PayPal is charging for Tariffs; 25% of the purchase

[mike6024]

yes

 

Cadillac China sales totaled 66,523 new vehicles in the second quarter of 2019, an increase of 36.3 percent compared to Q2 2018.

 

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/cadillac-china-sales-numbers-figures-results-second-quarter-q2-2019/

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[mercer09]

my only point is that China's gov reports whatever they want. most often not the truth..............

 

folks, you are dealing with communists. believe what you want. I have no trust in China.

 

 

regarding the many condos with no inhabitants.....yes the gov got ahead of themselves in China and there are vast areas like this.

 

never said Canada is not affected- just that it is our fight and our decision in what we do and we are most often damned in our decisions.

 

nobody is ever happy having less then others. Our deficit at this point is insurmountable. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

LOL

 

on another note- nice rusty crusty Pierce on ebay for 19k or best offer. looks like fun!  not mine...........

[auburnseeker]

4 hours ago, mercer09 said:

my only point is that China's gov reports whatever they want. most often not the truth..............

 

folks, you are dealing with communists. believe what you want. I have no trust in China.

So actually we would never really know if they are paying the tariffs as they wouldn't report that it's hurting them.  

Of course they won't show you the poverty only the prosperity.  

Reminds me of that San Francisco Video from before the quake with all those new cars running around,  when in fact it was only a handful run over and over. 

Wouldn't surprise me if the Gov't bought the cars for upper level officials just to look like they were having good sales to all the newly rich citizens.  We would never know as they would only let favorable records be revealed and those may be "edited"

[cxgvd]

I'd like to introduce the concept of unintended consequences to this thread.  The future will tell us if tariffs are good or bad for the US and the rest of the world.  All, I think, we know today is tariffs are charged and collected on certain imports from many countries, Canada included.  The US government is in trade negotiations with the Chinese and China buys soya beans from south America, not the American heartland.  History books will tell us if the US guessed the Chinese would boycott US beans or was it an unintended consequence.

 

For example, when an Archduke from Austria was assassinated in 1914, could the killer have known he would start WW1 and affect the world for the next 40 years.  I understand your discussion how trade tariffs affect your day to day purchases, I wonder how the world will look in 5, 10, or 20 years?

 

Regards, Gary

[padgett]

Could use the Fisk and Gould method of economics: need more money, just crank up the printing presses.

 

Remember hearing that if France missed one more payment on WWI, we would own it.

 

What I am getting at is that there are some very creative accountants inside the beltway and nothing is sacred.

 

Florida is the only state I know of where when visibility is dramatically reduced and traffic slows it is illegal to turn your flashers on (except for white pickup trucks).

 

 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

So actually we would never really know if they are paying the tariffs as they wouldn't report that it's hurting them. 

 

I HOPE one would know if the price you paid PayPal (to get back to the original thread) was 25% higher or not. If it is, guess who's paying for the tarriff.

[JACK M]

20 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

What does a new average vehicle cost in China, compared to a comparable model in the States?  Does it need to have all the safety features and emmissions ours have?  

 

According to our guide, the typical Chinese citizen will never own a car.

There is a waiting list just to get a drivers license, and even a longer waiting list for the vetting of ownership of a car.

There are lots of scooters, they even have their own lanes between the side walks and the main streets. There are low fences separating scooters from auto traffic on the main drags.

The main thoroughfares are mainly busses, trucks and taxis. Some regular looking family cars but WAY more scooters and pedestrians.

Taking the trains through the countryside we didn't see much happening. a few small villages, but the trains don't even slow down for them. They travel over 100 mph.

We went on one train that ran from downtown to the airport at somewhere in the 200 mph range.

Trains are pretty well packed and had airplane like service. And all quite clean and modern. 

 

[auburnseeker]

25 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

I HOPE one would know if the price you paid PayPal (to get back to the original thread) was 25% higher or not. If it is, guess who's paying for the tarriff.

So one needs to wonder though if they are charging 25 percent on the retail end more,  when we know it's the wholesale end that's getting a 25 % tariff levied , then who is to say that's not just a bit of greed on the sellers end and none of that 25% may be actually going to the tariff and being used strictly as a way to price gouge.  That wouldn't surprise me. Not like we have never seen it before.  Look at gas stations.  Hiccup somewhere in the world in gas supply and price goes up at the pump that day when they are still selling gas bought at a cheaper rate often days before.  

