PayPal is charging for Tariffs; 25% of the purchase

[Gunsmoke]

I think Matt Harwood's well reasoned summary covers most of what needs saying. A tariff war solves absolutely nothing, and has all kinds of unintended consequences, such as the lot the poor farmers find themselves in and the OP's gripe about "surcharges". The North American Economy should be the focus of current efforts, and the NAFTA and potentially NAFTA II were aimed at creating a stronger 3 country economy among its partners, with a combined population of about 500M. A strong Canadian economy, and a strong Mexican Economy are both good for the USA in the long run.

 

The second flank of trade positioning was the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) a trade undertaking aimed at setting up a strong trading regime between North America and it's Pacific Rim trading partners, exclusive of China. The proposed TPP pact (while not perfect) would have established a strong buttress among nations against China's perceived manipulation of trade practices (currency manipulation, theft of intellectual property,etc) let alone its huge population advantage. However, the incoming President cancelled this pending deal with no valid reason given, leaving the remaining countries with the task of forging a new agreement. While the current USA administration may believe they are a trading powerhouse who can go it alone, the reality is there is strength in numbers and Global Trade is a fact we all have to live with for the foreseeable future. With a world-wide population of 7B people, all of whom in this decade are trying to rise in the world vis-a-vis their standard of living, the USA can no longer rely on brute strength or financial leverage to have it's way.  The other countries do have a say, and at some point this reality will strike home.

[auburnseeker]

The TPP was another NAFTA masked in being better for us.  

Countries with substandard living and currency very weak against the US dollar plus a much lower pay rate often at 1/10 of ours will never be strong partners to trade with.  Their people can not afford our products.  You want free trade,  talk to the UK, Sweden ,Switzerland, Norway etc.  Places where the standard of living and pay rate are on par or even superior to ours.  Again you have to look at the overall population not the exceptions. These are the countries with high tarrifs against the US as well.  That's where I would be negotiating on trade.  

TPP was another disguised deal to drive a stake into whatever crumbs we have left. How many of those rims countries were on par with ours.  As usual it would give everything away and not offer much for us. 

They were saying how terrible it would be for us to pull out of the shipping deal as well.  Of course they are going to cry. When you are trading your Pinto even for a new Cadillac of course you don't want some one to say,  hey wait a minute I think we are getting the shaft on this deal.   About time the sales manager started checking the deals the salesmen are making. 

[Gunsmoke]

Auburnseeker, I'm not sure your thought of only trading with "equally strong countries" makes sense. As a hypothetical example (with lots of peripheral issues), suppose a Cuban company exports $100 worth of sugar cane to the USA and an American company exports $100 worth of Soy beans to Cuba. In a free/fair trade arrangement, neither country would slap a duty on the other countries product. The trade agreement between the 2 countries would not be based on the wealth of either country, their governance model, their leader's current predilections, or  the weather for the day!  Companies in both countries (importers and exporters) would know the trade rules and act and make long term investments accordingly. The problem with introducing tariffs unilaterally is that they are signalling some desire by one country to (1) gain an advantage, (2) punish a past deed, (3) collect tax revenue, (4) set an example for other possible partners, (5) score political points, etc. Other countries pay close attention and are not fooled by such tactics. They know if it is a poker game (all-in bluff) or a power play. As someone above said, wise countries look at the long term, big picture, and avoid short term gain with long term pain.

[mercer09]

Auburnseeker, I'm not sure your thought of only trading with "equally strong countries" makes sense. As a hypothetical example (with lots of peripheral issues), suppose a Cuban company exports $100 worth of sugar cane to the USA and an American company exports $100 worth of Soy beans to Cuba. In a free/fair trade arrangement, neither country would slap a duty on the other countries product. The trade agreement between the 2 countries would not be based on the wealth of either country, their governance model, their leader's current predilections, or  the weather for the day!  Companies in both countries (importers and exporters) would know the trade rules and act and make long term investments accordingly. The problem with introducing tariffs unilaterally is that they are signalling some desire by one country to (1) gain an advantage, (2) punish a past deed, (3) collect tax revenue, (4) set an example for other possible partners, (5) score political points, etc. Other countries pay close attention and are not fooled by such tactics. They know if it is a poker game (all-in bluff) or a power play. As someone above said, wise countries look at the long term, big picture, and avoid short term gain with long term pain.

