theKiwi

153 Coupe Wiring Improvements

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Hi Everyone

 

I recently purchased a 1931 153 Coupe. It was well on the way through restoration when the owner passed away, so it's down to me to finish it off. I don't have it yet, but I'm told it really needs a new wiring harness. So if I'm having Rhode Island Wiring make a new set of wiring harnesses for it, I will get them to make the additions so I can have turn signals on it. 

 

It also comes with a second tail light, so I need to find a tail light support for it - @mikewest - do you have a tail light support bracket for a Series 15?

 

So this involves at least one extra wire to the existing tail light, and then of course another set of wires over to the right side tail light.

 

What is done inside the tail light to allow a bulb to flash - does it need a bulb and socket replaced with a 2 contact setup, or do they just flash the existing brake light bulb?

 

For the front, I see in the Franklin Q&A that Tom says he flashes the cowl lamps - same question - do they have to be modified to a 2 pin base, or does it flash the same bulb that's on as a running light?

 

Controllers for all this - Restoration Stuff sell a turn signal switch, a heavy duty turn signal switch, and then also a $160 Turn Signal Controller System. It's not clear from the catalogue if you need a switch and the controller, or if you need one or the other - anyone know from experience? (I'll call them later when it's their morning in California).

 

Thanks for any tips and insights

 

Roger

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Hi Roger...... Your existing bulbs in both tail lights and cowl lights (or even fender lights)... will simply flash as the current is sent in flashes to the bulbs.... No modifications necessary to bulbs or sockets..... The only thing that I have used was an aftermarket turn signal unit that mounts on your steering column, and a flasher that mounts under your dash....  Snyders (and other model A suppliers) have a 12 volt or 6 volt turn signal Kit that cost $79.95    US made, includes signal-stat switch, the fuse, flasher and the flasher socket... hope this helps.... Sunny

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So does the controller somehow take over the function? If the cowl light is already on because the lights are turned on, then to flash them as a turn signal, something has to turn it off to flash it, which is the opposite of how it would flash if it was turned off (in daylight). That's why I'm wondering if it needs new wires and pins etc.

 

I hadn't thought to look at Snyders - I'll take a look there too

 

Roger

Edited by theKiwi (see edit history)

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I Just got a new harness for my  32 163 from RI wire and they included the turn switch with the kit. I would check with them before doing anything  as they are very good at makeing them work with what you have.

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Roger,

RIWS builds the harnesses for the turn signal option so that the front parking lights and the brake lights are routed through the turn signal unit. When the turn signal is off, the park/brake lights work like they original do.

 

When you switch the turn signal on it sends power to the parking light and brake light on that side and makes them flash. Even if your foot is on the brake, the signal unit  interrupts that brake light to make it flash.

 

So, when braking to make a turn, those following you would see one brake light on steady and the one for the direction of the turn will be flashing.   Same for the four-ways - all brake and parking lights will flash together. It comes with the socket to work with a standard 6 volt flasher canister, still available new through autoparts stores.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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Thanks @PFitz and @odat - it didn't occur to me that Rhode Island Wiring would alter the dashboard end of the whole thing too - now I understand how it can work.

 

I spoke with Rhode Island Wiring a couple of days ago about this in general terms, and she said they had the plans needed to put the turn signal on the left and the extra light on the right, but didn't mention, and I didn't ask of course, that they set the whole harness up to do this, and supply the flasher and switch etc as part of all this. So that allays another concern, which was that I'd have all this nice new cloth bound wire throughout the car, and there'd be modern plastic wiring in places from some add-on flasher switch and unit.

 

So when I get the car I'll check out just what all it needs and place my order with them.

 

Thanks!

 

Roger

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Roger,

When you order the turn signal option, if there is any question about the right side harness length, ask Marsha to look up my name account and use those same Series14 and 15 right side tail light measurements as they've made for me in the past.

 

BTW, if you want the turn signal unit indicator lights to work, you'll need to have the unit grounded by scratching off some of the steering column paint for the turn signal unit housing to ground to the column, or use a separate wire from the unit to a good ground point up under the dash.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, theKiwi said:

Hi Everyone

 

I recently purchased a 1931 153 Coupe. It was well on the way through restoration when the owner passed away, so it's down to me to finish it off. I don't have it yet, but I'm told it really needs a new wiring harness. So if I'm having Rhode Island Wiring make a new set of wiring harnesses for it, I will get them to make the additions so I can have turn signals on it. 

 

It also comes with a second tail light, so I need to find a tail light support for it - @mikewest - do you have a tail light support bracket for a Series 15?

 

So this involves at least one extra wire to the existing tail light, and then of course another set of wires over to the right side tail light.

 

What is done inside the tail light to allow a bulb to flash - does it need a bulb and socket replaced with a 2 contact setup, or do they just flash the existing brake light bulb?

 

For the front, I see in the Franklin Q&A that Tom says he flashes the cowl lamps - same question - do they have to be modified to a 2 pin base, or does it flash the same bulb that's on as a running light?

 

Controllers for all this - Restoration Stuff sell a turn signal switch, a heavy duty turn signal switch, and then also a $160 Turn Signal Controller System. It's not clear from the catalogue if you need a switch and the controller, or if you need one or the other - anyone know from experience? (I'll call them later when it's their morning in California).

 

Thanks for any tips and insights

 

Roger

Im out right now. Im about to get some copied from a original so check back in 8 weeks. Mike

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21 minutes ago, mikewest said:

Im out right now. Im about to get some copied from a original so check back in 8 weeks. Mike

 

Is this the right side tail light brackets for Series 15 you're talking about?

 

Thanks

 

Roger

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Yes The mount that bolts to the fender. I get them recast from a original in aluminum. I sell and you shine it up for [plating or paint .