 

That makes me wonder about the whole electric car deal.  When there is usually only one supplier for the electric there is no competition.  Once the general populous has gone electric as they say,  what's to stop the suppliers from jacking the prices to recharge?  

With gas there is atleast some competition with independent stations. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Scooters and bicycles as mentioned earlier along with a little US zing.  

 

[TerryB]

In China westerners are typically not allowed to drive automobiles.  That was true when I was there and when my son was there in March.  You are driven to your destination either by cab which are mostly VW or by a hotel or company car.  Most times I traveled by cab or company minivan to the factory.  Like every city and every country there are areas of prosperity and areas waiting for prosperity to find them.  Most westerners stay in the better neighborhoods so their photos reflect that.  Out in the countryside you will find less signs of prosperity and those who hope it does not find them as they are not anxious to loose their way of life.

 

Best thing I can suggest is go there and see it for yourself.  One of my favorite memories was seeing the long lineup of customers waiting outside at the local KFC in Dongguan where I was working.  They had good reason to line up.  If you ever had chicken in a traditional Chinese restaurant you would make a beeline for a KFC and for its chicken with meat on the bone.  The chicken I was served in the traditional restaurant looked like it died from starvation.  After work a group of us would often go to the local Wal-Mart to buy some US snacks and to observe the shoppers looking for deals just like we do here.  I just could never warm up to the idea of buying food that was still moving or crawling as was possible in the Chinese Wal-Mart.  

[Graham Man]

Wow I picked the wrong time to go "off the grid" for Thanksgiving.  As with most "good government ideas" I normally just try to live with them, as we all know history will pick the winners and losers.  My intention of the original post was just to inform.  I would be less upset if ebay just told you about the additional coming charges (maybe somewhere in extra fine print).

 

I hate to say it but ebay has found me parts I could never have ever hoped to find at a swap meet.  I have walked hours just to come up empty looking for Graham parts.  So yes I will pay the charge to get the parts, I just wanted it to be a visible charge, therefore the post.

 

Hope everyone had a safe, Happy Thanksgiving

 

PS If you want to see something incredible about China watch Top Gear Season 18 episode 1&2 on China (2012).  I was  amazed at the cities and construction, it is eye opening and some interesting cars.

 

https://www.topgear.com/videos/jeremy-clarkson/jeremy-and-james-china-part-12-series-18-episode-2

Edited December 2, 2019 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Of coarse being a tourist I took most meals in a group.

A round table seating 15 or so with a HUGE lazy Susan in the middle.

I didn't care much for the food.

We stayed in fairly nice hotels and one could get a Gin for about the same as here in the mostly empty bar with bad service..

Beer was cheap and came in large bottles, might have been liters, but it didn't take very many to make a six pack.

[TerryB]

Neighborhood repair garage, this keeps the thread automotive themed.

 

 

 

[JACK M]

I like that pic Terry.

Not to get to far off subject. (Like PayPal on a antique auto forum).

Here's a couple of gas stations in Laos.

They use the pop bottles to measure.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[carbking]

When the country in question was Japan some 50 years ago, a close friend, now departed, used to say "They are not out-smarting us, we are out-dumbing them!"

 

Lots of possibilities in this discussion, but the mentioned Global Shipping Policy of ebay is....................well, unmentionable among gentlemen!

 

Of course, the answer to getting the tariff on Chinese made products, is to, when possible, buy non-Chinese made products. We have been in the retail (and wholesale) market for old cars for 50 years, and have not sold one single item produced in China. It costs more, but if one is adamant, it can be done!

 

Jon.

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

So one needs to wonder though if they are charging 25 percent on the retail end more,  when we know it's the wholesale end that's getting a 25 % tariff levied , then who is to say that's not just a bit of greed on the sellers end and none of that 25% may be actually going to the tariff and being used strictly as a way to price gouge.  That wouldn't surprise me. Not like we have never seen it before.  Look at gas stations.  Hiccup somewhere in the world in gas supply and price goes up at the pump that day when they are still selling gas bought at a cheaper rate often days before. 