 

easy to say when you dont come from America.................

 

what has our country done since inducing NAFTA to Americas benefit??????????????????

 

WE'VE GIVEN IT ALL AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NICE JOB.

 

iF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME, LOOK AT OUR DEFICIT SINCE KENNEDY WAS IN OFFICE.

[Joe in Canada]

20 hours ago, mike6024 said:

That's a weird response you wrote. Yes I expect the tariff to be incorporated into the price. And if I don't like the total price I don't buy it.

Someone may be trying to show you in your billing  the reason for the price increase. Be thankful they are showing the tariff set by your present government  and not trying to hide it in the price .

I do not know anyone that went shopping on Black Friday south of the boarder because of the higher prices from the tariffs in the US. 

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

I do not know anyone that went shopping on Black Friday south of the boarder because of the higher prices from the tariffs in the US

 

Having to pay C1.25 to buy an item marked $1.00 may have been a factor.....Eh..........Bob

[Chris Bamford]

It's impossible to keep politics completely out of any serious discussion of trade and tariffs, the policies around which are set by politicians who invariably act and react from a range of motivations and priorities.

 

Having said that, I'm borderline amazed that this discussion has remained civil — and active.

 

Thank you posters and moderators.

[auburnseeker]

I would say the weak Canadian Dollar may have kept more people at bay than the Tarrifs. Also alot of people are internet shopping now so no need to travel.  Especially with Cyber Monday coming up. 

We have alot of Canadian Shoppers in our area normally.  I didn't go shopping except to get a Christmas tree,  so I steered clear of the outlets area but when I glanced over at the few parking lots i passed at major retailers they were all full to the edge and that was Saturday afternoon not Friday Morning.  Not sure how many were from Canada but I can't imagine there wasn't the usual large numbers.  Seemed to be quite a bit of traffic from the North on the Interstate which is usually Canadian traffic or people headed back to Jersey. 

 

 

So actually if the cost of cheap (price and in Quality) tools has gone up,  hasn't that done what it was meant to do, make customers search out other options and maybe spend more for better tools?  If I have the choice of buying a good or crappy tool,   I will spend more for the better tool.  I may go the used route as well to get a good tool. 

Does anyone know if American made tools have gone up with the Tarrifs?  We know raw steel went up some, but how much steel cost wise is in a wrench that they charge $20 or more for. 

If you want poor quality cheap tools,  you can buy piles of them at estate and garage sales for near nothing.  Atleast that money will stay here. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

The thread did identify a challenge for those of us in the Canadian market place trying to afford to restore an old car. Ignoring the issue of tariffs (which would add another burden), if I buy a part in Illinois for $100 and ship it for $20 to a friend's place in Maine for pick-up, my cost is US$120 or $160Can (current exchange rate about 33%)(allowing no cost for pick-up, I have a friend who passes thru there regularly). If I ship the part direct from Illinois to me, cost is $100+$40 shipping or $140. Exchange adds $47 bringing total to $187Can, and then a further 15% Fed/Prov sales tax is added at this end, ($28Can), so landed cost is close to $215Can. So when I shop eBay for example (who between them and paypal add another 10% or so ) I always double the price listed to reflect all the associated costs. Stops me from being shocked when I get my invoice from Paypal. The overall result - restoring an old car is becoming outrageously expensive, and due to artificial cost burdens. Our exchange rate with the US$ has bounced between par and -35% over the past 10+ years due to currency exchange manipulation by big investors, and has most recently dropped due to the low price of oil, one of Canada's major resource exports. But I'm still having fun, can't take it with you.