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This is the light base I copy in aluminum. Brass is way to heavy and expensive. Steel is too heavy also. The aluminum bases are easier to prepare for paint or chrome. Mike    

1932 franklin tailight stand.jpg

Edited by mikewest (see edit history)

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Mike, that's a 32 and later fender mount tail light base. Not the Series 14/15  rear apron mount type base. It won't work with Roger's 153. For one thing the 153 tail light harness that RIWS makes won't reach out to the fender, like a 32 extended wires.  I know because I've installed the RIWS turn signal harnesses in both Serie 15  and 16. 

 

Paul 

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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Yes I'm looking for one for a Series 15 - I'm happy to get a left side one and cut it apart and turn it around - one of these

 

image.thumb.png.95b18a105cb5782b0041d3aae329ba23.png

 

That I will cut apart and turn to make a mirror image if that's how the right side ones are done for this.

 

Roger

Edited by theKiwi (see edit history)

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Rodger,

If you can't find someone who had Series 14 & 15 right stanchions remade in the past,(factory originals are extremely rare) one option is to use your left side stanchion cut into three pieces close to where the factory welded those three casting together and use those parts as mold patterns to have more "recast" in cast iron by a foundry that does a lot of that type work for the shops that restore antique stoves. Then have both welded back together as  left and right stanchions.

 

If you have extra's cast you can reduce the cost by selling those extras to Franklin owners who also want to add a right tail light.

 

I've used Tomahawk foundry for my stove parts and they do excellent work with fast turn around.  http://www.tomahawkfoundry.com/

 

If you email pix and measurements to Al the owner, he can give you an estimate of cost.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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Thanks @PFitz - I'll give Jeff Hasslen a call tomorrow - he seems to have his finger on the pulse of such things.

 

I know where there's a nice looking one already - on the 157 Coupe at the Franklin Automobile Collection at Hickory Corners - I was looking at that just a couple of days ago... 

 

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_3189.thumb.jpg.a4a241019ad48b8e4ebc2684fc7b36f8.jpg

 

 

Roger

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Maybe this is the excuse I need to tell my wife why I need a 3D printer - to make casting moulds since we have all the drawings needed LOL

 

Roger

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Roger , I have  taillight stands like shown in stock.  I thought you needed a 163 style .I may have a original. Ill post a picture tomorrow if so.

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Thanks. At this time I'm not entirely certain if what is on the car is as I showed above, or whether it's this one - same design, but the offset to the side is different.

 

I'm pretty sure it's this one below - 48348/48358 - 48348 is the one for the left side, 48358 is the mirror image of it for the right side.

 

A right side one if one exists would be perfect, otherwise a left side one that I cut apart and rotate the parts would work too (and presumably much more common than the right side ones).

 

Roger

 

image.thumb.png.400cc13ec9e087c70e2d4d846222e633.png

 

The factory part number for the right side one is 

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On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 7:11 PM, theKiwi said:

Yes I'm looking for one for a Series 15 - I'm happy to get a left side one and cut it apart and turn it around - one of these

 

image.thumb.png.95b18a105cb5782b0041d3aae329ba23.png

 

That I will cut apart and turn to make a mirror image if that's how the right side ones are done for this.

 

Roger

Roger,

I think you'll find this one with the 6-7/8 offset is not the one your looking for. I've never seen a Ser 14 or15 with that much off-set to the tail light position.

 

Plus the drawings associated with it were not finished. They do not list what series it was intended to be used on. And there are no notes in the revision block that is common during production. It's not uncommon in the Franklin drawing files that there are drawings of parts that were never used and that missing info in the drawing blocks, nor notes that lead to any other drawings it  was superseded, or is superseding another drawing, plus the drawing number not being in the parts book are all indications of such non-use.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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5 minutes ago, PFitz said:

Roger,

I think you'll find this one with the 6-7/8 offset is not the one your looking for. I've never seen a Ser 14 or15 with that much off-set to the tail light position.

 

Plus the drawings associated with it were not finished. They do not list what series it was intended to be used on. And there are no notes in the revision block that is common during production. It's not uncommon in the Franklin drawing files that there are drawings of parts that were never used and that missing info in the drawing blocks, nor notes that lead to any other drawings it  was superseded, or is superseding another drawing, plus the drawing number not being in the parts book are all indications of such non-use.

 

Paul

 

Yes, thanks Paul - since I found that image and posted it, I found the latter one I posted which is almost certainly the right one with 4⅜" offset. The card for the 6⅞" offset one says it's for Series 1500.

 

Roger

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9 minutes ago, theKiwi said:

 

Yes, thanks Paul - since I found that image and posted it, I found the latter one I posted which is almost certainly the right one with 4⅜" offset. The card for the 6⅞" offset one says it's for Series 1500.

 

Roger

 There's a bunch of those 1500 series drawings, but as we know, no such  model was never produced.  There's a lot to be learned from info in the drawings, but what is not in some drawings can also tell you a lot. 

 

In an earlier life, I had 6 years of schooling as a draftsman/technical illustrator in the pre-CAD days. And worked in the field for quite a few years back when there was still a lot of Government aerospace work on Long Island. Understanding what the mindset, intent, and production realities of the drawings are helps a lot.

 

Paul

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I bought a right hand taillight bracket (back in 1990's) and it was a bunch of pipe, metal stock, and silver solder - I would not have made it the way the builder did (at least at the time, but today I would probably do exactly the same thing and get the job done in a day to move onto the next project), but it only took about 2 hours of clean-up and another hour to paint to get it on a 99.5 CCCA point car. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Mike West has made the 14/15 style on aluminum - I had one in my hands two years ago via a friend stopping in on the way back from Hershey (he and I had a discussion about how to drill it). 

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