 

Seriously? You really think the wholesaler effectively dropped their prices 25%? News flash. The wholesale price is the same as it was before.

 

Tariffs are paid at import. Whoever imports the product pays the tariff. That's just another cost that gets passed onto the end buyer, so the American consumer ultimately pays it. And frankly, WHO CARES whether the wholesaler or the importer physically pays the tariff to the feds?  If the retail price is 25% higher than it was before, the end buyer is ultimately paying it.

[auburnseeker]

Not the wholesaler.  Probably incorrect terminology.  Whoever made the part,  so the manufacturer,  might have dropped the finished product price.  Goes back to the $100 item is only worth $100.  If no one will pay a dime over $100 then they will not sell and hte factory will shutter or have to find a new product,  so if the factory can find a way to make them a little cheaper or charge a little less,  the orders keep on coming in.  

Think about it.  If the cost of a cheap Chinese wrench reaches that of a snap on,  They will have to make them cheaper to fall back into that cheap market,  or the former customers will have to pay more.  If the customer has to pay Snap On pricer,  they I'm pretty darn sure they won't be buying the off brand Chinese wrench. 

[Matt Harwood]

2 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Seriously? You really think the wholesaler effectively dropped their prices 25%? News flash. The wholesale price is the same as it was before.

 

Tariffs are paid at import. Whoever imports the product pays the tariff. That's just another cost that gets passed onto the end buyer, so the American consumer ultimately pays it. And frankly, WHO CARES whether the wholesaler or the importer physically pays the tariff to the feds?  If the retail price is 25% higher than it was before, the end buyer is ultimately paying it.

 

I think what he was saying is that they're apparently collecting a 25% tariff on the retail price rather than on the wholesale price that they paid on the item when it was imported. A small but potentially significant distinction, and if they're using tariffs as an excuse to nick customers for a few extra bucks (25% of whatever the price difference is between wholesale and retail), well, that's not really cool. Passing along the actual tariff costs to consumers is to be expected, but hiding behind the tariff to pad your bottom line a bit more seems unsavory. It's a bit of a shell game and I don't really blame them, since the added cost will probably hurt sales of just about any item and their profits will be down, but Randy's point that they're charging 25% of retail instead of 25% of wholesale does have some merit.

[Bhigdog]

19 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

If the retail price is 25% higher than it was before, the end buyer is ultimately paying it.

 

Except the retail price is usually only a fraction of the actual cost to buy/produce/resell the item. The 25% tariff does not, or should not, affect the total cost of delivering the goods into the hand of the buyer. It does not take into account overhead, employee wages, cost of money, transportation, inventory and carrying costs. A retailer that raises the price of almost anything by 25% and says "tariff" is gouging........Bob

Edited December 2, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Except the retail price is usually only a fraction of the actual cost to buy/produce/resell the item. The 25% tariff does not, or should not, affect the total cost of delivering the goods into the hand of the buyer. It does not take into account overhead, employee wages, cost of money, transportation, inventory and carrying costs. A retailer that raises the price of almost anything by 25% and says "tariff" is gouging........Bob

 

Rule of thumb: the retail price is at least 2X the wholesale price, and the wholesale price is at least 2X the manufacturing cost. Where the 25% is applied obviously depends on where manufacturing and assembly takes place. You are correct that if we are only talking about imported raw materials like steel, with the actual fabrication and assembly done in the US, the actual "cost" of the tariff sould only apply to the costs of these raw materials. And yes, if the 25% is being applied to the full retail price in that situation, someone is gouging.

[mike6024]

CNN : "- President Donald Trump announced Monday that the US will "restore" steel and aluminum tariffs on Brazil and Argentina, citing a "massive devaluation of their currencies." ..."

 

I follow this because I am invested in an iron ore producer.

 

 

[John348]

3 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Seriously? You really think the wholesaler effectively dropped their prices 25%? News flash. The wholesale price is the same as it was before.

 

Tariffs are paid at import. Whoever imports the product pays the tariff. That's just another cost that gets passed onto the end buyer, so the American consumer ultimately pays it. And frankly, WHO CARES whether the wholesaler or the importer physically pays the tariff to the feds?  If the retail price is 25% higher than it was before, the end buyer is ultimately paying it.