[C Carl]

Sometimes very high quality tools do turn up at garage and estate sales. But, there is a lot of overhead shopping that way. Oh for the good old days of the Boeing Surplus retail store here ! THAT  was real hard to beat ! I would like to take this opportunity to salute our fine Northern neighbors. Can not imagine any country in the world having such a great friend across any border. Whether you buy anything from here or not !      -    Carl 

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

The thread did identify a challenge for those of us in the Canadian market place trying to afford to restore an old car. Ignoring the issue of tariffs (which would add another burden), if I buy a part in Illinois for $100 and ship it for $20 to a friend's place in Maine for pick-up, my cost is US$120 or $160Can (current exchange rate about 33%)(allowing no cost for pick-up, I have a friend who passes thru there regularly). If I ship the part direct from Illinois to me, cost is $100+$40 shipping or $140. Exchange adds $47 bringing total to $187Can, and then a further 15% Fed/Prov sales tax is added at this end, ($28Can), so landed cost is close to $215Can. So when I shop eBay for example (who between them and paypal add another 10% or so ) I always double the price listed to reflect all the associated costs. Stops me from being shocked when I get my invoice from Paypal. The overall result - restoring an old car is becoming outrageously expensive, and due to artificial cost burdens. Our exchange rate with the US$ has bounced between par and -35% over the past 10+ years due to currency exchange manipulation by big investors, and has most recently dropped due to the low price of oil, one of Canada's major resource exports. But I'm still having fun, can't take it with you.

Buy from sellers that sell directly to Canada personally without the whole global shipping BS. Buy multiple items as well to save on shipping.  I have several customers in Canada I ship hundreds of dollars,  sometimes over $1000 worth of brochures at a time and this is in a two week period. (same ones that are currently building piles now)  That's the only way to get a deal.  Again if we hadn't been abused in the shipping department for years we would be able to ship it to you north of the border more reasonably.  

The whole roller coaster ride of currency value against the US dollar has been that way for years and nothing will change.  The fact your dollar is weaker against ours and much of the world's means something is headed in the right direction for us.  You only have a strong dollar when your country is doing well,  not bleeding jobs and place in the market. 

[auburnseeker]

58 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Sometimes very high quality tools do turn up at garage and estate sales. But, there is a lot of overhead shopping that way. Oh for the good old days of the Boeing Surplus retail store here ! THAT  was real hard to beat ! I would like to take this opportunity to salute our fine Northern neighbors. Can not imagine any country in the world having such a great friend across any border. Whether you buy anything from here or not !      -    Carl 

You can get some great deals on used tools on Craigslist and Facebook.  Bought a nice Matco tool box/ Cart for $500.  They retail over $1000.  Lots of toolboxes and sets of tools posted.  Guys always moving out of the area or changing occupations looking to sell their tools.  Usually Matco , Snap On MAC etc.  Lots of Husky, and Craftsmen stuff even cheaper. 

[61polara]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:10 PM, Graham Man said:

so these are US sellers adding the 25% to the purchase of the product.

This is so wrong.  The 25% tariff is on the cost of the goods not the retail price.  I don't know of any retailer selling normal priced goods at cost.  The cost of the item is the only cost to the seller taxed by the tariff.  The shipping cost, marketing and additional packaging as well as US warehousing and administrative costs are not taxed by the tariff, but are costs to the seller.  To try to collect an additional 25% on the sales price is an outright scam.

[trini]

The Americans manufacturers in China bring their products from China and pay the tariffs to the  US authorities and then passes on the taxes to the consumers here . Who is fooling Whom ? China is not paying a dime for sure.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Ronnie
Removed political statement. (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

It's nice to see a topic about government, economics and tariffs can be discussed without throwing politics into it.  I hope this topic continues on that path.

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, trini said:

The Americans manufacturers in China bring their products from China and pay the tariffs to the  US authorities and then passes on the taxes to the consumers here . Who is fooling Whom ? China is not paying a dime for sure.

