm cages. or loosing the tappets... and just move or tighten the tubes downward.. so they sit tight against the bottom, round, ring type gaskets that are already under the push rod tubes..???  that is where they are leaking most...  around the bottom of the push rod tubes... and I think Paul said that the 1930 tubes were not  threaded into the cages.....  and then there is another thought that I might be able to slit the new, little round gaskets, I got from Jeff.... slide them under the push rod tubes at the bottom, slide them around the push rods, (because of the slit)... then rotate them so the slit is on the outside... put a little of the Hylomar high temp sealer on the slit..... and then tighten down the tubes with the lock nuts..??   what do you guys think..?? is it possible to loosen and then tighten down, the push rod  tubes, without removing the rocker arm cages on a 1930 side draft..?

Now that I have said all of that.... I am not going to remove the rocker arm cages and pull out the push rods...... I am just going to Drive it..... with some leaks.... and give it the oil that it uses..... until I get to know 'her' better.... saving the more intimate, inner explorations, once we get to know each other better.....🙄 I am waiting on my seats that are being upholstered, and the new exhaust system, and the rebuilt steering box to come back.. then 'she' will be on the road as my weekly trip to town car..... 😋        another thought about those small studs that have the big nuts that hold down the rocker cages... why would you need to even compress a new lock wash..? couldn't you put some locktite on the threads  of those studs and just lightly snug down the nuts... and they would stay there without needing to compress lock washers..?

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SB,

It always looks like the bases of the pushrods and the tappet guides are where the oil is leaking. Wipe your finger about half way up around the tube and you'll most likely find it's wet with oil. The oil leaks from  the tubes at the cages, and from under the cages at the cylinder head, which gets blown onto the tubes by the cooling fan air. The hot oil then runs down the tubes and accumulates at the base of the tubes where it's out of the air blast and looks like it's mostly leaking there. Rarely is it leaking as much there as running down the outsides of the tubes from leaks above.

 

 It'd be easier to remove the cages, along with the pushrod tubes. Then properly clean all mating surfaces of oil. Otherwise, your just wasting your time and materials  because sealers will not seal an oily surface - even if you think you can wipe it dry in place.    Do it right and you'll only need to do it once.

 

  Why new lock washers ? Because Loctite and other threat locking compounds don't work well on oily threads, lock washers do. To clean the valve cage studs well enough you need to remove the cages. Plus, tightening new lock washers until you feel the added resistance as the lock washer flattens out is a good way of not over tightening fasteners.  There are only a few places on a Franklin that lock washers should not be used. Anywhere there are castellated, or safety wire nuts, and the cylinder base studs SHOULD ONLY USE the Factory special double nuts.

 

It's not that much more work or difficult, than trying to reseal leaks by not removing the cages and tubes. But the leak-stopping success rate goes way up if you do remove them to properly clean the surfaces that need to be sealed.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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