 

THANK-YOU!!!

[auburnseeker]

Of everything the tariffs have directly hit how have the prices gone up percentage wise that you are actually paying?  

I'm asking this to see what people are paying now compared to what they were paying for the same item.   This way we can see how much the 25% is really affecting the final prices.  I heard shoes were 4.00 a pair to make and that's what the companies would pay at the point the tariff would be added.  These are the same shoes they were charging $100 a pair for at the store.  

What I want to see is the hard numbers for how it's affected from people who have actually bought or been contemplating buying an item for the duration that tariffs were talked about/ enacted. 

We know there is alot of mis information out there that instantly said everything would cost 25% more.  Well then if so,  the retailers or suppliers are price gouging because the tariff isn't on retail. 

When I worked at a Marina pricing stock,  we marked our parts up 100 percent.  There was even a suggested price sheet for the items.  So we bought them from Mercury for 1/2 that price.  Mercury must have bought it from it's supplier for 1/2 of that or less because they were buying in such bulk so a $10 item must have cost mercury under 2.50.  So that $10 item actually would have went up .62. so it now cost probably 3.00 or less new.  

Post some examples so we can see how this is really affecting final prices. 

Obviously it's going to have some affect,  but is it as Earth shaking as the Media slams us with every day. 

I wonder if with the price increases are we just buying less or if our consumption remained the same?  Did we find new sources of the same products? 

 

 

[Joe in Canada]

2 hours ago, mike6024 said:

President Donald Trump announced Monday that the US will "restore" steel and aluminum tariffs on Brazil and Argentina,

Trump also used a loop hole and  declared Canada a national threat and imposed a tariff on steal and aluminum also but took it off a year later. That caused a lot of hard feelings up here how it was done.  I think I will pass on this thread from here as it is a bad topic for me with the politics involved. 

[padgett]

"declared Canada a national threat" oh snap, there goes all the snowbird dollars.

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

"declared Canada a national threat" oh snap, there goes all the snowbird dollars.

That was a while ago and as far as I know it didn't stop them much.  Not too many places in Canada that match Florida's daily weather/ temperatures in January or February.  Yeah they could skip the US and go to Mexico,  but from what I have heard lately,  the water is the least of your concerns down there. 

[Bhigdog]

4 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

That was a while ago and as far as I know it didn't stop them much.  Not too many places in Canada that match Florida's daily weather/ temperatures in January or February.  Yeah they could skip the US and go to Mexico,  but from what I have heard lately,  the water is the least of your concerns down there. 

So what it comes down to is this:..... Is your own personal ox being gored or is it some one elses?

That right there will drive the out rage or lack of same.

And so it goes.......bob

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

The US has been getting the shaft from almost every country.  It's time we put our best interest first.  Yes I'm sure mistakes will be made along the way,  but the old way of giving the farm away needs to be changed.  We are running out of farms to give away.  Atleast someone is trying.  The citizenry is getting tired of bleeding money and being the door matt for the world. 

[mike6024]

It wasn't that long ago Maytag quit making appliances, like washers, in the midwest. They transitioned most to mexico and still made some here, then gave up and moved it all out of the country. I have a Maytag washer that is probably 50, or 55 years  old and will keep it. It is very simple and well made.

 

In renegotiating NAFTA the afl-cio weighs in and says mexico needs minimum wages laws so that workers are at least paid a living wage, workplace safety laws, anti child labor law, etc. Mexico responds by laughing, saying you've got to be kidding, right?

 

AFL-CIO President Trumka has said, “We are working to try to get an agreement worthy of the American economy and the American worker.” Such an agreement, however, should prohibit investment decisions that increase poverty across North America, rather than accepting poverty and displacement as unfortunate byproducts of trade. It could mandate works councils to give unions power over company investment decisions, guarantee labor rights across borders, and even demilitarize the US-Mexico border itself.

 

http://aflcio.org/aboutleadershipstatements/trade-must-build-inclusive-economy-all

 

 

We reaffirm our commitment to labor rights and decent work for workers in all nations. Economic justice cannot be achieved by continuing to give global firms free rein to abuse workers and exploit the environment in a race to the bottom disguised as “free trade.” Nor can we allow trade agreements to be vehicles to achieve other corporate agendas that undermine the interests of working people and our families.