Some of the manufactures have lowered the price they charge for the products so that essentially they can be sold for the same price to the reseller.  Effectively they are paying the tariff that way. (better to produce and sell at a lower profit  than to not sell at all and have to shutter the factory)   I still say some items , especially non essential ones,  have a certain sell point.  Above that no one will buy them.  So they have to maintain that price level. 

It's really no different every time the post office raises postal rates.  My 10.00 item in your hands sells for say 4 you pay 6 in shipping and have the item.  If they raise their rates to 7 you will only bid 3 to get it.  If everyone bids only 3 figuring they are paying the same shipping as you then the new selling point is 3.  Since it's a non essential item I can ask 4 all day long,  it's still a $10 item in your lap so you wont buy it for 4.  You will wait until I am hungry and willing to take the 3.  I see it all the time with what I sell.  Which makes it hard to buy. Every time Ebay pay pal or the USPS decides to give themselves a raise it means my bottom line goes up and my profit goes down,  because no one pays more,  I just get less. 

I simplified numbers.  You can add any number in you want but I actually do sell alot of 3.00 items with 6.00 shipping so I walk away with a buck after every one gets their cut.  I don't survive on these,  but use the smaller percentage of good performing items which are harder to come by to offset all the duds.  At the end of the day though,  usually almost everything is sold.  That's why I do it that way.  I don't sit around with all my museum exhibits like other vendors.  I sell it and move on.  In the end i probably make more but it's more through volume than individual high sales.  Yes more work,  but being I'm late to the game,  I don't have a huge hoard to work from.  I buy around $4,000 a month on average in literature to resell.  I've spent as much as $15,000 one month. 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm getting ahead.  

I can honestly say with all the free trade and Items I have shipped around the world,  I have never ever shipped a car part or a piece of literature and that's over 10,000 pieces I sell a year to China in the last over 10 years I have been doing this. Honestly with all the old cars in Mexico,  I ship at most 1 item or order of 1 or two items to Mexico a year. 

Canada is my biggest importer, followed by European Countries, then Australia. Maybe one item a year to South America and a random item or two to Africa or the Middle East a year.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

Honestly with all the old cars in Mexico,  I ship at most 1 item or order of 1 or two items to Mexico a year. 

Canada is my biggest importer, followed by European Countries, then Australia.

 

So how many non-English publications do you normally have for sale? It seems English speaking countries are your best customers, I would say "that is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer".😁

[trini]

I remember sometimes in the 1980's Dan Rather on the 630 CBS news mentioned  the price of an Arrow shirt made in China costing  7 dollars and was selling by Macy or some other store for 40 dollars. The store had outsourced the work. The point he was trying to make is taking advantage of poor workers slave like labour and making  a huge profit. Profit is an indecent word in some quarters. He was referring to the huge spread in profit. The US consumer did not benefit. Next time you go on vacation and get an artifact at a very low price, the end game is somebody wins and somebody looses. That is reality. That is how the world spins.   When greed comes through  the front door ethics and honesty flies through the window.  

[Gunsmoke]

Sometimes we cannot see the forest for the trees. Facts: The US Economy is today the strongest in the world, and appears to be well positioned to stay there. The unemployment rate is at an historic low. As a very wealthy country, it's citizens have more discretionary money to spend than any other country on the planet (the old car hobby for example?). As a result of it's great wealth, it is a "consumption" country, and it's population buys more goods and services from other countries than other countries can afford to buy from the USA. This imbalance of wealth between countries is the primary reason for several things: It causes the USA to run a large trade deficit world-wide (not China's fault, not France's fault, not Mexico's fault). Because the standard of living is so high, wages are high generally compared to the rest of the world, and so over the past 50-60 years, companies have sought ways to manufacture goods off-shore in order to keep American consumers satisfied with prices.

 

But the resulting economic model is still a very strong one. A company buys a well made dress shirt in China/Vietnam/Bangladesh for $5, and it eventually retails for $100. The company and it's wholesalers employ warehousers, stockers, shippers, truckers, retail sales people and managers to sell the shirt, never mind the property and buildings they develop with the profit. In a nutshell that is the nature of the modern economy in North America. The "what some may call" menial tasks are out-sourced, and the rest of the margins are on-shore. It is a clear solid global economic model, being used in all western industrialized countries. Anyone advocating returning all these menial jobs to the USA is blowing wind. No one would want a return to sweat shops.

 

The trade war begun with China is senseless, as the economic model running the USA is not one China is creating. It is created by American business interests, and it is a good one. The biggest problems faced in the USA are not of China's making. There is a huge wealth gap, the top 1% of population control 90% of the wealth. China has not caused that. Health care costs 3x the cost of health care in any other industrialized country and some people have no coverage. China has not caused that. Deaths by gun is 50-100 times higher than most industrialized countries, China has not caused that. More citizens reside in jails than any other developed country. Not China's fault.

 

My point is that China has become an easy target because they do have some unacceptable trade practices. However, solving those matters (intellectual property, currency manipulation) requires a global partnership approach, and not unilateral action. America is a great country, the envy of the world in many respects, but it needs to begin respecting other countries and their rights and challenges, and return to being a full partner in the world affairs.

 

 

[padgett]

We have always had a "different" model. My favourite is the antics of Jim Fisk and Jay Gould in the 19th. Personally, I have price points. For me the most common is $100. I buy dress shirts at 3 for $100. My current cell phone was $100. When interesting technology hits $100 delivered I usually buy.

 

This black Friday I splurged and bought a 75" UHD HDR 4k more alphabet smart TV to replace my decade-old 55" not so smart Sony that will go into the guest room & a lot because it has a headphone jack: six bucks. Sold out almost immediately. Bought from my desktop. Supposedly not made in China.

 

SOA for consumers right now is 82", expect 100" within five years but this is "enough" for now. Just add a recliner and a cat.

[auburnseeker]

10 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

 

So how many non-English publications do you normally have for sale? It seems English speaking countries are your best customers, I would say "that is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer".😁

Actually I have alot of foreign literature on occasion and most of that english or foreign language stay in the country.   I rarely (Except for some French pieces to Canada) sell foreign language pieces to places overseas.  They usually buy the American version in English. Makes sense.  It's easier to buy a brochure in your own language from your own country.  You would buy in a different language from another country as you would rarely have them available in your country. 

[auburnseeker]

The problem with the US being the partner is we are never perceived as the partner,  We are perceived as the gullible sap with an open check book.  Well we used to be.  I think the US does more than it's share around the world. Natural disaster in any country results in instant aid from our country.  We protect many countries with our military so those Gov'ts don't have to foot the bill for a full military.  Without our presence those countries would have been taken over by their neighbors.  We might be the wealthiest country but we spend it to help others all around the world.   We are also wealthy because of that freedom our founding Father's fought for so we could forge a strong country that fosters innovation with the least possible intrusion from the Govt.  The freedom is sometimes hard for others from other countries to understand and why our country has gotten to the position it's in.  It's from the fostering of enterprise not stifling it like some Govt's around the world have done. 

[60FlatTop]

China has been subsidizing their manufacturers to undercut US manufactured products for years. They can uncut a lot of US businesses that way for the cost of a military tank. It is a strategy. And one that has been working very well. The price can be made even sweeter if the retailer agrees not to buy US made products. That's where the professional purchasing agent sells out.

Just imagine spreading out the cost of two or three jet fighters to American businesses to help pay for unfunded federal mandates, there'd be chaos in Washington of that idea. Looks fine in China.

 

The last President put a 35% tax on  Asian made tires, not that newsworthy, I guess. Not many knew.

 

There has been a war going on for quite a few years, ask the furniture companies in North Carolina.

 

US imports going into China have faced a 75% tariff. Our companies working there know. Maybe not so much of the public.