This is nowhere more true than in North America, where trade relations are governed by NAFTA. Its key failure was built into its structure: setting up a system of rigged trade, in which global firms could increase profits by transferring production to Mexico where they could take advantage of systemic worker repression, exploiting both U.S. and Mexican workers in the process. By design, NAFTA distorted power relationships in favor of global employers over workers, weakened worker bargaining power and encouraged the de-industrialization of the U.S. economy. NAFTA contains not a single rule to ensure that working people and our employers prosper together, even though its proponents falsely claimed that was the inevitable outcome.

After a quarter-century of this race to the bottom, workers in all three NAFTA countries find it more difficult to form unions and negotiate collective bargaining agreements. We face greater inequality. We face ever more powerful monopolies. And the United States faces a growing trade deficit, despite promises by the administration to address this imbalance.

Edited December 3, 2019 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

My take as a Northern neighbour is that much of the transfer of production was done by U.S. based companies. There were Chinese products on the market but they were very low end junk that had little impact out side of discount retailers. A lot of the same junk that was previously made in Hong Kong , Taiwan and similar locations.

Then retailers like Walmart started to get Chinese factory's involved in producing goods to Walmart's specification.  Finally many mainstream U.S. companies started looking at Chinese production of many products right across the spectrum , consumer goods as well as commercial  / industrial/ even aerospace products. But generally

made to order for U.S. based companies.  

 Eventually enough manufacturing knowledge passed from the U.S. that the Chinese were able to extend themselves into the world market.

I am oversimplifying however the biggest giveaway seems to have been willingly made by greedy U.S. companies looking for cheaper sources of production. Better profit margin this year without any vision of how things might evolve in 10 years time.

 

Here in Canada we were happy to be a somewhat cheaper outsource supplier for U.S. companies. And we in turn bought substantial quantities of U.S. products.  Our balance of trade although not perfect was mutually  acceptable for many years.

U.S. ( and Canadian } trade with China is far more one sided. Lots of stuff being imported, very little exports from the West to China. Over 30 years this has become a real problem.

 

Greg in Canada

 

[mercer09]

1912

 

I was stunned to see many models of Germanys BMW motorcycles being made in china. that takes a lot of trust. Some in their entirety.

 

Timberland shoes, which were of the finest quality, are now completely made in china. Quality is still pretty good, but not what it once was.

[39BuickEight]

1 hour ago, mercer09 said:

1912

 

I was stunned to see many models of Germanys BMW motorcycles being made in china. that takes a lot of trust. Some in their entirety.

 

Timberland shoes, which were of the finest quality, are now completely made in china. Quality is still pretty good, but not what it once was.

I find that is true of other shoe manufacturers as well.  I don’t know where they are made, but 2 in particular that I have bought multiple pairs of the same exact shoes that didn’t last as long as they used to are my New Balance soccer referee shoes and my Merrell hiking shoes.  I always thought there must be some shared ingredient in the soles of them both that has changed.  They are not nearly as durable as they used to be.

[mercer09]

 Yeah they could skip the US and go to Mexico,  but from what I have heard lately,  the water is the least of your concerns down there.

 

 

I went last Feb- was OK, but wont be going back. hit six banks and only one would accept the American dollar. as I was standing in line, asked for exchange rate...........

 

teller gave it to me and then dropped it slightly. I said, hurry up and cash my money before it goes to zero!

 

Mexican fella next to me laughed his arse off!

 

theyre general attitude was pissed....... nobody likes freebies taken away!  Let's support America and stop with all of the foreign handouts.

[padgett]

a) I stock Monopoly sets with currencies that went bust.

b) When I was a kid had a Philips Norelco stereo reel-reel recorders (first commercial one) and several shavers. After review of the Specs I took a cyber monday deal (sold out on Sunday) on a Philips 4K Android TV. Philips is Dutch but licensed its TVs to Funny (Japan) and it was made in Mexico. Seems very nice but a bit complicated so far.  No tariff yet.