 

Anyone remember the stories about Detroit converting to build war equipment. Detroit is not so capable today. Maybe a 36 month lease on a Hyundai tank?

[TerryB]

Chinese workers are underpaid and would never be able to afford American goods.  From my son’s trip there in March for work.  The rickshaw and straw hat days are long gone.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history)

[TerryB]

A few more pics

 

[JACK M]

I was in China a couple of years ago and was surprised at many unfinished apartment looking buildings.

[Bhigdog]

33 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I was in China a couple of years ago and was surprised at many unfinished apartment looking buildings.

 

Central planning......bob

 

[TerryB]

16 minutes ago, JACK M said:

I was in China a couple of years ago and was surprised at many unfinished apartment looking buildings.

I was there in 2001-2005 for work.  I was transferring technology to build color TV tubes to a factory the company I worked for had purchased from a Chinese company.  The big idea that was causing problems was that the housing that the old company provided to the workers at little or no charge under the typical communist method of operating would go away and workers would now have to buy and pay for it.  Mortgages were unheard of and the idea of paying for 20 to 30 years for a house or apartment was hard to understand after living so long under the communist way of doing things.  This info came from the English version of a Chinese newspaper I had each day at the hotel along with a lot of Chinese views on the western world.  The big apartment buildings next to the factory where I was were mostly vacant as the transfer of ownership to the workers was going on.

 

The photos I posted were from Shanghai where my son was meeting with potential vendors for his employer.  He has been to South Korea, Germany, and Thailand for similar meetings.  Manufacturing and supplier relations are global undertakings for most every company today.

[Gunsmoke]

China , like the USA and most countries has a wide gap in incomes between the wealthy and the poor. 1% of Chinese population owns over 2/3 of all private wealth. While cities like Shanghai are relatively prosperous, they do not reflect the reality of China as a whole. Per-capita annual income in cities is about US$3000, or $9000 per family of 3, and in rural areas it is $1000 per capita or $3000 per family of 3. Having said that, their governance/economic model is so different from ours, that comparing incomes is not of much value. Their economy is not based on consumption, but rather is based on production. Yes, easier do do in an authoritarian country. While this overall topic has endless paths to follow, and a few rabbit holes to go down, the reality is that China is so vastly different from western countries in its model of governance and life style, that little is gained by superficial ponderings.

[TerryB]

We’ll take away their junk food and see how that goes!

 

 

[auburnseeker]

27 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Per-capita annual income in cities is about US$3000, or $9000 per family of 3, and in rural areas it is $1000 per capita or $3000 per family of 3.

Hard to believe they will consume an y of the high end products in large scale with these income levels.  I'm too lazy to research the US incomes,  I would have to think we are at a minimum 10 times as much.   What does a new average vehicle cost in China, compared to a comparable model in the States?  Does it need to have all the safety features and emmissions ours have?  

[trini]

Regardless what we say or discuss the fact remains North America is the land of 'milk and honey" People from all over the world spend years as refugees in different countries before finally reaching their goals Canada or the US. The US is the first country to jump in the fray to help a fellow country in trouble. It is a daunting task to bridge the gap between the rich and poor countries. As long as there is "poor' there is going to be "rich"

[TerryB]

39 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

Hard to believe they will consume an y of the high end products in large scale with these income levels.  I'm too lazy to research the US incomes,  I would have to think we are at a minimum 10 times as much.   What does a new average vehicle cost in China, compared to a comparable model in the States?  Does it need to have all the safety features and emmissions ours have?  

I don’t think there are China only spec F150s.  Sure looks like a US vehicle.  Price can depend on tariffs and shipping which seems to be what started this topic.  Most Americans have not seen the radical changes China has gone through and the wealth they are gaining which is my reason for the pics I posted here.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by TerryB (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

Wiki says the USA with about 340M people has 275M vehicles, 0.85 vehicles per person, more by sheer # and ratio than any country in the world. China with 1.8B people has 250M vehicles, or 0.18 vehicle per person, or about 20% of the ratio in USA. The vast majority of Chinese families cannot afford a vehicle at all, of any type. As stated previously, trying to make any kind of comparison between the lifestyle average Chinese citizens have versus average citizens of Western industrialized countries is fraught with pitfalls. Similarly, India, with 1.3B people has only 22M vehicles, a ratio of about .02 vehicles per capita, and less than 2% of the ratio for USA.  The 2 countries combined have over 3B people and not as many cars as the USA. So I don't anticipate Ford/GM/Chrysler are doing much sales or promotion in those markets.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[mercer09]

China is not paying a dime for sure.

 

 

but there economy has suffered greatly over the last year from our tariffs.

 

I have a few chinese friends and we talk.

 

Randy, the per capita income in china is now over 10k a yr. We are still stagnant in the mid 50s.............

China was at just 4k about 10 yrs ago. We havent moved in several decades, because we gave it all away. I know our Canadian friends dont enjoy hearing it, but it is fact. truth of the matter is, nobody cares unless its them.................

[mike6024]

I think American companies consider the China market very important, be it General Motors, Apple, etc.

 

China was growing their economy at something like 2.5 times the rate os the US. And with their population there is much more growth potential there than in the US.

 

 

[mercer09]

 

China was growing their economy at something like 2.5 times the rate os the US. And with their population there is much more growth potential there than in the US.

 

 

 

absolutely true, as long as their communist gov doesnt step in, then all bets are off. Happens every day over there. people go to jail and are never seen again........

[Gunsmoke]

Mercer, I don't think the rhetoric "China is suffering greatly due to the US tariffs" holds any water, and is an unsubstantiated statement often made by the administration without any real evidence being provided. As well, there is no evidence any businesses of substance have changed their buying habits due to the tariffs. They will not change since the perception is that the tariff war is likely short term, and then it will be back to business as usual.

 

As for average incomes, my research indicates that average annual income for Chinese citizens is currently US$3000 ($9000 per family) in urban areas, and US$1000 ($3000 per family) in Rural areas, so I'm not sure where you arrive at $10K per capita per year (that would put household income at $US30K+). It is hard to find solid verifiable income data for all countries due to different currencies, methods of calculating tax and subsidy implications etc. However, a 2013 survey of the top 35 countries in the world had US average income at $43,600, Canada at $41,300, EU countries at typically $30K-$40K, and for comparison, Russia at $11.8K, and Mexico at $11,700 (35th in the world). The same report had China's average at US$6000, and India's at US$3000.  In the big picture, most reports show US average incomes growing, but when discounted for inflation, not much movement. I only provide this data to demonstrate that other than Canada and Europe (and perhaps some oil power houses like the Arab countries), the USA's trading partners are relatively poor, and not in much of a position to purchase US goods. I'm wrapping up my role in this subject, too many old car tasks await.

[Joe in Canada]

5 hours ago, mercer09 said:

I know our Canadian friends dont enjoy hearing it, but it is fact. truth of the matter is, nobody cares unless its them.................

By the time Christmas comes there will only be one assembly plant each for Ford Chrysler & GM left in Canada. With a total of less than 125,000 people in part manufacturing and assembly for all of Canada in the auto industry. When they were renegotiating NAFTA I do not know where someone was getting all his facts from but not much of it was true. Just google and you will see the press is correct on their reporting. Canada is suffering a great deal more than the US in manufacturing. Check your facts!  

 

One example of automotive in Canada that will be gone by the end of the year. At one time, The Oshawa factory was one of the largest auto manufacturing facilities in the world, with two car assembly plants, a truck assembly plant, as well as parts production including Harrison radiators, AC Delco batteries (for both GM and other vehicle manufacturers) and America Axles. Between 1999 and 2019, it had won more quality and productivity awards than any other GM plant. Quality does not mean a thing when profit is involved almost all went to Mexico or China.  

             

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[padgett]

Errr last year more Cadillacs were sold in China than the US.