[maok]

On 12/4/2019 at 9:51 AM, 1912Staver said:

My take as a Northern neighbour is that much of the transfer of production was done by U.S. based companies. There were Chinese products on the market but they were very low end junk that had little impact out side of discount retailers. A lot of the same junk that was previously made in Hong Kong , Taiwan and similar locations.

Then retailers like Walmart started to get Chinese factory's involved in producing goods to Walmart's specification.  Finally many mainstream U.S. companies started looking at Chinese production of many products right across the spectrum , consumer goods as well as commercial  / industrial/ even aerospace products. But generally

made to order for U.S. based companies.  

 Eventually enough manufacturing knowledge passed from the U.S. that the Chinese were able to extend themselves into the world market.

I am oversimplifying however the biggest giveaway seems to have been willingly made by greedy U.S. companies looking for cheaper sources of production. Better profit margin this year without any vision of how things might evolve in 10 years time.

 

Here in Canada we were happy to be a somewhat cheaper outsource supplier for U.S. companies. And we in turn bought substantial quantities of U.S. products.  Our balance of trade although not perfect was mutually  acceptable for many years.

U.S. ( and Canadian } trade with China is far more one sided. Lots of stuff being imported, very little exports from the West to China. Over 30 years this has become a real problem.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

This is Capitalism. In the west, we seem to like its freedoms but also hate the greed. Unfortunately capitalism is inherently just accepted human greed, inflation is its metric.

[padgett]

and stagflation (under 3%) ?

BTW GM sell more Caddys in China than the US. Good German cars.

[60FlatTop]

After WWII The Soviet Union occupied North Korea and the US took South Korea to dismantle the Japanese Empire. The big opportunity was to demonstrate the success of capitalism over communism. The lights in this picture represent US investment to make sure it worked. It is an American state. They just haven't done the paperwork. Our money keeps the lights on.

Edited December 6, 2019 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

On 12/5/2019 at 7:50 PM, maok said:

This is Capitalism. In the west, we seem to like its freedoms but also hate the greed. Unfortunately capitalism is inherently just accepted human greed, inflation is its metric.

 

As I see it, Capitalism is the freedom of opportunity. Most everyone is greedy, if they aren't, they don't have much unless it was given to them. Don't get jealous, get busy, anyone can do it.

 

Those complaining about the tariffs, simple solution, buy US goods, no tariffs. There is nothing unusual about the US having tariffs on imports, EVERY other nation on the planet has some form of tax on our imports. Randy mentioned he doesn't ship much to Mexico, that is because their tariffs about double the price of most good brought in. I too have been shipping all over the world and can state with utmost certainty, the US has been on the short end of every trade deal for the last 30 years. Canada has the least amount of duties/GST of any other I've shipped. Some of the Euro countries, like Italy and France have horrendous duties on our imports.

 

As Mercer points out, that 23 Trillion national debt isn't going away by itself.

 

Someone mentioned that we can eventually get things "back to normal". Us getting screwed on trade deals was never any sort of normalcy, it was extremely irresponsible and underhanded, fleecing our manufacturing sector. Biggest thievery in US history.

 

-Ron

[padgett]

Think the current thievery is just a pale shadow of what went on in the US following the War of Northern Aggression. In the 60s it was a joke (see "The Mouse That Roared") that the quick way to get rich was to lose a war with the US. 

 

And we are rich in comparison with the bulk of the world with unlimited communications, every food readily available in many places. Superstores whose shelves are rarely empty. A 75" "home cinema" is $500, about the same as a weekly grocery bill for a family. Buying "Clubs" with even more for less.

 

The country is so rich there are more lawyers than doctors in the phone book and many older people have new eyes and hips, even those who did not play football.

 

In fact if you look at nearly every war this century, we won (when didn't just quit) buy breaking the other guy. We were the only ones who could afford $10 million dollar propellers and the other guy went broke trying to keep up.

 

Where else could a retired guy have six cars & garages in a resort ?

[Frank DuVal]

17 hours ago, Locomobile said:

buy US goods, no tariffs.

 

Go ahead, try to buy electronic components that are made in the USA! Sure, there are a few high end chip manufacturers here, even some in Virginia. But for the small capacitors, resistors, LEDs, let me know if you ever see any made here.